Lionel Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo; better UEFA Champions league career?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sexy Beast, Jul 31, 2018.

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  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #251 carlito86, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
    We will agree to disagree regarding CR/R9(their dribbling similarities)

    The serie A of the late 90s is not the serie A of prime baggio(92-94) let alone the same as that of van basten(when the league averaged 2.27 goals per match and van basten scored 25 goals)

    You hear alot
    R9 faced defender x,y,z incomparable to what was faced by lio and cris

    Fact is most of the really outstanding defenders he faced in italy were stacked on 1 or 2 teams and R9s record against milan/juventus as a striker was even less impressive than maradonas as a AM
    (and baggio scored way more impressive goals against inter/milan/napoli than R9 ever did-this is clear)

    do you have any examples of R9 looking less fit in 98/99 compared to 97/98?
    There is footage of him leaving 3 real madrid players in his wake in 1 dribbling run during the 98/99 CL
    In the 99 copa he dribbled past 5 chilean players in 1 run

    R9 was in the same physical condition Till his injury
    There are strikers as gabriel batistuta who maintained a steady rate of scoring in serie A for a mid table fiorentina
    Why not R9 on a improved team as 98/99 inter?
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It was a performance with two faces really.

    Ronaldo's overall play was again not impressive and France Football rated him with a 5/10.

    The flipside is Juventus having only 1 shot on target all match and only a 14% shooting accuracy (that's very low). Juventus had an 'expected goals' (according to Caley/OPTA on twitter) of just 0.7. Ronaldo helped to set up his goal, pre-assisted his goal.

    Let's not overlook though he was playing against a club with a wage bill lower than Celtic, only 60% of FC Porto (how is that possible in a much poorer country with fewer citizens??) and a budget half of Crystal Palace. Basically he was playing against a Serie B team.

    The positive thing is CR7 being decisive in a later stage Champions League game while his own team gets thoroughly outplayed and is in trouble.
     
  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Official contribution ... that's a new term :ROFLMAO:

    If you don't think that Messi pass was nothing ... then you're just trolling now. Plus, Smalling probably broke his nose in the 1st half.

    In essence both player are at a point where they can't influence game play as they used to. Ajax dominated most of the game and other than the goal, Ronaldo was quiet. ManU pushed up their press after Barca scored and Messi was mostly contained.
     
  4. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Probably Messi’s worst CL performance since that second leg against Atletico a few years back.

    Ronaldo did what he had to do, coming back from injury and playing his first game for Juve since the Atletico game.

    Juventus’s midfield may be too weak to win this competition IMO. They should have bolstered it better because this was clear since the season began.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Celtic is 25% higher actually.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Where it has to be said RB Salzburg (as part of the wider RB network) is probably a tricky one.

    It does make we wonder where the Portuguese clubs get the money from (yes I know the league is very lopsided for leagues of that size, with 11 clubs below 5000 home visitors - an extremely lopsided revenue distribution).
     
  6. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes thanks, that surely must play a part.

    You know it better than me but I think not all of that 350+ million flows back to the club? (TPO, high profit for agents etc.). The close connection to the fancy South American market helps ('Soccernomics' etc. have established those players tend to be more expensive, go at a premium).

    FC Porto seems to be better run than Benfica.

    The other thing is the very lopsided nature of the league. At least eleven clubs with attendances below 5000. UEFA's FFP and benchmarking report shows the TV revenue distribution ("ratio of high to median clubs") is a factor 15 (!!) in Portugal and a factor 3.5 to 3 in Scotland and Netherlands (Spain used to be a factor 9 but is now improving somewhat). I'm not saying this is 'bad' by definition, within that context.
     
  8. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Correct. And Porto used to be better run but Benfica holds the mantle now. In terms of pipeline of youth talent, which was a result of Benfica's investment in a new academy years back, it's not even comparable. Benfica also makes lists like the Deloitte Money League of Top 30 clubs (by revenue I believe), whereas Porto hasn't. Benfica's also been dominating domestically in the past 5 years or so, but Porto had full domination from the 90s up until this recent period. Their president, Pinto Da Costa, is pretty old and not as sharp as he once was, but for my money he is the best president in club football history. He took over decades ago and transformed Porto from Portugal's 3rd team behind Benfica and Sporting to European champions twice, plus UEFA Cup victories.

    And yes, very lopsided league. The Big 3 account for probably 95% of fans in the country. Sad but the Big 3 would be considerably weaker if that wasn't the case.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    "Official contribution" was me sarcastically addressing your claim that messi made a (fake) assist
    Ronaldo also made a cross "assist"against manchester united this season That wasnt credited to him
    So cry me a river ok

    The fact is ronaldo was decisive in a game during which he was quiet.
    Messi was not
    This is all that matters (not key pass or midfield dribble that lead to nothing)

    This reminds me of the 2011/12 CL SF when some fans claimed ronaldo and messi were both quiet and "were the same"
    NO

    One player scored 2 goals+1 assist
    The other made 1 assist and missed a crucial penaty
    They are not the same
     
  10. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    It was just a nose bleed
    Not a big deal

    Maybe you never heard of bert trautman a goalkeeper who played in the 1956 FA cup final with a broken neck
    Maradona in 1990 played the whole WC with toe and ankle injuries
    (Others the same as puskas in 54 with ankle injuries and CR in WC 14 with tendonitis)

    Nobody made excuses for these players
    messi played a bad game and he doesnt have many of those

    His bad games have been more often come in big ko games since 2013(with a gap year in 14/15)
    This is what it is(without sugar coating)
     
  12. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #263 carlito86, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019

    contrary to what has been said the ko stage "king" was not born in 2017
    Ronaldo has always been more/as prolific in ko rounds

    In manchester united 11 of his total 15 CL goals came in KO rounds:74%

    In juventus 4 of his 5 CL goals came in KO rounds:80%

    In real madrid 49 of his 105 CL goals came in KO rounds:47%

    64 KO goals out of 124 goals:51%
     
  14. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    It is a testament to Messi's greatness that in one of the poorest games he played all year he still creates the winning goal, has a fantastic shot on net (saved by De Gea) and another free kick that could have easily been a goal if his own teammate wasn't in the way of the ball. Also threw a few more passes to Roberto and Alba that led to fantastic chances.

    When Ronaldo doesn't score, he almost invariably has a terrible game. His output with regards to creation at this stage of his career is basically non-existent. He does his role better than arguably any other player but it is a very limited role. Ronaldo's role is to score goals. Messi's role is to score goals and create goals.
     
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  15. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #265 leadleader, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
    In my opinion, nobody - no reasonable person that I know of for that matter - is actually saying that Ronaldo's Champions League KO Stage record was strictly 'born' in 2017, but at the same time, it is crystal clear to anybody with any respectable sense of perspective and experience on the subject matter, that Ronaldo benefited from a consistent stream of unique (unprecedented in fact) luck, especially after 2015 of course, but not withstanding, I think it's important to also acknowledge that the first chapter of said unprecedented, almost mystical, stream of luck was the 2014 campaign where he scored a ton of meaningless goals.

    Champions League KO Stage 2014:

    4 goals vs. Schalke / 9-2 blow-out aggregate win for Real Madrid.

    1 goal vs. Borussia Dortmund / 3-2 aggregate win for Real Madrid / and, for the record, Ronaldo's only meaningful goal.

    2 goals vs. Bayern Munich / 5-0 blow-out aggregate win for Real Madrid / all of Ronaldo's goals are totally meaningless here, that is, besides just being useful and/or impressive statistics for the Ronaldo propaganda machine.

    1 goal vs. Atletico Madrid / 4-1 win in extra-time, after Sergio Ramos scored a 90th minute header to force the game into extra-time / again Ronaldo scored a 120th minute penalty kick i.e. a totally meaningless goal.

    Champions League KO Stage 2017:

    0 goals vs. Napoli / 6-2 blow-out aggregate win for Real Madrid.

    5 goals vs. Bayern Munich / 6-3 blow-out aggregate win after extra-time, and especially, after some of the very worst refereeing of all time / 2 out of the 5 goals were clearly off-side goals that should've been ruled off, those 2 goals certainly wouldn't have stood if the VAR had been in place at the time / 3 out of the 5 goals were scored against a red-card-depleted Bayern Munich, especially after the Vidal red card that took the breath out of Bayern's inspiration in that second leg.

    3 goals vs. past-prime Atletico Madrid / 4-2 aggregate win for Real Madrid.

    2 goals vs. Juventus / 4-1 blow-out win in regular time, there was no need for extra-time given how vastly superior Real Madrid's midfield clearly was on the night.

    Champions League KO Stage 2014 + 2017:

    So just looking at 2014 and 2017 as the sum of two isolated campaigns, we already have the following uniquely pro-Ronaldo conclusion: 18 goals for Ronaldo, meanwhile, Messi in his entire career has a total of 42 goals, which means that 2014 + 2016 alone has Ronaldo scoring 43% of Messi's total.

    Furthermore, out of Ronaldo's 18 goals in 2014 + 2017, 7 out of 18 were factually meaningless textbook stat-padding, 3 out of 18 were scored after Bayern Munich had been depleted on the basis of red cards, 3 out of 18 were scored against an Atletico Madrid with a mediocre record against top clubs, 2 out of 18 were in fact off-side goals (these 2 off-side goals are in effect 2 of the 3 goals that he scored against red-card-depleted Bayern Munich, and as such should not be noted as additional goals to the total sum), etc. I mean, honestly, some fans might like it or dislike it, but the fact is that it is relatively simple to demonstrate how 13 out of the 18 goals were directly assisted or at least half-assisted by extraordinary circumstances largely outside of Ronaldo's merit as an individual player.

    Other similar extraordinary circumstances in other years, include Neymar getting injured in 2018, or Juventus being significantly depleted for the first-leg where Ronaldo starred, or Liverpool's GK having quite probably the worst mental breakdown in Champions League Era history, or Liverpool's Mohamed Salah getting injured when the game was only starting, etc.

    Which brings me to other more important logical arguments, such as: Messi 2014 - 2016 was getting Atletico Madrid in the Quarter Finals, not only in effect cutting Messi's campaign short, but additionally making it very difficult for Messi to score goals in the Quarter Finals. And with that in mind, in terms of the Messi v Ronaldo debate it's very important to acknowledge that I do not need to assume anything here given the context, because Ronaldo himself scored ZERO open-play goals in 4 games vs. Atletico Madrid 2014 (Final with extra-time), Atletico Madrid 2015 (Quarter Finals), and Atletico Madrid 2016 (Final with extra-time).

    Question: How did Ronaldo 'evolved' from a player with ZERO open-play goals in 4 games (plus 2 different extra-times) vs. Atletico Madrid 2014 - 2016, into a player who now has scored 5 open-play goals in just 4 games vs. Atletico Madrid 2017 - 2019??

    Atletico Madrid's Post-2016 Decline:

    Atletico Madrid 2017 - 2019
    ( vs. difficult or decent opponents )

    vs. Real Madrid Champions League 2016/17
    0-3 defeat away game / 2-1 win home game / 4-2 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Bayern Munich Champions League 2016/17
    1-0 win home game / 0-1 defeat away game / 1-1 draw.

    vs. Barcelona La Liga 2016/17
    1-1 draw away game / 1-2 defeat home game / 2-3 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Real Madrid La Liga 2016/17
    0-3 defeat home game / 1-1 draw away game / 1-4 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Chelsea Champions League 2017/18
    1-2 defeat home game / 1-1 draw away game / 2-3 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Roma Champions League 2017/18
    0-0 draw away game / 2-0 win home game / 2-0 aggregate win.

    vs. Barcelona La Liga 2017/18
    1-1 draw home game / 0-1 defeat away game / 1-2 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Real Madrid La Liga 2017/18
    0-0 draw home game / 1-1 draw away game / 1-1 draw.

    vs. Borussia Dortmund Champions League 2018/19
    0-4 defeat away game / 2-0 win home game / 2-4 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Juventus Champions League 2018/19
    2-0 win home game / 3-0 defeat away game / 2-3 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Barcelona La Liga 2018/19
    1-1 draw home game / 0-2 defeat away game / 1-3 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Real Madrid La Liga 2018/19
    0-0 draw away game / 1-3 defeat home game / 1-3 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Real Madrid + Barcelona La Liga & Champions League 2017 - 2019
    6-11 aggregate defeat home games / 3-7 aggregate defeat away games / 9-18 aggregate defeat.

    Atletico Madrid 2014 - 2016
    ( vs. difficult or decent opponents )

    vs. Barcelona Champions League 2013/14
    1-1 draw away game / 1-0 win home game / 2-1 aggregate win.

    vs. Real Madrid Champions League 2013/14
    1-1 draw neutral game in regular time / 1-4 defeat neutral game after extra-time

    vs. Barcelona La Liga 2013/14
    0-0 draw home game / 1-1 draw away game / 1-1 draw.

    vs. Real Madrid La Liga 2013/14
    1-0 win away game / 2-2 draw home game / 3-2 aggregate win.

    vs. Real Madrid Champions League 2014/15
    0-0 draw home game / 0-1 defeat away game / 0-1 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Real Madrid La Liga 2014/15
    2-1 win away game / 4-0 win home game / 6-1 aggregate win.

    vs. Barcelona La Liga 2014/15
    1-3 defeat away game / 0-1 defeat home game / 1-4 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Barcelona Champions League 2015/16
    1-2 defeat away game / 2-0 win home game / 3-2 aggregate win.

    vs. Bayern Munich Champions League 2015/16
    1-0 win home game / 1-2 defeat away game / 2-2 draw / 2-2 win on the basis of the away goal rule.

    vs. Real Madrid Champions League 2015/16
    1-1 draw neutral game after extra-time / game decided by the PK shootout lottery.

    vs. Real Madrid La Liga 2015/16
    1-1 draw home game / 1-0 win away game / 2-1 aggregate win.

    vs. Barcelona La Liga 2015/16
    1-2 defeat home game / 1-2 defeat away game / 2-4 aggregate defeat.

    vs. Real Madrid + Barcelona La Liga & Champions League 2014 - 2016
    11-6 aggregate win home games / 9-11 aggregate defeat away games / 20-17 aggregate win.
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #266 carlito86, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
    To briefly summarise:
    Ronaldo 13/14 was the most dominant club competition performance ever

    He did not just lead with goals(17)
    He led the competition in assists(6)
    Who cares if he did not score the important goals vs schalke
    He flipping created them(4 goals+2 assists+1 pre assist)
    Get that in your head please mate
    this has been covered around 1 million times already:sleep:

    He had a hand in the 1st goal vs bayern 14(fact) with a pre assist
    He created his own FK oppourtunity and scored from a counter attack goal

    His 3 goal involvements is more than any real madrid player
    And he was injured

    One average final performance doesnt change what he did up to that point which was obliterate any team that stood in his path

    17 goals+6 assists+2 pre assists in 11 CL games:2.27 goals per match

    will not be repeated in 100 years

    The myth of the poor atletico vs strong atletico can be debunked easily
    Messi did not score a single goal against atletico madrid 13/14 in 6 games
    Ronaldo scored against them
    in the league
    In the copa del rey
    In the champions league
    Case closed


    In 14/15 even when he did not score or assist he put a all round performance vs atletico(in the league) that messi never did during 14-16

    And of course in the champions league he assisted the winning QF goal

    When ronaldo isnt scoring the goals against strong champions league teams he is creating them
    He is seldomly completely anonymous(very rare)



    .....compared to messi who went missing in at least 15-20 QF to final matches
     
  17. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messi scored 5 goals against Atletico in 14/15 and 15/16 season iirc. All of them were in league and copa del rey
     
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  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I stand to be corrected regarding that specific statement

    In any case what i intended to demonstrate was that even without goals or assists CR was very capable of putting on a WC performance against atletico in their "prime"
     
  19. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    You dont seriously believe that do you. Anybody who has any concept of the function of a neck knows that no one can play with a broken neck.

    Besides the fact that people with a broken neck cannot not properly function without assistance, people go paralysed in their arms and/or legs after such injuries.

    And of course, of all people it would be an Englishman to overexaggerate a claim in order to make headlines as they have such a reputation for doing so in football.
     
  20. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    You dont seriously believe that do you. Anybody who has any concept of the function of a neck knows that no one can play with a broken neck.

    Besides the fact that some people with a broken neck cannot not properly function without assistance, others go paralysed in their arms and/or legs after such injuries.

    And of course, of all people it would be an Englishman to overexaggerate a claim in order to make headlines as they have such a reputation for doing so in football

    In any case, as unbelievable as Messi is, he needs to step up his champions league performances. And a big part has to do with effort from what I see. Too often it's lacking.
    Not always but often. But who knows. Messi could end up winning 2-3 more champions league with some big time performances and it would change everything. But thats just speculation. Ronaldo won 4 champions leagues on the back end of his career
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #271 carlito86, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019

    Wow

    This is great stuff(the admission)For a long time i thought you believed he walked on water(like jesus?)
    the GOAT vs BOAT debate raised by danko previously is interesting

    For me i have no doubt if he clinches a 6th champions league he will be the greatest footballer since Pele

    Can you be greater than someone who won 3 world cups
    With a 1+ gpg against the strongest european sides of his era
    Tropiero is really fanatical with his blind admiration of brazilian stars but he is also right i think

    In his time no one was as dominant as pele
    His case is much easier to make compared to maradona and cruyff
    He has the stats(at least 750+ were undeniable)
    He has the titles
    And he was very gifted athletically and technically

    His era was the joint most competitive(with this one)
    He would have 5 guarenteed ballon dors i believe had he been eligible
    (60-65 is clear)

    1959 with 125 goals inc friendlies
    Could he overcome ADS at his peak as a total footballer
    Maybe or maybe not i dont know

    In any case Greatness isnt strictly determined by skillset and league titles
    Ronaldo is iconic as they come
    He is now almost "the guarentee of victory"
    Ancelloti confirmed this when he said madrid had a mental edge everytime they stepped on the pitch.
    A 1-0 advantage if CR is on your team

    If we can put pele to one side(who had many advantages too particuarly at international level)
    Lionel messi and cristiano ronaldo for me are the 2 greatest players in the history of this game

    I still think the influence of prime cruyff as a "midfield general"was arguably greater/higher than CR
    Particularly as a organiser and defensive aspects

    But.. there is the record(s) of CR that cant even be scripted
    50+ goals for 6 consecutive seasons
    250 career assists
    125 CL goals(more than half in the ko stage)
    Who the hell does that!!!!

    The transformation from 06-09 as complete winger to 10-14 as complete forward to the now as GOAT striker
    Is unheard of
    We always use to hear goalscoring instinct is something you have or dont
    Ronaldo doesnt recognise barriers to his ability
    He learnt it from scratch and became very arguably the best at it(ever)


    The Guy is freaking beast
    At this stage anything less than top 5 is an opinion that shouldnt even be entertained
     
  22. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    His great goalscoring record against European Clubs mostly came from friendlies.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/pele-s-santos-vs-european-clubs-statistical-overview.157423/

    Also what makes his era the joint most competitive I fail to understand.
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #273 carlito86, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
    There is a case that the friendlies from his era shouldnt be confused with the ones from this(which for big teams closely resembled training matches)

    Not saying they should be given the same weight as official goals but it would be unfair to completely disregard them

    I did say anyways thats peles 750+ goals were undeniable(official)
    Which was still more than CR/messi
    Up to now(and they werent conventional strikers as muller/romario who also appear higher)


    Regarding the competiveness of his era i was referring to his competitors as eusebio,charlton,best,rivera,sivori,suarez,garrincha,old puskas who was like CR 16-19 etc
    Pele was the dominant player of that decade even though his influence dwindled in the latter half
     
  24. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    To be fair, though, Atletico Madrid in its prime years never did well in the Copa del Rey, and I assume that it was largely due to their lack of depth (budget) relative to Barcelona or Real Madrid, which is why I also assume that Atletico Madrid didn't take the Copa del Rey too seriously in those seasons between 2014 and 2016.

    Furthermore, I should add that the results tell the story in my opinion, I mean, Atletico Madrid 2012/13 won the Copa del Rey, but then Atletico Madrid 2013/14 suddenly became a legitimate candidate for both La Liga (which Atletico 2013/14 actually did win) and the Champions League (which Atletico 2013/14 almost wins if not for a heroic Ramos header in minute 90+), and you can see that the results in the Copa del Rey are not good at all (mediocre in fact) at any point between 2014 and 2017, as if Atletico Madrid's powers that be decided that the Copa del Rey wasn't in their best interest since - given their inferior depth - it would interfere with their campaigns in both La Liga and the Champions League.

    Personally, the above is why I tend to ignore the Copa del Rey when measuring either Messi's or Ronaldo's statistics vs. Atletico Madrid.
     
  25. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    I understand what you're trying to say. However a counter argument can be made that the modern era is the least competitive due to only CR7 and Messi being a consistent Ballon d'Or candidate.

    If we're talking about the most defensively solid era then I'm sure it's not 50's/60's
     

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