Lower divisions should be # 1 priority

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Ruben Rivas, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    I don’t know how we are going to fix this mess but the sonner we fix it, the sooner we come up with a serious lower divisions plan for the next 10 years, the better it is...
     
  2. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What’s your issue with it?

    I can tell you mine....

    One, let’s forget about promotion/relegation to and from MLS. This has been beat to death, and personally, it’s simply boring. I like the playoff format where teams are competing to be in the top of the table instead of trying not to be in the bottom. From a psychology standpoint, it’s a much more positive, proactive vs negative, reactive approach. That said, promotion/relegation may have a place in the lower leagues. For instance, since the lower leagues are not driven by media exposure like the top tier; the focus is more on play than the dollar aspect of entertainment value.

    For this to happen, things need to be put in place first. The USSF needs to decide what is the NASL’s role, and how is it compared to the higher functioning USL. This may not come until MLS finally reaches 30-32 teams in expansion; which the sooner that happens, the sooner the lower divisions can really be solidified. What, in my opinion, we need to agree on that MLS is in the top media markets; NASL is in the mid size metros, USL is a MLS reserve and also in the smaller metros, whereas D3 or what might be called D4 really, is in the small markets. In addition, the lower leagues need to be much more regionalized in conferences, to cut down on travel costs. To add, each MLS team should have to have a reserve team that plays in or nearby the home city in the lower leagues. Teams can affiliate with other teams too. To conclude, teams can rise and fall down the lower league ladder based on performance.

    More so, we need a legitimate, u23 premier league, that is focused in the major college towns, and is also a u21 MLS league. The problem with the PDL is the planning for the clubs is all jacked up. For instance, Greenwood, SC has a team but Clemson doesn’t. Thats what’s infuriating about the PDL is a complete lack of understanding that a u23 league should be where the college kids are located. To add, each MLS team should have to have a u21 team, where the player’s “salary” is tuition to attend a local college.

    Example of Model:

    MLS:
    North: DC United, Philadelphia Union, New York City FC, New York Red Bulls, New England Revolution, Montreal Impact, Toronto FC

    South: Atlanta United, Orlando City, FC Dallas, Houston Dynamo, Miami*, San Antonio*, Charlotte*, Nashville*

    East: Chicago Fire, Columbus Crew, Minnesota United, Real Salt Lake, Colorado Rapids, Sporting Kansas City, Saint Louis*, Indy Eleven*

    West: LA Galaxy, Los Angeles FC, Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Vancouver Whitecaps, San Jose Earthquakes, Sacramento Republic, Phoenix*

    ——

    Now, just looking at the Southern Region:

    D1: Charleston Battery, Raleigh Railhawks, Richmond Kickers, Rio Grande Valley Toros, Tampa Bay Rowdies, Jacksonville Armada, Austin*, New Orleans*, Greenville*, Birmingham*, Fort Worth*, Virginia Beach*, Atlanta United II, Orlando City II, FC Dallas II, Houston Dynamo II
    *bottom 2 relegated to D2.

    D2: Miami* II, San Antonio* II, Charlotte* II, Nashville* II, Greensboro*, Wilmington*, Columbia*, Chattanooga*, Memphis*, Jackson*, Little Rock*, Waco*, Corpus Christi*, Asheville*
    *top 2 promoted to D1.

    U23: Clemson (Clemson), Durham (Duke), Winston-Salem (Wake Forest), Chapel Hill (UNC), Charlottesville (UV), Tampa Bay (USF), Dallas (SMU), Columbia (USC), Atlanta United u21, Orlando City u21, FC Dallas u21, Houston Dynamo u21, Miami u21, San Antonio u21, Nashville u21, Charlotte u21

    ...expansion candidates: Austin (UT), Knoxville (UT), Gainesville (UF), Athens (UGA), Tuscaloosa (Alabama), Tallahassee (FSU), Auburn (Auburn), Baton Rouge (LSU), etc
     
    JackBlack21, superdave, 2in10 and 2 others repped this.
  3. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    I do not like the fact that we may never have pro/rel

    That being said...

    I need to do a big research on usl
     
  4. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    Some people and some mods are jumping to conclusions too fast.

    I’m trying to help no to destroy.

    The reality is, I don’t have all the answers, this is why I come to this board, so I can read all the ideas and come up with something better.

    All I do is to shares my experiences, and share my ideas of what I think can work.

    I think we need to structure a well pyramid that ends up with MLS.

    Right now USL is the second division, do we have an official third division? Fourth division?

    I think once we know for sure about the top 4 division, this is when we know for sure we are on the right track.

    Right now, nobody knows who’s is who.

    For example, there are many leagues below usl, do they have official websites? Official rosters? Statistics?

    We need to define our official 4 top divisions, national divisions, recognized by the national soccer federation.
     
  5. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I think that your emphasis on improving the lower divisions is one of the better if not best ideas you have put forth on BS. The fact that so many players have difficulty making the jump from U-level youth competition to MLS is a direct result of our weakness in the lower divisipons.

    I feel however that fixing it will be a bit more difficult than just mandating or throwing money at it. We need a large number of teams spread across an extremely wide area and that is just one hurdle.

    I also think that pro/rel is 100% unrelated to development. What they have in Europe that we don't have here is a well developed set of lower divisions. It is also interesting to note that Germany (one of the models often held up as one we should follow) does not have pro/rel for their development. What I mean by that is the reserve teams of Bayern, Dortmund etc are B4 and cannot advance. They are stuck in B4. It would be interesting to me to hear the rationale behind that. Are they doing it for development reasons or competitive reasons or something else?

    The way Germany's system is now would be like MLB having a system of youth development and then at some point the players would play at the A level in their farm system. If not ready for the jump to the majors, they could be loaned out to a separate team in AA or AAA where they would hope the team would develop the player further or buy them outright.
     
  6. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    Thank you, you are on the right track, one of the best posts I have seen on this board.

    I’m thinking we have to steal the college football structure or the NCAA structure.

    The SEC and the PAC 10... lower divisions will have to be decided into regions and truly battle for a real national championship.
     
  7. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    We need to look into Brazil too, a big country like we are, very successful country when it comes to soccer.
     
  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. Maybe one plank for the next USSF president is to work out a deal with college soccer so that they play year round. Now they typically play twice a week which means little practice time when players are fresh. In addition, there should be an effort to create a higher division for the good college programs. I don't know if it's possible with all the conference network crap, but it would be good if Maryland could play Virginia and UNC and Duke and so on, rather than Ohio State and Iowa and Minnesota. Finally, the Fed should work out a deal with colleges like you suggest, a better, more coherent PDL.

    Better development at that age would help the US significantly...sure, a few of those players will become Nats and be better players by means of a better college experience. But potential impact national teamers aren't going to spend 4 years playing college soccer in the future. I doubt any play 3.

    But most Nats will spend all or some of their career in MLS, and the caliber of their opponents should be better.

    Am I making sense? I'm saying that making college years better as a soccer incubator isn't so much to make Jordan Morris better, because he's a marginal Nat. It's about making the midfielders that Tyler Adams is battling better, giving him a better chance at developing into a player who can be a match winner for the Nats.
     
  9. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I agree that we need to consider all of the successful countries. I only mentioned Germany because I am aware of how their pro/rel is not applied to reserve teams. I have no idea how other countries do it.

    Due to many factors, it may be impossible to apply some of the practices of other countries but there will definitely be many areas which we can apply.
     
  10. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Yes, it makes perfect sense. increase the level of the milk and the level of the cream will be higher......
     
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  11. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Definitely. The idea is to raise the whole bar to a higher level. Whereas, I’d argue that hopefully what we see is Jordan Morris becomes the average level, and even those top notch players who spend only 1-2 years are more prepared for MLS than had they relied solely on college soccer.

    And, that’s my problem with the PDL... it should serve this function, instead of lamenting away in desolate places like Greenwood, South Carolina over one of the best college towns in the country in Clemson, South Carolina - which is a very attractive market for 18-23 year olds. Those kids who are in the top college programs needs to be playing top level ball year round, and they need to be doing it where the hotspots are (Clemson) and not necessarily in places that belong in deliverance (Greenwood).

    The best parallel I can think of is it’s like having to rely on high school soccer to be the only way to develop 14-18 year old talent, but there might be some random club teams in a retirement community.
     
    Mahtzo1 repped this.
  12. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To a degree, yes.

    That said, we can keep it simpler still and keep with the 4 conferences, North, South, East, and West. This way, MLS, lower leagues, and the u23 all fit in the same conference territories.

    Ultimately, we may either just create promotion/relegation in the lower leagues and the u23, separated. In other words, there’s three tiers: #1 MLS, the major leagues. No promotion/relegation. #2 Lower leagues, minor and reserve leagues. Promotion/relegation may be an option between lower league teams. #3 u23 leagues, where promotion/relegation may be an option again among the u23 class.

    So, for the u23’s in the Southern Conference, pie in the sky model:

    The first division: Clemson Tigers FC, Durham Blue Devils, Winston-Salem Demon Deacons, Chapel Hill Tar Heels, Charlottesville Cavaliers, Tampa Bulls, Dallas Mustangs, Columbia Gamecocks, Atl Utd u21, FC Dallas u21, Houston Dynamo u21, Orlando City u21
    *Start: 2020?

    The second division: Charleston Cougars, Greensboro Tar Heels, Atlanta Panthers, Waco Bears, Statesboro Eagles, Greenville Paladins, Birmingham Blazers, Raleigh Wolfpack, Conway Chanticleers, Norfolk Monarchs, Boone Mountaineers, Kennesaw Owls
    Start: 2022?

    The third division: Atlanta Yellow Jackets, Austin Longhorns, Athens Bulldogs, Knoxville, Tampa, Baton Rouge Tigers, Collegestation Aggies, Gainesville Gators, Miami Hurricanes FC, Auburn Tigers United, Tallahassee Seminoles, Nashville Commodores, Blacksburg Hokies, San Marcos Bobcats, Lubbock Red Raiders, Dallas Longhorns, Tuscaloosa Tide, Fayetteville Razorbacks, Oxford Rebels, Starkville Bulldogs
    Start: 2025?

    Understandably, it may take some time to take off, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near what it takes MLS and maybe so, wouldn’t even take this long. But ideally, we would see this version or something similar in the Southern Conference; and then we’d see something like it in the North, West, and East. More so, the third division is all the big schools without teams... they may start out at the bottom but with time should be contenders to make it all the way to even the first division. Ultimately, hopefully, within 10 years, we would have circumvented the NCAA problem.
     
  13. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    If both college and high school were year round with teams playing in the weekends, I can see it to be a good option but I don’t see it happening, just like Pro/rel, is just a dream for some of us.
     
  14. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    Should be 4 divisions, the USL have to be the new NCAA and structure the soccer pyramid.
     
  15. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    We need to make a proper second division indeed, but we need to definitely improve MLS. The whole damn system needs to be changed.
     
  16. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    #16 Kombucha, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    You could argue this exists already and is called the ACC.

    Soccer Coaches Poll

    2. Wake Forest
    4. UNC
    5. Lousiville
    7. Clemson
    10. UVA
    12. Notre Dame
    15. Duke

    7 out of 12 teams are ranked.

    Pitt is also ranked in other polls.

    Lots of strong competition between teams, but also strong competition in practice to get on the field. Lots of former USYNT players who can't beat out other players especially at schools like Wake/UNC that have lots of former USYNT players on their roster.

    At the end of the day though College Soccer is never going to be the answer to any of US Soccer questions. Sure it can be improved by lengthening the season and allowing more rest and practice between games, but even if the format is improved greatly it will never be a key factor in development.

    Some might disagree, but there are probably less than 20 players in all of college soccer that will play more than 2 years in college and start more than 30 games in MLS and that number is trending down.
     

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