Lionel Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo; better UEFA Champions league career?

Sexy Beast · Jul 31, 2018

People saying that UCL should be renamed to Cristiano Ronaldo thropy once he retires, sparked the question inside me: "is he really that dominant?". In order to answer that question i openned this thread so that we can compare him to, quite frankly, only competition for such recognition, Lionel Messi, but the method by which we are going to compare them are not stats or team thropies, but individual performances, in KO, rated on a scale from 1 to 10 and then added all up. If done correctly, result should end up being an average rating (AR) across all KO matches in their careers.
Let me repeat this again, this is not a thread were we argue who is the better of two and why, all we do here is we argue what ratings each of them deserve for any particular KO performance and then formula does the rest.

I know that bunch of you think i just want to make Messi look better, but i dont and i am open for debating any rating.. so without further ado, let's start.

This is my thread so i define a scale. It's from 1 to 10, 10 being the highest so here are some adjectives that describe each individual performance:

10/10 - historical, near perfection, top-tier

9/10 - remarkable, memorable, tremendously influential

8/10 - great, world class, very influential, very useful

7/10 - good, influential, useful

6/10 - okay, fine, neutral

5/10 - bad, hurtful

4/10 - i dont think we have to bother with this one...

NOTE: We are talking about net contribution. So someone can do good stuff worth 7/10, but he also does some bad stuff so he neutralizes the positive effect and gets 6/10. I guess what i am saying is that: use common sense.
I think some might really have problem understanding the scale so there is no harm in showing another perspective that you may use, that i personally prefer the most. For this one you look at the impact player had and then you theorize on how much would it make negative difference (on his team performance), if he wasnt playing.
If his absence would result in:

complete difference for worse, then it's 10/10 performance

major difference, 9/10

noticeable difference, 8/10

slight difference, 7/10

no difference, 6/10

his team would actually perform better, 5/10

Let me start my breakdown by games from the most recent Messi's performances:
NOTE: These are not my final ratings. I refreshed my mind on some of those performances recently, but not 100% sure unless it's bolded. " * " means that there is lack of footages so it's my best guess and i will need help on that. In brackets is my alternative rating that i am thinking of (but still second choice).

Messi:

2018:
Chelsea A: 7/10
Chelsea H: 10/10
Roma H: 7/10 (6)
Roma A: 6/10

Overall: 30/40
AR: 7,50

2017:
PSG A: 5/10
PSG H: 7/10
Juve A: 8/10 (7)
Juve H: 6/10

Overall: 26/40
AR: 6,50

2016:
Arsenal A: 8/10 (7)
Arsenal H: 7/10 (6)
Atletico H: 7/10
Atletico A: 6/10

Overall: 28/40
AR: 7,00

2015:
City A: 9/10
City H: 10/10
PSG H: 7/10
PSG A: 7/10
Bayern H: 10/10
Bayern A: 7/10
Juve N: 7/10

Overall: 57/70
AR: 8,14

2014:
City A: 7/10 (8)
City H: 8/10
Atletico H: 7/10
Atletico A: 6/10

Overall: 28/40
AR: 7,00

Now to much more controversial part i presume.

Ronaldo:

2018:
PSG H: 7/10 (6)
PSG A: 7/10
Juve A: 10/10
Juve H: 7/10
Bayern A: 6/10
Bayern H: 6/10
Liverpool N: 6/10 (5)

Overall: 49/70
AR: 7,00

2017:
Napoli H: 8/10
Napoli A: 6/10
Bayern H: 9/10
Bayern A: 7/10
Atletico H: 9/10
Atletico A: 6/10
Juve N: 7/10

Overall: 52/70
AR: 7,43

2016:
Roma A: 7/10
Roma H: 7/10
Wolf A: 6/10
Wolf H: 7/10
-City A-
City H: 6/10
Atletico N: 6/10 (7)

Overall: 39/60
AR: 6,50

2014:
Schalke A: 8/10
Schalke H: 8/10
Dortmund* H: 7/10 (6)
-Dortmund A-
Bayern H: 7/10
Bayern A: 7/10 (8)
Atletico N: 6/10

Overall: 43/60
AR: 7,17

That's what ive got so far, comments?

carlito86 · Jul 31, 2018

Sexy Beast said: ↑

People saying that UCL should be renamed to Cristiano Ronaldo thropy once he retires, sparked the question inside me: "is he really that dominant?". In order to answer that question i openned this thread so that we can compare him to, quite frankly, only competition for such recognition, Lionel Messi, but the method by which we are going to compare them are not stats or team thropies, but individual performances, in KO, rated on a scale from 1 to 10 and then added all up. If done correctly, result should end up being an average rating (AR) across all KO matches in their careers.
Let me repeat this again, this is not a thread were we argue who is the better of two and why, all we do here is we argue what ratings each of them deserve for any particular KO performance and then formula does the rest.

I know that bunch of you think i just want to make Messi look better, but i dont and i am open for debating any rating.. so without further ado, let's start.

This is my thread so i define a scale. It's from 1 to 10, 10 being the highest so here are some adjectives that describe each individual performance:

10/10 - historical, near perfection, top-tier

9/10 - remarkable, memorable, tremendously influential

8/10 - great, world class, very influential, very useful

7/10 - good, influential, useful

6/10 - okay, fine, neutral

5/10 - bad, hurtful

4/10 - i dont think we have to bother with this one...

NOTE: We are talking about net contribution. So someone can do good stuff worth 7/10, but he also does some bad stuff so he neutralizes the positive effect and gets 6/10. I guess what i am saying is that: use common sense.
I think some might really have problem understanding the scale so there is no harm in showing another perspective that you may use, that i personally prefer the most. For this one you look at the impact player had and then you theorize on how much would it make negative difference (on his team performance), if he wasnt playing.
If his absence would result in:

complete difference for worse, then it's 10/10 performance

major difference, 9/10

noticeable difference, 8/10

slight difference, 7/10

no difference, 6/10

his team would actually perform better, 5/10

Let me start my breakdown by games from the most recent Messi's performances:
NOTE: These are not my final ratings. I refreshed my mind on some of those performances recently, but not 100% sure unless it's bolded. " * " means that there is lack of footages so it's my best guess and i will need help on that. In brackets is my alternative rating that i am thinking of (but still second choice).

Messi:

2018:
Chelsea A: 7/10
Chelsea H: 10/10
Roma H: 7/10 (6)
Roma A: 6/10

Overall: 30/40
AR: 7,50

2017:
PSG A: 5/10
PSG H: 7/10
Juve A: 8/10 (7)
Juve H: 6/10

Overall: 26/40
AR: 6,50

2016:
Arsenal A: 8/10 (7)
Arsenal H: 7/10 (6)
Atletico H: 7/10
Atletico A: 6/10

Overall: 28/40
AR: 7,00

2015:
City A: 9/10
City H: 10/10
PSG H: 7/10
PSG A: 7/10
Bayern H: 10/10
Bayern A: 7/10
Juve N: 7/10

Overall: 57/70
AR: 8,14

2014:
City A: 7/10 (8)
City H: 8/10
Atletico H: 7/10
Atletico A: 6/10

Overall: 28/40
AR: 7,00

Now to much more controversial part i presume.

Ronaldo:

2018:
PSG H: 7/10 (6)
PSG A: 7/10
Juve A: 10/10
Juve H: 7/10
Bayern A: 6/10
Bayern H: 6/10
Liverpool N: 6/10 (5)

Overall: 49/70
AR: 7,00

2017:
Napoli H: 8/10
Napoli A: 6/10
Bayern H: 9/10
Bayern A: 7/10
Atletico H: 9/10
Atletico A: 6/10
Juve N: 7/10

Overall: 52/70
AR: 7,43

2016:
Roma A: 7/10
Roma H: 7/10
Wolf A: 6/10
Wolf H: 7/10
-City A-
City H: 6/10
Atletico N: 6/10 (7)

Overall: 39/60
AR: 6,50

2014:
Schalke A: 8/10
Schalke H: 8/10
Dortmund* H: 7/10 (6)
-Dortmund A-
Bayern H: 7/10
Bayern A: 7/10 (8)
Atletico N: 6/10

Overall: 43/60
AR: 7,17

That's what ive got so far, comments?
Click to expand...

This is bogus ,where did you get your match ratings from
How is messi vs Bayern 2015 a 10/10
But ronaldo against atletico Madrid 2017 only a 9/10
LMFAO

How is ronaldo against Bayern away 2014 only a 7/10
Independent rated him 9/10
The guardian rated him 9/10
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...h-real-madrid-champions-league-player-ratings
Where is there such a discrepancy between your view and these verifiable sources
And there are many other match ratings I could pick out but it's really futile
and the schalke ratings..gosh (contributing to 7 goals across 2 legs,shots on target ,dribbles is only worthy of a 8/10 looool)

Sexy Beast · Jul 31, 2018

carlito86 said: ↑

This is bogus ,where did you get your match ratings from
How is messi vs Bayern 2015 a 10/10
But ronaldo against atletico Madrid 2017 only a 9/10
LMFAO

How is ronaldo against Bayern away 2014 only a 7/10
Independent rated him 9/10
The guardian rated him 9/10
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...h-real-madrid-champions-league-player-ratings
Where is there such a discrepancy between your view and these verifiable sources
And there are many other match ratings I could pick out but it's really futile
and the schalke ratings..gosh (contributing to 7 goals across 2 legs,shots on target ,dribbles is only worthy of a 8/10 looool)
Click to expand...

My evaluations, by ma scale, i dont care about guardians and shit. There are humans behind them with, probably, no more passion or understanding for football than I.
I can explain all of them, but it's self explanatory if you understand the rating system and dont fall for biases.

I would love to if you copy pasted my posts and corrected every rating of Ronaldo that you think is wrong..

Let's just say it's irony (bias, delusion) that you went into so much trouble breaking down Ronaldo's performance vs City play by play (when he happened to play better than statistic shows) in other thread, but dont even think about doing that here when statistic is good enough to give him high marks. Do it and youll see why.. absolute mismatch vs Bayern whole match, had it easy without doing anything in paticular, still scored one easy finish only, and missed ideal 3 free kicks opportunities prior to one in 89th minute... when it was long over by then. If you refer to my scale, 9/10 is having a "major difference" in team's performance, which Ronaldo hadnt that game. He in no sense whatsoever, elevated Real's game by that much, so clearly not 9/10.

Sexy Beast · Jul 31, 2018

Real won against Atletico with Ronaldo, Barcelona won vs Bayern because of Messi, it's different. Just compare quality of goals scored. Accurate 17 meters shot and chip goal vs what?..

Danko · Jul 31, 2018

Messi in 2011 vs. Madrid and Man U and 2015 vs. Bayern are possibly the three best performances in the history of CL. It was just ridiculous. Not because of how many goals he scored (two were braces and one a single) but he just took over those games. A hat trick composed of three tap-ins/routine finishes is still a great game (like Ronaldo vs. Wolfsburg 2016 or Atletico 2017) but it's not a historic performance. I can imagine a guy like Lewandowski putting together a game like Ronaldo's best which he coincidentally did against Real in 2013 when he scored a poker. I can never see any player doing what Messi did in his best matches. That's the difference.

I mean think about the Madrid game in 2011 at the Bernabeu. This little guy gets the ball from a give and go 30+ yards from the goal and goes through like five players on defense who are set (not on the break...) before slotting the ball in the corner. That counts the same as one of Ronaldo's goals but that's several levels above. Ronaldo or any other player in today's game couldn't dream of doing that. Or in 2015 when Messi just left Boateng for dead and then chipped the ball over two players + Neuer. Who else freaking does that?!?

carlito86 · Jul 31, 2018

Danko said: ↑

. Or in 2015 when Messi just left Boateng for dead and then chipped the ball over two players + Neuer. Who else freaking does that?!?
Click to expand...

Ronaldo does that(albeit in a match of less importance)

Vs

Sexy Beast · Jul 31, 2018

Danko said: ↑

Messi in 2011 vs. Madrid and Man U and 2015 vs. Bayern are possibly the three best performances in the history of CL
Click to expand...

I rate his ucl final in 2011 as 9/10 simply because he had several other players backing him with excellent performances. I believe that without Messi, Barca would still win, but much less comfortably. For support he recieved that game, end product of a one goal (with questionable goalkeeping) and involvment in 3rd one is not enough for perfect 10/10. However, he did terorize United's defense throughout whole game, he ran it, so that mere fact gives him deserved 9/10,.. even with low end product.

Danko · Jul 31, 2018

carlito86 said: ↑

Ronaldo does that(albeit in a match of less importance)

Vs

Click to expand...

Ronaldo just stops from a full sprint and the defender (Pique?) shoots past him going for a block. That's far less impressive than Messi who wasn't even going at full sprint and broke a walking Boateng's ankles. Messi's chip was more difficult as well. Not to mention in a CL semifinal.

The only guy I've seen do this Messi type shit is R9. That's why Fenomeno and Messi are the two greatest that I've seen in my time. Those guys just do things that make you scratch your head and say "I've never seen anyone do this on the soccer pitch..." Ronaldinho is in that category too but he wasn't as much of a goalscorer.

Sexy Beast said: ↑

I rate his ucl final in 2011 as 9/10 simply because he had several other players backing him with excellent performances. I believe that without Messi, Barca would still win, but much less comfortably. For support he recieved that game, end product of a one goal (with questionable goalkeeping) and involvment in 3rd one is not enough for perfect 10/10. However, he did terorize United's defense throughout whole game, he ran it, so that mere fact gives him deserved 9/10,.. even with low end product.
Click to expand...

Messi didn't just terrorize them. He made the defense tremble. That was a monumental performance. I can see it being a 9/10 for the reasons you stated but it's the best CL final I've seen just about anyone put together. Bale this year is another that comes to mind. He was just phenomenal.

I think the rankings have to somehow encompass the magnitude of the moment. A group stage masterpiece that gets a 9/10 isn't the same as a semifinal game that is 9/10.

JoCryuff98 · Jul 31, 2018

Messi anyday.

Bavarian14 · Aug 1, 2018

Those ratings of soccer websites means jack to be honest. They rated Ronaldo higher than Messi in last el classico

Sexy Beast · Aug 1, 2018

Danko said: ↑

I think the rankings have to somehow encompass the magnitude of the moment. A group stage masterpiece that gets a 9/10 isn't the same as a semifinal game that is 9/10.
Click to expand...

Yes, that was the other thing i was thinking about how to incorporate that fact,.. perhapse adding a coefficient that multiples each rating would do the trick, like

if it's final, his rating is multipled with 1:
9/10 x 1

if it's semi final:
9/10 x 0,95

quarter final:
9/10 x 0,85

R16:
9/10 x 0,775

group stage:
9/10 x 0,70

That would do the trick, but then we could argue that semi final vs Roma is not equally hard as semi final vs Bayern so we would need another coefficient for that as well, anyhow thats not much of a point atm. The main thing is to look performance from the context of a game, it's 9/10 in terms of Messi impact, but i agree it feels like 10/10 in legendary scale... at the end of the day, how many players have 9/10 performance in ucl final.

Sexy Beast · Aug 1, 2018

Bavarian14 said: ↑

Those ratings of soccer websites means jack to be honest. They rated Ronaldo higher than Messi in last el classico
Click to expand...

After all, they are just journalists, i dont see why would their opinion matter more than any of ours..

Sexy Beast · Aug 1, 2018

Messi

2011:
Arsenal A: 7/10
Arsenal H: 9/10
Shakhtar H: 7/10 (8)
Shakthar* A: 7/10
Real A: 10/10
Real H: 7/10
ManU N: 9/10

Overall: 56/70
AR: 8,00

Pretty close with 2015 campaign, unintentional tho

robnycus · Aug 1, 2018

carlito86 said: ↑

This is bogus ,where did you get your match ratings from
How is messi vs Bayern 2015 a 10/10
But ronaldo against atletico Madrid 2017 only a 9/10
LMFAO

How is ronaldo against Bayern away 2014 only a 7/10
Independent rated him 9/10
The guardian rated him 9/10
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...h-real-madrid-champions-league-player-ratings
Where is there such a discrepancy between your view and these verifiable sources
And there are many other match ratings I could pick out but it's really futile
and the schalke ratings..gosh (contributing to 7 goals across 2 legs,shots on target ,dribbles is only worthy of a 8/10 looool)
Click to expand...

Ridiculous isn’t it?
Also 7/10 against Wolfsburg after his hat trick saving our ass.. wtf ? Lol
Independent gave him a 9 and ESPN a 10.

robnycus · Aug 1, 2018

Sexy Beast said: ↑

After all, they are just journalists, i dont see why would their opinion matter more than any of ours..
Click to expand...

Because you are a fanboy and your opinion can be ridiculed online while you hide behind your keyboard whereas these folks are journalists who can be trashed publicly if their ratings are showing too much bias and are way too far from reality. Also this is what they do for a living. I am not saying that some of these people aren’t fanboys as well but when writing these ratings they have to try to be as objective as possible to build a reputation which is how these guys gain recognition in their industry.
Also, you have set your own criteria.. anyone else could have done that as well and make Cristiano end up with more points overall

DazerII · Aug 2, 2018

BadaBing trolling level here. Not worth it.

ko242 · Aug 2, 2018

Sexy Beast said: ↑

I rate his ucl final in 2011 as 9/10 simply because he had several other players backing him with excellent performances. I believe that without Messi, Barca would still win, but much less comfortably. For support he recieved that game, end product of a one goal (with questionable goalkeeping) and involvment in 3rd one is not enough for perfect 10/10. However, he did terorize United's defense throughout whole game, he ran it, so that mere fact gives him deserved 9/10,.. even with low end product.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!!!! @carlito86 you need to take a good luck at this. I stand in the same boat as sexybeast. I know you have your own opinions but I think he nailed it right on the head.

You tend to rate Ronaldo 13/14 games vs Schalke, Bayern 13/14 and roma 06/07 as good games of CR7. However, in my opinion as sexybeast wrote, these games could have been won without Ronaldo. Just as Messi played his best against Man U 2011 final, it's not a 10/10 simply because of the fact that the whole team was in sync. And although Messi made it easier they still could have clearly won without him.

ko242 · Aug 2, 2018

robnycus said: ↑

Because you are a fanboy and your opinion can be ridiculed online while you hide behind your keyboard whereas these folks are journalists who can be trashed publicly if their ratings are showing too much bias and are way too far from reality. Also this is what they do for a living. I am not saying that some of these people aren’t fanboys as well but when writing these ratings they have to try to be as objective as possible to build a reputation which is how these guys gain recognition in their industry.
Also, you have set your own criteria.. anyone else could have done that as well and make Cristiano end up with more points overall
Click to expand...

Nah, Nah, Nah. @Sexy Beast had very similar ratings to mine so I won't bother posting at the moment.
But you do have a good point @robnycus. But You can't expect people to be perfect on the 1st rating that we make. That's why we are here to discuss. He never insulted Ronaldo. But i agree, given the fact that even though CR7 played bad overall against Wolfsburg, he did score the 3 goals that took them to the next round. So I would give it at least a 9/10.
And don't forget we don't care about what random sources say. We are here to think for ourselves, that's why we take part on this forum. In any case, I think more often than not, you tend to hold a fair opinion. I would like to see your ratings of both players

robnycus · Aug 2, 2018

@ko242 I dont think is about imperfection but does it really make sense to engage in a discussion with someone who displays a strong bias in their ratings?
I also dont intend to privide any ratings based on some random criteria. I have my own and I always base my ratings based on it.
When comparing these two one must keep in mind that one is the playmaker and the other is not.

carlito86 · Aug 2, 2018

@ko242
Ronaldo was the one who singlehandedly took the game to at their home (with superb all round attacking play and created the only goal in a 2-1 loss)
In the home leg he was again the protagonist behind Manchester United's greatest performance in the champions league (being directly involved in 6 goals,several completed dribbling runs,shots on target etc)
It cannot be conclusively proven that united would've won those games without him but considering how influential ronaldo was during the game I think there is a high enough probability they wouldn't

United don't go to the champions league final in 2009 without ronaldo I think that's pretty clear
They
They don't progress to the 2015 cl semi finals without Ronaldo's assist vs atletico
They don't progress to the semi finals of the 2016 champions league semi (without Ronaldo's intervention vs Wolfsburg)
Ronaldo's 16/17 cl ko stage performance was a master class of big game moments (he was also clutch in the groupstage with a 90 min golazo free kick to win 2-1 at sporting Lisbon and against Dortmund also scored a great goal)

Even if ronaldo was less influential in the 11/12 semis he was still clutch scoring twice in a champions league semi which is never easy (and if it was why couldn't messi score in the semi vs Chelsea in 11/12 and why has messi only scored 4 goals in champions league semi finals out of 100 champions league goal=0.04%)

Real Madrid also don't progress to the 13/14 semi finals vs Bayern without Ronaldo's crucial 3rd goal to win 3-2 aggregate vs Dortmund and they probably don't progress to the final vs atletico without Ronaldo's involvement in 3 of the 5 goals scored (including the winning goal that was scored by karim benzema not Sergio ramos)

carlito86 · Aug 2, 2018

It is become a prevalent myth that ronaldo was unimpressive against ac Milan in 06/07 (arguably the best or 2nd best team in the world along with Manchester United)
Only in the away fixture was he anonymous
In the home leg ronaldo was one of the 3 best players on the pitch and the biggest dribbling threat by far

The evening standard rated him 8/10
"Menace who thrilled with his explosive running. Deserved more."
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/united-v-ac-milan-player-989576
Another source rated him 8/10
"Plenty of penetrating runs that put Milan on back foot and dangerous in box"
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/manchester-united-v-milan-player-ratings-7175551.html

Another world class champions league performance vs a big team during 2007-2009
(Arsenal 08/09,Chelsea 07/08,Roma 06/07 and now Milan 06/07 all of which were top 10 teams in Europe during the relevant time period)

Kaka was really not a deserving ballon dor winner especially considering the level of opponents his best performances came against in the champions league(excluding Manchester United)
Ronaldo was completely dominant in the best league in Europe
Amazing in the fa cup(excluding the final)
And amazing in the champions league (excluding the 2nd leg vs Milan .he led in assists and was on the evidence of play the most dangerous dribbler in the world)
For reference check his performance vs benfica away,Lille home,Roma home and away in 2006/07

carlito86 · Aug 2, 2018

Danko said: ↑

Ronaldo just stops from a full sprint and the defender (Pique?) shoots past him going for a block. That's far less impressive than Messi who wasn't even going at full sprint and broke a walking Boateng's ankles. Messi's chip was more difficult as well. Not to mention in a CL semifinal.

The only guy I've seen do this Messi type shit is R9. That's why Fenomeno and Messi are the two greatest that I've seen in my time. Those guys just do things that make you scratch your head and say "I've never seen anyone do this on the soccer pitch..." Ronaldinho is in that category too but he wasn't as much of a goalscorer.

Messi didn't just terrorize them. He made the defense tremble. That was a monumental performance. I can see it being a 9/10 for the reasons you stated but it's the best CL final I've seen just about anyone put together. Bale this year is another that comes to mind. He was just phenomenal.

I think the rankings have to somehow encompass the magnitude of the moment. A group stage masterpiece that gets a 9/10 isn't the same as a semifinal game that is 9/10.
Click to expand...

When did r9 ever score a technically impressive goal (or dribbling goal)vs a top side in a big match
Wc (QF to final)
Copa(although his opponents were always relatively poor especially in copa 97 and 99)
Champions league QF to final (besides Manchester United)
Ronaldo de Lima during his peak or after never showed his true form (the form that gained him the name el fenomeno )against big teams

That's not to say he was unimpressive against bigger teams but none of his top dribbling performances came against defensively compact sides(maybe with exception of Parma 97/98)

Despite being a noticeably inferior dribbler cristiano had more weapons in his arsenal to hurt big teams
Whether that be leaping/towering and powerful headers to win the copa del Rey vs Barcelona in 2011(or against Roma in the cl QF in 2008 ,Chelsea 2008,united 2012)
40 yard belters (Porto 08/09)
Free kicks ,solo goals,left foot right foot finshes etc
And recently overhead kick vs juventus

It's all very well saying cristiano couldn't score the kind of solo goals r9 could do against compostela and Valencia (mid level and relegation teams)
But could r9 score the types of goals cristiano has and with the regularity that he has and against the type of opponents he has played against (and on big stages)

The answer is an emphatic NO

Lionel messi (an actual goat level dribbler)has brought his best form (club level only)against any and every type of opponent
Whether that be dribbling 5 players to score in a relatively unimportant match vs getafe to scoring a similar type goal against one of the best teams in Europe (Real Madrid) and again in a copa del rey final
A player who is actually in contention for best ever dribbler accolade doesn't miraculously regress to the level of average World class dribbler when he faces compact defences(which is exactly what players like both Ronaldo's have done)

Stop hyping r9 to a level he never reached (the furthest he could've reached without injuries is the Eusebio/puskas level he was never a player who could dictate the tempo of a match while still retaining a world class goal return i.e. Like a cruyff,maradona,zico and now messi)
Ronaldo de Lima had the potential to be the greatest striker ever but injuries prevented him.he NEVER had the potential to be the best player of all time (he was never that good or complete)

Tropeiro · Aug 2, 2018

One thing that many people forget is that play with Barcelona or Inter Milan (they weren't a TOP10 team in that time probably) is different from playing for super-teams nowadays, the expectation of goals that a Messi or a Cristiano Ronaldo have in these matches today is different than a Ronaldo or Romario or one Van Nilsterooy, Van Basten had at that time, again it is simply expected (xG) that they will make more goals.

Something that I don't understand is all this talking about potential or what someone could reach if something, who would say that at 22-years winger like Cristiano Ronaldo with a average shooting would become a "killer" - and also the guy who has more shots per game by a lwide margin - of 55 goals per season (to be honest I think most United fan didn't even expected that 06-07 performance of Ronaldo - which is arguably the best season of Ronaldo individually talking along with 09-10 imo) or that a Messi who started with the expectation of becoming an injury prone player at age 20-21 would be a guy that has played more than 80% of the games in the next decade, also for me Messi only reached his highest level of playmaking in 2014-2015, watching Messi from 2014-2015 is a completely different experince than watching Messi from 2008-2009, it wouldn't be absurd for you to watch some Barcelona games at that time and find Xavi better than Messi himself even though Messi was the most decisive.

But for some reason the best players of this generation never replicated the same numbers and sucess they had in their respective teams, nor against great NT nor did they win very important titles being the main character. No doubt we live in an era that being in the right place counts more than before.
I'm sure that in this point R9 never disappoints me playing for the Brazilian NT.

That's the problem of you comparing players at different times, with different ages, with different roles or just by stats...

ko242 · Aug 2, 2018

robnycus said: ↑

@ko242 I dont think is about imperfection but does it really make sense to engage in a discussion with someone who displays a strong bias in their ratings?
I also dont intend to privide any ratings based on some random criteria. I have my own and I always base my ratings based on it.
When comparing these two one must keep in mind that one is the playmaker and the other is not.
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You should make your own ratings if you've have the time. Sexybeast' is not perfect but it's not too far off from what I would have done. He is asking everyone to give their ratings. I don't see the problem in that. He has said he is open to change his opinion but you guys are criticizing him instead of making your own ratings.

Generally, or actually almost every time. Playmakers are considered the best players because they rely less on other players to create plays. Maradona and Pele will be regarded as better players than Gerd Müller and Eusebio. Johan Cruyff will also be rated higher. But the point is to not express opinions on play and ONLY give the ratings. Those were the rules.

ko242 · Aug 2, 2018

carlito86 said: ↑

@ko242
Ronaldo was the one who singlehandedly took the game to at their home (with superb all round attacking play and created the only goal in a 2-1 loss)
In the home leg he was again the protagonist behind Manchester United's greatest performance in the champions league (being directly involved in 6 goals,several completed dribbling runs,shots on target etc)
It cannot be conclusively proven that united would've won those games without him but considering how influential ronaldo was during the game I think there is a high enough probability they wouldn't

United don't go to the champions league final in 2009 without ronaldo I think that's pretty clear
They
They don't progress to the 2015 cl semi finals without Ronaldo's assist vs atletico
They don't progress to the semi finals of the 2016 champions league semi (without Ronaldo's intervention vs Wolfsburg)
Ronaldo's 16/17 cl ko stage performance was a master class of big game moments (he was also clutch in the groupstage with a 90 min golazo free kick to win 2-1 at sporting Lisbon and against Dortmund also scored a great goal)

Even if ronaldo was less influential in the 11/12 semis he was still clutch scoring twice in a champions league semi which is never easy (and if it was why couldn't messi score in the semi vs Chelsea in 11/12 and why has messi only scored 4 goals in champions league semi finals out of 100 champions league goal=0.04%)

Real Madrid also don't progress to the 13/14 semi finals vs Bayern without Ronaldo's crucial 3rd goal to win 3-2 aggregate vs Dortmund and they probably don't progress to the final vs atletico without Ronaldo's involvement in 3 of the 5 goals scored (including the winning goal that was scored by karim benzema not Sergio ramos)
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I don't think you read sexybeast' post correctly. He said the point is to first make the ratings. So instead of complaining and justifying, we should first make the ratings.

@Sexy Beast i will make the ratings for CR7 and Messi. I think I need till Saturday to finish and properly judge the performances. Nice thread.