List of USMNT-prospects we've pushed to cap-tie but ultimately flamed out?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by scootsy, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    The #1 reason is that people always inflate and hype the player so that their 95th projectile projection seems like a 50/50 projection.

    I don’t mean the hype gets to their heads. I mean that the player was never that good to begin with or had much more to improve on, or that the improvement of something significant was assumed.

    Hot streaks are assumed always to be a new standard of play. Playing time granted because others were hurt was earned. Routine plays become great. Mistakes are forgiven.

    It’s a competitive labor market. Most players don’t pan out to the level we expect.
     
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  2. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    My favorite example of this is actually someone few people would consider a flop and who has actually performed decently for the USMNT: Bobby Wood.

    In club play, across all levels, he's scored 59 goals in 17,700 minutes. That's once every 300 minutes. Including youth levels. That's (at best) who Bobby Wood is.

    But from mid-Dec '15 through mid-Apr '16 (so, three months of play once you account for the winter break), he had 12 goals in 10 matches in 2. Bundesliga.

    He's never had a run like that before or since. But until very recently, people still acted like Wood was a big scorer. He's never really been that at all. He only has two years where he had more 10 ten goals period, and that includes a year where 8 of them came in the Regionalia.

    It's just very possible -- even likely -- that's he's not a Bundesliga level forward and we all -- including some club teams -- overestimated his impact.

    The irony here is that he's done better in a US shirt, an has scored a couple of times against Mexico, Costa Rica and in WCQ in general.

    But it was always more likely that 10 match run was a hot streak and not a new level of performance.
     
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  3. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Controversial yet true.
     
  4. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously they tried with Rossi but he just wasn't having it.

    Fell asleep at the wheel for a minute w/ JoGo and it cost us. I'll maintain he would have helped us because his pressure/work-rate fit our style better.

    That's really a rarity when it came to not trying hard enough to secure services and it probably costing us later. Even a case like Subotic, where there were some mistakes made, he didn't end up doing much for his home country so what would he have done for us?

    A rare example where we may have benefited from getting in there early w/ Brooks. Would he have been called up by Germany eventually. It's possible. And he's went on to be an asset to the program, even though there have been many bumps in the road.

    It would help to have a quantitative study, but the qualitative samples still paint a clear picture (imo) that the desire to cap-tie just in case is a bad strategy that costs you in the long run. That's a lot of caps which could have been used to integrate more productive players at the time. Just employ as meritorious of a system as you can, keep communication w/ dual nationals especially, and pounce when the evidence is sufficient they'll probably help us.

    If they want to get extra special treatment just say sionara and take the occasional lump which will be more than offset by making more reliable use out of those caps. Doesn't say much about how motivated of player you'll usually get if they want to get call-ups from very little or they'll walk to their preferred destination.
     
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  5. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just don’t know how you can say he’s never get a meaningful game for the Dutch. He’s starting at age 18 for Ajax. How many players can say they started for a storied club like that at age 18? Maybe he never gets a cap for the Dutch because he may end up being ours. But his talent level is high enough at age 18 that he starts for Ajax which to me means there is at a minimum a reasonable possibility he could be good enough to start a meaningful game for the Dutch.
     
  6. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's not what the vast majority of people think has happened as a result of recruiting dual-nationals, hence the continued, perhaps even increasing, fervor to cap-tie them.

    There's a small list of capped American dual-nationals that were given a spot largely because of their nationality, and even fewer who played multiple ineffective caps.

    And while you harp on Julian Green, an aggressively-recruited 2010 Jermaine Jones could've led us to our best finish in the World Cup, considering his superiority to Clark and subsequent production after that cycle.

    Most of the time, we throw YNT caps at players, and so when a guy like Maki Tall flames out, nobody cares. And when someone like Mario Rodriguez is called in, it's not because he's a dual nat, but because our YNTs often had (past tense, because we've finally got enough depth that we're not starting non-pros at the U23 level, despite injuries or scheduling conflicts) huge weak spots.

    I think a quantitative study would almost certainly reveal that the opportunity cost for kicking the tires on a dual national is extremely low. It's simply that media focus is drawn towards those prospects moreso than others. Gideon Zelalem, for example, has been talked about extensively for years, and played not at all.

    Besides, if you want to get technical about "dual national", you'd have to include DeAndre Yedlin, Christian Pulisic, Tim Howard, Wil Trapp, Emerson Hyndman, and dozens of other US players with foreign passports and accompanying FIFA eligibility that theoretically could've been poached the other way.

    Meaning that, most of the time, we're calling up dual nationals that could play for other countries, whether it's Julian Green, Sergino Dest, Jozy Altidore, or Kellyn Acosta.

    Very rarely are we running into Subotic/Gonzalez situations, and even rarer are guys like Rossi who were never in our setup.


    Also rare is an American playing somewhere else. Nobody lost any sleep when AJ Delagarza went to Guam. We didn't give Bunbury 50 caps to keep him from Canada.
     
    NietzscheIsDead repped this.
  7. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Jones switched in 2009.
     
    Marko72 repped this.
  8. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, injury kept him out, I thought he just hadn't switched yet, my bad.
     
  9. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Jul 8, 2017
    On that note reports today that Wan Kuzain is about to switch to Malaysia. Probably not a huge loss
     
  10. EXALIFTIN

    EXALIFTIN Member+

    Nov 23, 2010
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Omar Salgado is another one that comes to mind
     
  11. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
  12. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He'd have a North American teammate on the Malaysian NT, La'Vere Corbin-Ong from Canada. Malaysia has been very actively recruiting foreign pros with Malaysian ancestry in recent years.
     

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