Lionel Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo; better UEFA Champions league career?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sexy Beast, Jul 31, 2018.

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  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #326 carlito86, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    LMFAO

    Im just waiting for leadleaders 10,000 word dissertation on why 5th place manchester united is a very underrated side
     
  2. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    They could have still hurt Barca in both games. Had 2 clear chances today from the start. But that says more about Barca's deficiencies than ManU's quality. Barca have big weakness in transition defense, lack of physicality and over dependency on Messi.
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #328 carlito86, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    I agree but would you concur barcelona without messi had enough quality to beat manchester united?

    the tie was a dead rubber after luke shaws own goal in the first leg
    The de gea blunder today
    A goal is a goal vs any opponent but im just saying be prepared for posts laced with double standards

    I have nothing to say really about the ronaldo/juve situation
    Juventus were throughly outplayed over 2 legs
    My dad tells me apparently this is a even better side than 1995
    Maybe they are or maybe he and others are just caught in the moment

    There arent many "tests" left
    Manchester citys CL pedigree is still unproven
    Tottenham are perennial chokers on the big stage
    Barcelona with defensive frailities
    Liverpool maybe but klopp has a bad record in finals

    Ronaldos chance to equal gentos record has passed IMO
    35 years old is too old to be that level of a difference maker
    We will see if juve bolster their midfield but by then it could be too
    Late

    Real madrid will go on a spending spree with rumors zidane has a blank check
    Barcelona will strengthen
    The CL was open for the taking this year juventus missed their chance and that is life
     
  4. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Depends. Who's Messi replaced with ? With Dembele not featuring I think the chances would diminish quite a bit. Unless Coutinho stepped up which looks like a very questionable scenario.

    Tie was still up for grabs up until the first goal today. The 2nd one sealed it. Big blunder from De Gea ... where have we seen that before ? :whistling:

    They are playing really good. If their finishing was better, they would have slaughtered Madrid even more and slaughtered Juve today. All Juve had vs Atletico and even Ajax was crosses. I don't think Juve are better this season with Ronaldo than last couple of years. They had a capable striker in Higuain who had to leave and also displaced Dybala who doesn't seem to play well with Ronaldo. They were never all that, but they became more single dimensional IMO.

    Wouldn't be surprised with a Liverpool x Ajax final.

    Ronaldo didn't put himself in a good situation that's for sure. Juve need to make big changes.
     
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  5. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Wow, for some reason I thought Ajax would be playing Liverpool in the next round.

    They're playing Man City or Tottenham? Neither of those two will take Ajax down. Almost guaranteed. Historic clubs have a very clear advantage that shines through players' mentality. That 'know how' is extremely difficult to pick up, and has a large, tangible impact, no matter how much oil the sheikhs extract.

    No way Ajax dominates Juve and Real Madrid and gets beaten by Man City or Tottenham.
     
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  6. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    This Juve team was worse, significantly so, relative to prior years. Last year they beat Real Madrid 3-1 at the Bernabeu. I agree with them being more single-dimensional and I actually believe it was a double edged sword for them to have Ronaldo. I think they started looking at him as "the solution" and not as a piece of an overall puzzle. Their players seem to almost have lost confidence in themselves and expected Ronaldo to just ultimately solve things. Really poor management from Allegri.
     
    leadleader repped this.
  7. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I feel like the story of this guy's career can be summed up as him "not playing well with such and such player". Real enigma.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  8. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Only time will tell, I feel City have the exact tools take Ajax apart though. Spurs on the other hand, will be there for the taking.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  9. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I dunno, Ajax has been the better team against Bayern, Real and Juventus this CL campaign. That's pretty serious. Like, clearly better. Only reason I think they didn't qualify ahead of Bayern was because they were too surprised themselves early in the season as to how good they actually were.

    Manchester City just can't hack it in this competition, nevermind reach the level of those three teams. If last week's game against Tottenham had all the same factors, but you tell the players they were playing an EPL instead of a CL game, I'd bet money Manchester City come away with a more positive result. Pep seems to have developed some type of mental complex in the CL after leaving Barcelona as well. Guy's away form in this competition is beyond abysmal.

    Also, City's fanbase openly have animosity to the competition.

    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nchester-city-fans-champions-league-tottenham

    "With the manager (Guardiola) “very curious” about how much their supporters care about reaching the last four of the tournament after it emerged that tickets were still on sale on Tuesday."

    https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/exp...e-champions-league/19h32ar87gv411qfndpxuzir3w

    As the link immediately above explains, the animosity seems to stem from UEFA's FFP punishments to Man City dating back to 2014. In reality, they have animosity cause their team sucks in the competition and has absolutely no historical European pedigree whatsoever.

    Fans of historic teams like Ajax, Real Madrid, Juve, Benfica, Liverpool, Barcelona etc. have an extra-level of excitement when the Champions League comes around, because many of them were around for the competition when it was still the European Cup. Teams like those made this competition what it is. And they certainly didn't buy themselves into it. This, to me, is a definitive reason as to why Liverpool absolutely smashed Manchester City in last year's quarter finals, in a season Man City ran away with the EPL.

    Seems like a minor, almost unimportant note, but if your fanbase has a public expression of animosity towards a competition, coupled with a lack of history in said competition... those dynamics combine and express themselves accordingly on the field. In this case, Manchester City doing jack shit in the Champions Leauge.
     
  10. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    When in doubt, just defer to whatever team Messi or CR7 is on.

    Liverpool would be my pick if it wasn't for their spotty group stage performance and also Klopp sucking wind in finals/when it matters (like giving up that significant lead in this season's EPL).

    If not those two, then Ajax, which is an insane thing to type out. I mean, the fact that the final will have either Man City, Tottenham or Ajax is incredible. First time finalist or a team outside the Top 5 leagues, either scenario is exciting and unexpected in some fashion.
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid



    Like to see these "uncomfortable"questions asked by sports journalists
    Credit to him for being honest about
    It too
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #337 carlito86, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    Is luis figo an all time great
    How do you differentiate between a all time great and a generational great?

    Why is it required that neymar has what you call at least 2 godly champions league campaigns when figo did not have arguably even 1

    I notice with neymar as i noticed with CR many years ago that fans like to place several obstacles in their path to greatness
    They have to do 101 things before they qualify as greats while figo,nedved,totti,rivaldo at club level etc did hardly or non of those

    When you say neymar had a couple of merely good seasons there is no mention of the fact that he finished 3rd place in a year messi won the ballon dor

    2015 messi was most likely better than maradona ever was(at club level)
    Who is prime ronaldinho in 2015
    Who is figo

    Why is neymar 15/16 with around 60 goal involvements(not including pre assists and only 4 penalties)objectively worse than prime henry and figo
    Could these players sharing the limelight with messi and suarez produce the same
    Maybe they could
    Could they produce substantially more
    I dont think so

    Neymar 15/16 completely outstrips salah 17/18
    In goal involvements(goals+assists)
    Dribbles
    Key passes(and playmaking in general)
    Trophies
    And he wasnt the focal point of this team(arguably 3rd in line actually)
    Salah is like a prime david villa(valencia)
    Or a RVN 01-03 (who was much slower but technically better particularly in trapping the ball)
    Salahs pace gives him the illusion of being more of a threat then he actually is



    You could say technically compared to PL players he was at the same level as gareth bale,david beckham,prime torres,rooney etc

    Nowhere near the same technical level as kanchelskis,cantona (or recently hazard)

    Bergkamp and CR were unfortunately completely out of his reach
     
  13. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    Chelsea 2018 was a difficult side that was defensively compact, but yes, Manchester United 2019 is not a difficult side. I actually alluded to that a couple of days ago.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-games-of-the-best-players.2071047/page-20#post-37693174

    I suspect Pique's performance was underrated or discredited largely on the basis of Manchester United not being perceived as a legitimately difficult team, but put that same Pique performance against a higher profile side, in a higher profile stage of the champions league, and it suddenly becomes a classic. (Of course, Pique's big flaw for the better part of his career has been his on-and-off form.)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    As demonstrated by the above quote, I clearly alluded to the fact that I do not consider Manchester United 2019 a difficult side. I very much anticipated that Manchester United was simply inferior, you know, the same way that Juventus 2018 was inferior to Real Madrid, or better yet, the same way that Juventus 2019 was inferior to Ajax... As it turns out, replacing the production of both Dybala and Higuain, with Cristiano Ronaldo as supreme ruler of his peasant working-class, is nowhere near as practical - in a TEAM sport - as Ronaldo's statistics imply it is on paper, is it??

    Honestly, Juventus 2018 was probably better than Juventus 2019... I mean, Juventus 2018 at least managed to have a balanced - "any team can win it" - two legged affair versus a proven Real Madrid side (Real Madrid only ever looked superior after Dybala's red card, but not before said red card, and not in the second leg either), on the other hand, Juventus 2019 was thoroughly outclassed over two legs by a young Ajax side that was actually not as unforgiving as they could've been; I mean, Ajax could have easily won by a 5-2 difference had their finishing been slightly better.

    Oh and, of course, Juventus 2018/19 have scored 2.07 goals per game on average in Serie A; when Juventus 2017/18 had scored 2.26 goals per game the previous season. So basically, not only is Juventus arguably playing worse football with Ronaldo, but Juventus is factually also scoring less goals with Ronaldo... Agnelli must be thinking - "worth it" - to have reduced Dybala to a bench role, to have kicked Higuain out, and to have spent over 100 euros on a 34 year old version of Cristiano Ronaldo.

    And by the way, you really must have a rather short memory to not realize how - with all due respect - utterly clueless you sound most of the time, especially in hindsight...


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ne...-lm10-and-when.2015852/page-206#post-36908252

    Furthermore, I think that Ronaldo's bicycle kick against an injured and overrated Juventus side, cannot compete against Mbappe having one of the best world cup campaigns (relative to his role) of all time. If the absurdity of the Ballon d'Or is at least consistent, then Mbappe should (irrationally) be the top contender for the award, definitely and unequivocally in front of Ronaldo who only has two stand out performances against overrated teams.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ne...-lm10-and-when.2015852/page-206#post-36908538

    Gigi Buffon after cristiano ronaldo's overrated performance vs juventus

    "Once again today, we've all seen what he is and what he always has been -- an incredible footballer who, together with [Lionel] Messi, is somebody inspiring his own side to the greatest successes, and this means that his value has to be compared with the likes of Maradona and Pele," Buffon told Mediaset. "He's one of those players who can have such a huge influence over the number of games and titles their sides win.

    This is the same overrated juventus side that had won a 7th consecutive league title
    Boast the best defensive record in Europe(FACT).


    Cristiano ronaldos performance vs juventus was one of the greatest individual performances in champions league history let alone of 2018.the fact that you are attempting to compare a whole competition worth of games by mbappe to a single performance by cristiano shows how desperate and far reaching you are
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ne...-lm10-and-when.2015852/page-207#post-36912226

    I never said that Ronaldo's performance is overrated, I said that Juventus was overrated, and Juventus was in fact overrated. Most of the reputable sources already considered that Juventus had gotten lucky against Tottenham, so Juventus missing 2 or 3 starters against Real Madrid, was seen as a weak quarter finalist i.e. an overrated team. Of course you are such a pathological liar that literally your very first statement is saying that I think that Ronaldo's performance is overrated, when you know very well that I have never stated such a thing, in fact, at the time I rated it as an iconic performance against an overrated Juve.

    And of course, the greatest irony is that when CR7 fails miserably at the Champions League in the years to come, it will be you @carlito86 who will talk about how overrated Juve is and how Ronaldo cannot possibly win the Champions League with such an overrated club... I will remind you of this when the time comes, and you will look as dishonest as you always look in any discussion. Pathological liar.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I think I was largely correct with the above predictions, which by the way, was not difficult to predict as far predictions go, because Juventus was OVERRATED in 2018, and Ronaldo is not good enough to make an OVERRATED club a real contender. It might be a bitter pill to swallow for you, but it is what it is; Ronaldo was at his clinical best at the right time of the year - this is the same exact Ronaldo of 2017 - and Juve is arguably playing worse football in the Champions League and scoring less goals in the league. Statistics go round and round.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #339 carlito86, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    OMFG
    Why do you do this to yourself

    You went through all that trouble(how many hours of searching)
    To quote me on a fact that i will not backtrack on

    Ronaldo put on against juventus 17/18 one of the greatest performances of all time
    A team that had the best defensive record in europe


    Did juventus 18/19 have the best defensive record in europe?
    Where is the contradiction?

    Is it unprecedented that a team can go from being a defensive juggernaut to a shambles in the space of one season

    "Park the bus"chelsea went from winning the champions to getting destroyed by the foot of radamel falcao in the uefa super cup in the space of months

    according to your own BS theories atletico madrid went from the best defensive side in europe to completely overrated in 1 season
    2015/16 vs 2016/17

    I repeat
    Where is the contradiction?

    When did he "miserably fail"
    I just watched a 34 year old score 5 goals in the champions league KO stage

    How many CL KO stage goals did francesco totti score in his entire career
    How many did zlatan ibrahimovic
    How many did higuain
    Genuinely?
     
  15. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Similarly, I feel like the story of Cristiano Ronaldo's career can be summed up as him "not having Benzema in Portugal nor in Juventus." Real enigma this Ronaldo character who simply cannot share the spotlight and has to systematically reduce the forwards - the forwards not necessarily the midfielders - around him so that they can only play the secondary role of masters of peasantry to Ronaldo's supreme "one ring to rule them all" authority, secondary peasant-like players whose primary role is merely to maximize Ronaldo's goal scoring, which is not surprisingly why Dybala got the wrong end of the stick; this was actually extremely easy to predict... I called it the moment Juve signed Ronaldo.

    I honestly think that, in all likelihood, this is more of a flaw of Ronaldo, than it is a flaw of Dybala.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    https://ronaldo.com/football-news/benzema-enjoying-attacking-role-without-ronaldo/

    Benzema:

    “Before there was a guy who scored more than 50 goals a season and I was in the role of provider.

    “I played geared to Cristiano. We formed a good duo. I looked for him continually with the objective to help him score even more goals.

    “Now, I am the leader of the attack. It is up to me to make the difference. I am very happy because I can play my true football.”
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is no secret that world class creative players in the mold of Lio Messi, Dybala, Neymar, Hazard, etc., will rarely ever be open to the idea of reducing and degrading themselves to a second-fiddle role, just so that Ronaldo can have literally 100% of the overall service to himself. Moreover, I cannot even begin to imagine any of those creative players 'suiting' Ronaldo's non-diverse game of having his header ability be the target of cross after cross after cross, etc. I mean, yes, Ronaldo's header ability is amazing, but not a single one of those creative players would ever 'suit' the one dimensional tactics that Juventus and that Real Madrid built around the older Ronaldo.
     
  16. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Messi’s performance against a weaker Utd team that had a come back against PSG is still pretty impressive. Utd looked scary until Barca got the lead. In fact they might’ve been pretty tough to beat if it was a 1-1.
     
  17. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It literally took me 10 minutes. Using the 'search' function is very easy and very quick if you have a good memory i.e. if you immediately look for the right words and the correct date.

    As usual, you really are something of an imbecile when you find yourself out of arguments. And you backtracking on your wrong opinion, is something I could care less about, my point was simply and merely to report how much of a clueless reductive fanboy you are. And indeed, if Juventus is not overrated in your opinion, then please explain how Ronaldo at his best has created an inferior Juventus that scores less goals in the Serie A and simultaneously looks worse in the Champions League as well; how does that happen??
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #343 carlito86, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
    PSG are the eternal chokers of the champions league
    This was a team that fluffed a 4-0 advantage in 2016 against barcelona

    They literally imploded under pressure.
    Psg can never ever be used to substantiate the quality of another team

    Manchester united were on a bad run in all competitions
    Christmas is over for ole and the manchester united board will come to rue their decision to back him

    Yet another disasterous call by ed woodward
    He just cant seem to ever make the rig decision
     
  19. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I just watched Juventus give 100% of their service to just one 34 year old player, which was predictable and one dimensional as far as tactics go, and which arguably was a big reason as to why Ajax played them out of the park over the two legs.

    Take Ronaldo out, keep Dybala and Higuain in, and Juventus very probably also scores 2 goals in 2 games against Ajax; 3 goals in 2 games against an Atletico Madrid that is leaking 3-1 defeats against the worst Real Madrid in years; etc. From a collective viewpoint, 2 goals in 2 games vs. Ajax is extremely ordinary; moreover, 3 goals in 2 games against an Atletico Madrid that conceded 3 goals in just 1 game vs. Real Madrid, is also extremely ordinary. You continue to fail to understand how statistics work in this sport.

    Ronaldo 'failing miserably' is only a small and rather insignificant aspect of the prediction, the bigger and the most important element of the prediction is that Juventus is too overrated for CR7 to make them truly competitive against the top tier clubs, which appears to be exactly the case.
     
    Danko repped this.
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Enough of the diatribes keyboard warrior
    Talking tough does not make you tough

    This is another post filled with fallacious arguments

    "Ronaldo at his best"
    According to whom(you?)
    Must be because you will never find any place where i claimed this

    "Has created an inferior juventus"
    Juventus havent won a single league game when ronaldo wasnt playing on the pitch

    "Has made them "look worse" in the league(they are undefeated with him playing)
    Worse in the champions league(should this even be dignified with a response)

    What else?
     
  21. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    No they aren’t.
     
  22. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think “Post-World Cup failure Messi” is a thing now. Like 2018-19 Messi seems more motivated and more hungry than ever similar to 2010-11 and 2014-15 version. I don’t see why Barca aren’t the favourites over Liverpool? Plus, we’re more complete than ever at least.
     
  23. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    @leadleader also believes Ronaldo was behind 9/11 and despite being born over 20 years after, he is close to releasing his compelling thesis detailing that Ronaldo not only orchestrated JFK’s murder, he was actually the sniper that later framed Lee Harvey Oswald.
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    They are undefeated in the league with him on the pitch
    Losing both games he did not play
    The truth hurts but its not my fault
     
  25. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Recent chokers*. Eternal implies they have a constant relevance in this competition. They don’t. Can’t give the sheikhs more credit than they already extract from the ground.
     

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