Loco, no saves nade de mi. I told you already, and been telling you, I know lief in Argentina the past 15 years. No save nada........... I've gone as far as politely I can go with you. If you can be civil or just talk about this in PM, and just keep throwing these kind of comments out . There's no point in talking.
Oh I see you lived there the past 15 years but go there often, yeah I think it best you stay away from me.
No, you need to go back read the entire conversation. How post 15 was written, to how a proper conversation at post 18 is, then your follow up with post 19, made leeway to post 21 and then how you posted in 23. I may have started with an unpopular post with you, but since then, you've been carrying an aggressive conversation.
Go ******** yourself ********. The only shit you have done in this conversation is shout like a ********ing bitch. ******** I put up with your flaim baiting bullshit. Oh... you have experience!!!!! You're the man now dawg!!! You're better than all those argentines out there!
Ah I knew your true colors were going to come out sooner than later, Im sure you convinced many on here, well done.
Aerez why dont you take a deep breath and come back when you can reply w/o having to resort to insults.
No, you took it out of context. It was suppose to be and pertaining to modern approach to Argentina in the last 15 years. My experience in that time frame. I'm not sure what you extrapolate out of that. Also, I have many friends and talk to many people in Argentina who are citizens and contribute everyday to that country, so YES, I know what is going on in Argentina. I close the conversation here. I think you needed these corrections from my point of view. It's unfair that this is what's implied, when it's not true. So mods don't delete this post. I had time to think where everything went wrong. With this quote, the conversation would have gone entirely a different direction. I was talking about something deeper and more involved than the Malvina's. If you told me this without trolling me in the beginning, we could have spoken this point from the beginning, but because you never made this point clear, we both talked about entirely different things. I knew from the beginning this conversation was going to escalate to this if I wasn't careful, I tried really hard to prioritize what I said and take into account your background. I don't have anything to apologize for since I tried my best at the beginning to convey slowly and diligently my message to you. You did the exact opposite. I went over every sentence and paragraph. You never mentioned this at all initially. This would have prevented the entire headache. However, you can't speak to your reasonably. You were never reasonable your first 2 posts on the onset. After I posted you began with this Post 15 , I posted this and you replied like this Post 19 . Then you followed up with this (which I missed as I responded) to post 19 thereafter with this post 21. Post 21, had your answer, which I could have replied properly. Eventually you replied with post 23 , and from there we never saw eye to eye. I kept asking you to relinquish your flaim baiting, you kept thinking I wasn't knowing what you were talking about, when I was from the onset trying to hear you out. Then you started from there trolling every response, and eventually I had it with you, and then I insulted you. Then to add on top of that, you kept adding insult to injury, as it seemed you finally got me to concede infuriatingly. The point is you should have taken the time to listen, and wait. I analyzed the entire conversation, whilst I was improper at the end, you were not entirely arguing properly from the beginning and it started with your flaimbates from the beginning of the conversation which I completely ignored at the beginning.
Aerez in your analyzing did you ever see me bringing up the dirty war, the politics, right or wrong? NO YOU TOOK THE CONVERSATION THERE, NOT ME. My reply to you stands and yes I got angry because no your original post was not one of calmness or one of intelligent two way conversation, but one of condescending tone and full off ill founded implications and heresay and putting words in ones mouth where there was none, in fact I am sure I made that clear. As Racing Girl said BASTA < FINITO .
And we are still waiting for his intelligent response are we not? Call it trolling, baiting or flaming I don't care fact is you were insulting from the start and got vey bad to the end, if i could I would have you removed from this site, but alas this is not my wish really, nor my way of doing this, but to publicly show people exactly what ilk you are cut from is, so swallow the very own mess you got yourself into.
To be fair Matias, the whole world is going through a deterioration...more petty crime, delapidaton of property, political corruption, diminished philantropy, etc. Here in NYC (until recently the so-called center of the world) what you see these days in people's faces and hear in their tone is fear. I don't think the situation may be unique to Argentina...everyone's hurting.
Viejo I got nothing to do with the argument except for wanting to know what made aerez so upset and to know his point of view, "I think you have a more valid point" . that being said , I will assume you quoting me and the following response as directed toward him and not me .. I was fortunate not to live through any of this since I was born and raised in CA. So i want to know about both sides.. I do believe aerez could've handled the discussion better as he did have a condescending tone ,, but i think that is due to the fact he is trying too hard to sound intelligent.. It's ok.. I'm not an intelligent man myself,, i'll be the first to say it , i have no formal education.. but thats ok i can match wits w/ most anyone.. Aerez im still waiting to hear your point of view , lets not argue for arguments sake ... but rather express our point of view w/ out belittling or being too condescending towards others... So i like to see more than one side to a story ,,,,, but the obvious conclusion is that the Military Junta / dictatorship/ government of the time was awful . We all agree on this.. As the Malvinas go I beleive they are rightfully Argentinas , whether or not anyone else(country) supports this claim is of no cosequence as long as Britain has their dirty hands on it..
devilman I see I can speak to you intellectually with you. I came into this discussion into the latter pages, so I didn't notice to read the first post. It did stray from it's original intent though since I've been lurking around it, so these claims about the Original Poster, saying I came in with a condescending tone, are outrageous. If you review my second post, there is absolutely no condescending tone; yet, the Original Poster decided to be condescending the entire time, eventually I had no choice but to be irritated. Of course, the original poster will take absolutely no fault in for his actions. My opinions on the Malvina's is that, even though I feel territorially they belong to Argentina, I feel through all the suffering Argentinians have been through past, present and now current. The Malvina's really shouldn't be a priority with the people. I feel if we were to get into another conflict with all the problems that are ripe already with the country. Argentina needs to find itself politically, environmentally and economically. It's on it's path slowly to fixing itself, I trust the new elected politicians, at the same time I don't fool myself into thinking that we can adjust things so easily. However, I have my faith in Argentina's core, their strength and their will to struggle. I know the current situation with many family, friends and people I know who live in Argentina running a business, living a daily life or getting a job are priorities. It's difficult, but as outsiders have to support them mentally and politically if we can. Anyway, back to the Malvinas, while England have territorial claim at the moment, it's not in the interest of Argentina to bother with the island. If you go to Argentina there is always that bravado talk of "los malvina's es nostro's" I find that political mentality similar to the bravado of believing in Che is a revolutionary and how Argentine's feel Chile went against them w/ the Falklan decision. These are things in the past, these are things to make the people strong. If anything, the positive from the Malvina's is that it weakened and ostrazieded a brutal dictaroship. All the experiences that familys, the men, women and children all happened for the greater good, which has been going on before the Malvina's war. What El Viejo mentions how his family suffered and went through. Everyone has a story to tell like this, or a family branch that tail gates them. His are just that, history, opening up sore wombs doesn't do anyone's opinion justice. I'm someone who likes to look on the bright side and use past failures as measure to succeed. It's proved me well in life, as has the formula with nations and individuals. Perhaps, in a time when Argentina can lift itself from it's ashes. Then we can bring the Malvina's back to the table if it's such a serious agenda to the country. Perhaps, then, Argentina can politically come to a viable solution to getting the Malvina's back. Being aggressive to the UK, a Nato ally in this day and age and putting your stamp on a rock, because "we" say so is absurd. To me though, it's just that, a bloody island. Nothing more. Patriotic nationality is nothing but a concept. You get no truths to worshipping a peace of land or marking your territory, because that just brings strife. The Malvina's issue has to be brought forward to the UN, the UK at a time when Argentina has healed from it's wounds, and my friend, those wounds are deep. When I went to Argentina I went to go see a sick Uncle who is far gone, an he was strong many moons ago. He told me, inadvertantly, "Esto vas asere algo bueno." I thought he was talking shit, but when you think about it, he was right, even for being 'gone'. It's not the generation who's experienced the hatred, but the generation that experiences the misery from the hatred that will change the country. -------------- And as far as El viejo Matias throwing these fits and quadruple posting to make a point. If he wants to throw out our online friendship over this feud we had (The only one he ever had), and keep telling me "I learned my lesson", "I should stay away", well I find it odd because he seemed to agree with me for the most part for 3 years. That said, I don't think I'm the one over-reacting.
If you guys want to discuss history in a rational manner, let me make a point, because I was there and I saw what happened, and I don't agree with that statement at all. By 1982 the Junta was already on its way out, before the invasion of the Malvinas even happened. The 'dirty war' was long over, there was no leftist resistance left, so there was no reason (or I should say excuse) left for the hard liners in power to continue taking away people's freedoms and violating the constitution. Let me take you back to 1976, when the military usurped power and began curtailing our freedoms. At the time, most of the influential people with power within the country (ie leadership within the Armed forces, the political community, the business community, the church), originally supported the military hardliners. And so did many of the regular folk. The reason for this was that people were spooked by the chaos and anarchy of the last days of the Peronists, with the out of control war between Lopez Rega's right wing hardline death squads and the leftist Marxist guerrillas, which was spilling into the streets, with bombings, kidnappings and murders being commonplace, not to mention the economic chaos created by the poor policies and corruption that was rampant during Isabel Peron's term. So, at first those with power, (as well as most of the regular people) were willing to accept the temporary taking away of their freedoms, and the strong tactics against the leftist insurgents in exchange for regaining some stability and order. They were willing to pay a price in order to allow the military leaders to 'clean up the mess'. But by 1982 there was widespread disenchantment, and even those who had been the strongest allies and supporters of the Junta hard liners had reached the conclusion that things had been taken too far. The people were fed up with the lack of freedoms, and the truth about the full extent of the murders, tortures and disappearances was starting to come out. In addition, the economy was in shambles. All this was leading to the hardliners in power losing the support of their allies within the community who had helped them stay in power, including elements within the business community, the leadership of the Catholic church, and even support within the armed forces, where they were being challenged from within by more moderate elements. In addition the people were protesting every day at the Plaza and everywhere and the Junta didn't have the power and support anymore to continue their strong suppression tactics that they had used previously. Their days were definitely numbered. In fact, the invasion of the Malvinas by the Junta was a poorly planned last ditch effort to try to stay in power. They figured that by taking the Malvinas they would gain some popularity that would buy them some time to try to fix the economy and remain in power. The Junta thought that the invasion would go without a hitch. Remember that at the time they still had the diplomatic support of the US and Britain, (led by Reagan and Thatcher), due to their anti-communist policies. So, they strongly miscalculated Britain's reaction. They thought Thatcher would not fight Argentina, expecting that Britain would care more about The Junta's support for their side in the cold war than for the Malvinas. A huge miscalculation that led to disaster. But trust me, this idea that the Malvinas debacle was the catalyst for getting rid of the Junta is revisionist history. The Junta did lose its power right after the war was lost, but in fact it was already on its way out, and would most likely have been removed within a short time, even if the invasion of the Malvinas had never happened.
Gracias por Dios, finally someone here with sense and smarts, gracias chamigo. Like I said before my original intent was not to discus the incredibly complicated situation in Argentina now or its history, I thought that was obvious. Also once again I will avoid touching Aerez`s latest contribution because I do not agree with a lot of it and because I suspect my opinions would not be popular with a lot of the "new" "argentines". I quickly alluded to how the Montenero's are now running the country, maybe that is what upset him? I don't know, but trust me the last thing I wanted to do was be condescending as i think most here would say I have alays posted with good tone and been fair in my arguments. Enough of this however, I can apologise Aerez and forgive, but alas I do not forget and hence it is best we just leave each other alone.
Have you noticed I've avoided discussing history the entire time. If I wanted to get into a historical factual argument I would have. Thanks though Soccer Fan for your input, I did read it. No, the Montenero's didn't offend me. I told you what offend me is that you don't want to listen to opposite views of what you think. The fact that you avoid my latest contribution proves this, you can't stand contrary views. This is fine, you can disagree to that, but don't assume I don't know what's going on in modern day Argentina. If you are going to avoid me on the forums, because of this argument. I've had more intense debates with other logical people and we never saw eye to eye. In the end we still were comrades even if we did insult each other. Friends of any type look above names. If you are this sensitive that I offended you, then I will just put you on ignore, so I will avoid all your comments all together. You suggest I'm condescending and I"m insulted. I think that you are too sensitive.
Thanks for the info, asf! I figured the war was a last ditch effort by the junta Sorry if I opened Pandora's box by reviving this thread. I knew the junta thought the US government would help them in the war. Obviously, they were wrong (as they were about a lot of things). (I have an interest in Argentine history and would really like to visit someday.)