Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the most famous people in history?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by JoCryuff98, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    Does their fame come close to icons like Michael Jackson, Muhammad Ali, Elvis Presley etc
     
  2. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
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    Jan 3, 2018
    I know it ain’t football related, but just a general query
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I’d assume it would be a religious figure like perhaps Jesus Christ or the Islamic founder Mohammed of could even be someone as sinister as Adolf Hitler,Stalin or the mongol warlord gengis Khan(there was a study conducted that suggested around 0.5% of the worlds population is descended from this one figure)

    I could be wrong because taking into account their social media following which would amount to a combined total of hundreds of millions they could very well be the most famous people in the world(at least today)
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I would think among sports people it could be fairly close, in terms of literally how many people know them, among the most famous. That's different to the new social media aspect, but following is different to simply knowing. I guess it depends which sports are most universally watched or at least known, and how much of a profile players retain after retirement.

    Perhaps in his heyday Pele would be right up there among famous people (past and/or at that moment present). But maybe he wouldn't be much more known and famous than a Bjorn Borg when he had won Wimbledon 5 times, or a Jack Niklaus when he had several major Golf wins? Because most people, in a majority of countries, would probably know who they were, even if not sports fans. I guess JFK was more famous than Pele though.

    I think as generations move on then current players might become the most widely known in real time among the world's population, and retried players will become a bit less famous than they were too. But some old guys possibly remember Pele but have no idea who Messi is still (possibly because their short term memory is fading though!).
     
  5. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
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    Jan 3, 2018
    4664F429-63AC-49D0-8DC2-CEFA6B6A9F38.jpeg This is Colin Cowherd’s list:ROFLMAO:. Majority of non-Americans have no idea about American athletes besides Lebron,Curry and Williams.
     
  6. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
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    Jan 3, 2018
    Golf is meh. Tiger Woods is the only famous Golfer I can think of and Pele was definitely as popular as Ali, Jordan, Borg(one of my fav Tennis player). Infact, he acted in a film known as Escape to Victory starring Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine and Bobby Moore which further propelled his fame. This dude was voted Athlete of the Century by the Olympic Committee. Football being the most popular and viewed sport( literally synonymous with the word ‘Sport’) easily make players like Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo as the most famous or influential figures of all time up there with some historical figures or entertainers like Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I don’t get the question anymore
    Are you inquiring about the most famous person in history
    Or the most famous sports figure of the last 50-60 years

    If it’s the former than arguably none of those names outside of Micheal Jackson would qualify as candidates
    If it’s the latter than Cassius Clay without a shadow of a doubt is the most iconic sports figure of the last half century

    The 60s to early 70s would be Ali and a distant second Pelé
    The 70s I’m not sure TBH (possibly Cruyff)
    The 80s would be Micheal Jordan/mike Tyson/maradona
    The 90s ayrton senna in the first half and in the second half tiger woods /Brazilian ronaldo
    The 2000s Micheal Schumacher/federer
    The 2010s would be Cristiano Ronaldo/Lionel Messi
     
  8. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

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    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    This one
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Jesus Christ clearly.
     
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  10. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    #10 JoCryuff98, Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
    Beckenbauer and Bjorn Borg as well, but I believe Cruyff was also football’s first superstar similar to Borg for Tennis. The 70s propelled major athletes to superstar status on par with entertainers. Was rocking long hair a thing among top tier athletes in order to attain superstar status??
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the actual frequent usage of the term you might be right, although this was greatly enhanced by the musical and film 'Jesus Christ Superstar' (of 1970 and 1973). The pun/wordplay is then easy to make, and various international media did. Furthermore, he was already known as a person with a diverse set of talents.

    In the way 'superstar' is nowadays understood it is a questionable idea. I saw it passing by in some obituaries but didn't have Puskas, Eusebio, Best etc. a great continental fame? What about fashion icon Rivera?

    However, a credible case can be made Cruijff was the first European who was worldwide seen as the best player in the world, even in Brazil (Placar), Argentina (El Grafico) and Japan - further aided by technological and logistical advancements.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You are possibly not too far off

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...son-history-according-software-algorithm.html

    http://ideas.time.com/2013/12/10/whos-biggest-the-100-most-significant-figures-in-history/

    I also thought about some Chinese/Asian figures (Confucius) but the English language and Latin script is just too dominant.
     
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    How to quantify that? Which % of people in the world are familiar with them?
    Using that standard people in general are more 'famous' today than at any other point in history due to technology.

    It still has to be Jesus though.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #14 carlito86, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    I beg to differ
    Nobody beyond his tribesmen and close entourage actually saw or knew gengis Khan but he was universally known and feared by all stretching from the Baltic Sea up to China
    He would most probably come under the category of notoriety rather than fame though

    Yeah it would most probably be Jesus Christ just for the sheer number of adherents to Christianity (close to 2 billion people)
    Or it could be also be the Islamic founder and it’s followers are exponentially rising year on year

    In the grand scheme of human history CR and Messi are nothing.they are undoubtedly
    iconic and famous today but outside of football they haven’t contributed a lasting legacy to human development/thought and I very much doubt they will be remembered by ordinary folk a century from now
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Also adherents to the Islam know him for sure. If you add it all together at least 6.0 to 6.5 billion people know his name and that's a careful estimate.

    Plus all those many people in the centuries before.


    They are arguably not even close to being #1 contender for sport. E.g. Jesse Owens, FB Koen, Jackie Robinson, Ali, Jerry West and a long list of others. Such significance is though not only made in the middle/during someone's career.

    The whole 'Great Man' history writing is inherently dangerous but nevertheless there are various sports people who made a wider contribution, even if you strip away the myth making.

    Babe Ruth is now effectively a century ago and he's still widely known by common people in baseball minded countries.
     
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  16. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    About what exactly?
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Re People being more famous today due to advancements in technology
    I don’t recall the Roman Empire using social media when they were convincing their subjects to embrace Jesus as their lord and saviour.


    If your are talking about the average joe celeb than maybe so but people who have truly made their mark on civilisation aren’t dependent on technological advancements for their name to live on
    Word of mouth and written records was enough up until the last century
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #18 PuckVanHeel, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    It wasn't enough. The sword and force was necessary as well.

    edit: a reason why many great non-European minds, discoverers and inventors aren't known in the West.

    With regards to sports and football it indeed is not only technology and logistics. It is also that for example some South American countries stuck their head in the sands during the 1940s and 50s, aided by government policy (Peronism for example), and stopped doing this (to an extent, at least) in the 1970s...
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yes I know but people can get abit touchy about these things
    it is a historical fact that major religions (particularly Christianity and Islam)were spread with a book in one hand and accompanied by the sword in the other
     
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  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    South America was pretty much cut off from the rest of the known world at least up until the conquistadors set sail and completely decimated their civilisation

    There is quite alot of historical evidence pointing towards them being technologically advanced especially by the standards of Middle Age Europe where many people could go most of their life without having a bath let alone developing complex calendar systems based on astronomical observations

    There is also the language barrier that undoubtedly prevented their knowledge from being circulated outside of their own borders
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    I thought a bit more about this and with regards to sports people the following matters I'd say:

    1) Technology, infrastructure and logistics
    2) Doubling of the world population over the past 50 years
    3) In football and sports minded countries, more people can write and read, or communicate in a foreign language
    4) More countries have abandoned their isolation stance, including some major football countries (England, Argentina for example)
    5) Increased media concentration (media in the original and broad sense of the word), and arguably some other major stakeholders for sports
    6) The whole transition to a service based economy, changed leisure patterns by the youth & young kids.


    For these reasons, Pelé is maybe more famous now, in absolute quantity, as he was in his playing days. The population of the United States has increased with a factor 3 since 1920, so even Babe Ruth is perhaps more famous now as back then!

    At a stretch, Pelé was also born 1940, when great parts of the world lost a big chunk of their potentially sports minded population or was permanently damaged by malnutrition.


    This is illustratively what JC14 said about this in his last television interview (march 2015)

    Show Spoiler

    "Yes true, but that is because other people project charisma onto you, just because you can do certain things very well. And for the rest... I cannot change myself so they have to accept me how I am, or not accept me."

    Interviewer: "Do you allow it to make yourself mad by all the fuss around you?"

    "No, no. That is.. Maybe when I was young it happened sometimes, but the latter years not really. And the last years it has only gotten worse, the madhouse, in some ways. Because of the smartphones, Facebook or how that is all called. That is...... If I'm not mistaken, 25 years ago three billion people in the world knew who I was and my professions, and currently it appears to be well over 5 billion."

    Interviewer: "Yes but what is that, it is only a cloud, you cannot grab it"

    "Yes indeed. That are numbers and figures to put away, and it is also that it perpetuates itself. Because whenever I want to do things, start something new from the ground, it is effectively demanded that I attach directly my name and thus my reputation directly to what I do. But luckily I don't own a smartphone so I'm not really bothered by it, and I'd like to not forget the original motivation and the goal of whatever thing I like to start."
     
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  22. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    Barring from Ali or Owens, none of these dudes are as iconic or famous as Messi or Ronaldo outside America. No American sportsmen can match Messi or Ronaldo’s fame even if Americans aren’t really familiar with them.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think the most famous pop musician (in terms of percentage of world population knowing them) was Michael Jackson.

    For actors it is more difficult but possibly Charlie Chaplin. Or a 1950s Hollywood star. Unsure about this.
     
  24. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    Probably Marlon Brando.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Though I'm not the greatest movie expert around, I'm not sure of that. For example Brando never featured higher than 6th in the famous 'money making stars' poll (1955):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Money_Making_Stars_Poll

    He has however the special distinction to also feature in the 'overpriced stars' and 'box office poison' polls (someone like Paul Newman had a far more regular career).

    Admittedly, Charlie Chaplin (named by me above) never went higher than 19th either, maybe because he wasn't regarded as an actor (??) but was surely more famous than that in the world. Famous in America, Europe and Asia (India).

    The most acclaimed actors are not necessarily the most popular and well known actors (e.g. Scientology warrior Tom Cruise).
     

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