Lower the Number of International Slots in MLS

Dempsey also benefitted from injuries on the team and then made sure he never lost his spot.

 

You are correct in that they aren’t required to sign internationals (and it’s not even illegal to publicly take that stance). Where you were wrong on the other thread and you’re still wrong here is that it’s illegal to say you’ll only sign US citizens and not other players legally able to work in the US without a visa (green card holders, refugees, etc). Employers must treat Clint Dempsey and Giles Barnes (who holds a green card) the same way, even though Dempsey is eligible for the Nats and Barnes is only eligible for Jamaica.

(If they really wanted to pursue a Team America idea they might be able to do something like how the women’s Nats in NWSL get paid by the USSF to get around it, but I can’t imagine the other MLS owners agreeing to that)

 

And we’re back to the same place point where we were in the last thread, the idea that a team would publicly be Team America and as such, their illegal bias would be well know. That was the scenario being discussed that you jumped into and stated we were wrong.

Even if they weren’t public they probably couldn’t keep the charade up for more than a couple of seasons.

 

Vieira hates Americans: Maxime Chanot was the club's vice-captain at the beginning of the season. Sebastian Ibeagha, who was in the USL last year, has started 9 of NYCFC's last 11 matches in his place, dating back to almost two months before Vieira left. Chanot. Although Chanot was injured for two games during that time, he lost his place in the first-choice starting lineup three weeks before his injury. Similarly, to demonstrate that Ronald Matarrita was displaced from the lineup while healthy: Ben Sweat had 8 starts to Matarrita's 4 at the time Matarrita left for World Cup training camp (where he got injured).

Garde hates Americans so much that he started Ken Krolicki, an American rookie drafted in the third round this season, as an attacking central midfielder on opening day. Krolicki has started 12 of 20 matches this season; he started 7 of the first 8, lost his place in the lineup with a formation change, and won it back a little over a month later. Meanwhile, Marco Donadel, a presumptive starter in central midfield, started only one match all season (filling in at center back for injured/suspended players), was mostly an unused sub when available, and got released in June. Since Montreal is a Canadian team, let's also note that Matteo Mancosu was benched for 25-year-old Canadian Anthony Jackson-Hamel for a month. (From 5/5 to 6/2, Jackson-Hamel had 4 starts, Mancosu had 1, and both were healthy as evidenced by their presence on the bench for every match they didn't start.)

 

In what state are you admitted to practice, and how many employment discrimination cases have you litigated?

If there's a pattern of discrimination in playing time, and the player has any evidence that it's because of a policy of discrimination, that's enough to proceed to discovery. (Oh, and if a team is marketing itself as any kind of "Team America" that's enough by itself.) If discovery turns up an actual policy, at that point the lawsuit is a slam-dunk. Any halfway competent plaintiff's-side employment lawyer would immediately link playing time to future employment prospects.

 

The whole point of this thread appears to be to ignore reality.
Players 19-30 in MLS today get infinitely more playing time than in the early days of the league because in the early days of the league the roster was capped at 18. It grew gradually after that.
It's only been at the current number for a couple years.
Your entire argument is based on what appears to be a deep pain stemming from the fact that you didn't get to watch the USMNT play 3 or 4 or 5 games of mediocre footie this summer. Your solution is to lower the standard of play in hundreds of games this summer/season/forever, in MLS.
Very few, if any, lovers of the game will agree with your POV.
Real soccer is club soccer. Nats play is the cherry on top of the sunday. It's a nice treat but if that was all there was, it would pretty much suck.
MLS is much better than it used to be and is still improving, rapidly. As far as MLS is concerned, that's all that matters, and it should be what matters to people who actually love the game.

 

It's the same argument we've been having for decades, dealing with folks in the US who really, deep down, hate the game. MLS now stands in for soccer in this case, and the detractors have affected a snobbish and uninformed attitude about the quality but Nats-first and only fans are just a new breed of this idiocy. "I can't support MLS because a. it isn't as good as the Prem or La Liga, or b. they don't have pro/rel so it isn't a real champsionship or c. they don't play as many young players as I would " are the new "The Green Bay Packers play real football." arguments.
After 50 years of dealing with this crap, we're programmed to take the bait.

 

/points back to when MLS's quality and reputation were extremely low, sees draft players making first team minutes

/complains that today, the same league with improved quality and marketability to better players at home and abroad, draft players don't get as many first team minutes as they used to.

 

I'm not sure there's a case around playing time, but there's certainly a case around players being signed (or not) based on being citizens vs. green card holders.

He is, of course, wrong and he will, of course, not admit it.

 

And you're moving the goalposts in order to claim MLS is failing to bring players through.

This started out as a claim Americans are always sent to the bench in favor of foreigners. The goalposts have been now moved to MLS failing because unheralded rookies (excluding any who were considered top prospects) are not becoming stars of the USMNT (getting caps and even becoming regular starters isn't enough). That's something that's literally never happened at any time in MLS history. The only example you've provided is Dempsey, who wasn't so unheralded after all, seeing as he was a U-20 national team player and a Project-40 signing.

 

Couple quick points: Soccer is a team game. National teams aren't really teams. Players get together for a tourney, then disperse, and unless they make it deep into a tournament, they never really get on the same page. WCup teams sometimes have very impressive talent, but are always less than the sum of their parts.
Clubs sometimes have lesser talent, but are often much more than the sum of their parts.
MLS clubs, as is the case around the world with professional clubs, play much better soccer than WCup all-star teams. The reasons are simple. They play a lot more football as a team. So yes, real football is club. Clubs have more intense preseasons than nats have "seasons." Clubs play 40 games and up a year. The players know each other well and move together. they know down to the details what they're trying to accomplish.
National teams lack this level of understanding and it often makes for painfully naive soccer. FFS, Argentina this summer, they had one approach, and only one, and their players didn't really get that.
German tv gives really good tactical breakdowns after each match. the spacing, the movement, the gaps on display were at best basic.
Beyond that, national tams play a couple games at a time. Clubs play 9 months a year, year in and year out. If you don't like the sport, I guess I can see the attraction of national team play. You don't get the tactics and you're wowed by big names (who are impressive) and its fun to see the players you like to swap around on video games.
But don't think those of us who actually like the game and study the game share your naive view of it.
And, yes, of course, I believe MLS is improving and rapidly, and that's kind of obvious.
Just to be clear, if the price of MLS continuing to improve at the pace it is means that the USMNT loses every match they play from here on out, I'm good with that. I will sacrifice three to six all-star games a year in exchange for 30-40 smartly played professional matches.
That said, I've enjoyed this WCup. It's a been a nice summer treat. Not exactly sure how the US playing would have improved it.

 

One thing that I think needs to be added, regarding draft picks succeeding in MLS: 1) there are more players drafted per year now because there are so many more teams, and 2) the academy system has weakened the draft pool because so many top prospects are signed as Homegrown players.

On the first point: Dempsey was a late first-round draft pick when he entered the league, but today 8th in the draft is considered an early pick -- it's still the first half of the first round.

As to the second point: MLS Homegrown territories currently cover well over half of the US population, and both of the soccer hotbeds that aren't in a MLS homegrown territory (South Florida and North Carolina) are heavily recruited by MLS academies. Anyone who is in the draft at all has fallen through some cracks to get there. In 2004, all the top prospects entered the draft, which pushed everyone farther down. Everyone drafted in the first round would have been considered a top prospect.

If Dempsey were going pro today, there's a high likelihood he'd have already signed with FC Dallas as a Homegrown player before the draft. Six of the seven players picked before Dempsey in 2004 went to high school in current MLS metro areas; under today's circumstances, all or most of those would probably have signed Homegrown deals before the draft too, so hypothetical 2018 rookie Dempsey is almost certainly a top-3 draft pick if he doesn't sign a Homegrown deal first, even assuming that he's the 8th-highest-rated potential rookie.

By the way, you have to go through the entire first two rounds of the 2004 draft to reach 3 players who didn't go to high school in a current MLS Homegrown territory -- and two of those three players were foreign. (The one American was from North Carolina, which, again, would have been heavily scouted.) This really explains why so many first-round draft picks today are international: most of the top US prospects have already signed as Homegrowns.

 

So, I've been giving this some thought. I didn't want to just knee jerk react to the discussion (the jerk part might be a thing). I feel like we are making an assumption that it is the MLS's purpose to develop players for the USMNT, this is not true. The MLS is driven by money and more money comes from a better product on the field. Conversely many of the better American players decide to go overseas to develop rather than play in order to max their development.

Personally I do not believe that the slightly downward trend in American player is all that concerning, in fact, I think the MLS's priority needs to be fielding teams that play intelligent and competitive football. If you have 32 teams with nothing but Americans and they play sloppy football, this is not going to do the USMNT any good at all.

I just got done watching perhaps the most beautiful half of MLS soccer I've seen to date... LAFC is hosting Portland Timbers and the football has been brilliant, both teams playing intelligent but aggressive, playing it safe when needed taking chances when they are presented and while the score is 0-0, both teams have had attacking magic requiring solid goaltending /defense.

On the other hand, I remember watching a game last year between San Jose and Colorado (I think... I have tried to block out the memory). The two teams made so many stupid mistakes it was a shame to see either team come away with points. If a few, more internationals can make teams competitive so that the Americans that do play in MLS are that much better, I say, so be it.

Football is the most international sport there is, if we build a better league we will reap the rewards, if we need to improve American footballing talent lets put it on the youth academies or the USL rather than the top league.

In conclusion MORE American players will not help the national program, average players won't help: BETTER American players will help and I promise you, if a player is good enough to compete for an a spot on the USMNT they will be given a spot starting in the MLS.

 

Great post.

One thing. It's not just MLS that is driven by money. Players go to bigger teams in order to make more money. Mbappe went to PSG to make more money (he's 19 and making $20M/yr). Make no mistake, developing as a player is a by product of players moving abroad, but it's not the sole reason. Pulisic will eventually transfer to another team. Why? To make more money (he's making $8M/yr currently).

For years US players moved to Scandinavia to play professional club football................why? To make more money. They offered higher salaries compared to MLS at that time.

Beckham came to MLS because they offered him more money, and living in LA allowed him to grow his brand in order to make more money after his playing days were over. Ibra has come to LA in order to grow his brand to make more money when he closes the curtain on his playing career.

 

Haven't had time to double-check these numbers, but here's a quick look:

• In the entire 2017 season, domestic teenagers played 9985 @MLS minutes

• in the ~50% complete 2018 season, domestic teenagers have played 10,538 @MLS minutes

Tweet from Matt Doyle

 

I decided to look up the numbers, then got bored with the process so... It looks like a good stat. A mitigating factor might be that last year there were U-20 qs and Cup and that took away quite a few MLS tied players for much of the first half of the season. but overall, it looks this way, as more and more academies come online and we start to see solid players being developed through them and USL.

 

That number will likely double by the end of the season too (baring any injuries).