I was one of the first posters here to say we should build around Pogba. It's not herd mentality that makes me think that, it's common ********ing sense.
Im guessing by your post gatekeeper made some idiotic comment about playing Griezman out wide in a 433 or playing pogba in a double pivot again. I gave up.
It's really not about being the first, last or anywhere in between, in terms of saying that the team needs to be built around Pogs. The day United decided to bring a 23yr old potentially elite and unique midfielder for a word record fee, it was automatically to be assumed that the team from that point forward needed to be built around him. There shouldn't even be a discussion about that. And what it means, first and foremost, is to put that asset in the best position to succeed. Right now, we know pretty unequivocally that he is at his very best on the left side of a 4-3-3. It is where his influence is the most pronounced on the pitch. We know this: perhaps in time he can grow to become more rounded and versatile, but that is later down the line. So it just means we really should be looking for players who can fit that system ideally. Some players are suited to play in certain systems, while other are far more flexible and versatile. And the bottom line is if the club is going to spend another world record fee for a player, we'd better make damn sure he is an optimal fit for the system we are trying to implement, alongside the players we already have. The facts and what we've seen, most notably with France at the Eura ast summer is that Griez is at his best in a central role in a 4-2-3-1. A formation which unfortunately does not get the very best out of Pogba. What's the point in getting a special and unique player, if we're going to treat him and limit him, like he's just some regular guy? It makes absolutely no sense at all and there's no question we have to build around Pogba...
I just hope Mou has too. I can deal with his mgmt style in big away games, providing we buy pieces that actually fit this summer. I'm tired of getting players just because they have quality, with no real implementation thought through. It's been that way for too long.
The bottom line still remains that for all his talent, Griez is not the only top player out there, who is available. If we want to spend big money on players, that's all well and good, but at least let's make sure they are players that fit into the manager's desired philosophy but a natural fit with the rest of the group as well. Plenty of good players out there to make the right choices.
I feel like you're better off buying players that fit, vs buying good players and hoping you can make it work. I'd rather get a slightly worse player that fits better, instead of hoping the better player can fit into your system. When Pogba was purchased, logic would dictate you're going to build around him. If not, what's the point?
It's a no-brainer. And as mentioned, it's not like it's Griezmann and then nothing but scrubs. As we've discussed at length in this thread alone, there are quite a few viable options for United, especially with the means available to them. Just about anyone on the market is within their reach.
Fair enough -- the herd followed you. But where does this idea that we must build around Pogba come from? Pogba is a fantastic footballer but surely you must agree that he's not at the level of Messi or Ronaldo, the kind of players you would build your squad around. It's not "common sense" at all to build around Pogba. Did we build around Scholes? No. Around Keane? No. Giggs or Beckham? No. Around Ruud? Around (peak) Rooney? Around even Ronaldo? No. Did we build around even Cantona? Of course not. Building around Pogba is not the United way. And it's absolutely not the Jose way. Thinking back to Jose's previously sides he's never built around a single player. And he'd be a fool to have done so. And a fool to start doing so now. I travel on several United forums and I don't see anyone, anywhere demanding that we build around a single player except here. Building around a single player is antithetical to everything United stands for as a football club. Say we build around Pogba. What happens when Pogba gets injured? We be fukked. What happens when Pogba dips in form? We be fukked. Let's forget about Griezmann. After all, Karloski has (alleged) insider knowledge that Antoine has no interest in joining United. And it's widely understood that Antoine would cost us an amount probably greater than the amount we spent on Pogba, which itself was astonishing. Ashur is right that there are several top players we can bring in. Gilma (maybe benni, not sure) is pushing hard for Aubameyang (sp?) and others like Morata instead. Maybe there's a holdout there somewhere who thinks we can bring in Kane or Bale. That's a perfectly reasonable discussion. Kane would be a perfect addition to the squad but there's zero chance we could lure him with any offer. The idea that whoever we bring in should only be brought in if he works well with Pogba is not an entirely irrational one, but is an idea that suffers from one massive defect when applied to arguing against Griezmann -- Pogba himself. And Griezmann himself, who at least publicly claims an affinity with Pogba. There's simply no evidence that they are incompatible with each other, that either couldn't play under Jose or that one would suffer because of the inclusion of the other in the same squad. Except for Karloski, none of us here know Griezmann personally and cannot attest to the nature of the relationship between Griezmann and Pogba. But it's widely reported, almost on a daily basis, that Pogba has been encouraging Griezmann to come to United. Griezmann himself has said that he wants to play with Pogba at the club level. Unless the media are making this stuff up, they appear to be very close friends, Paul once describing Antoine, national team teammates of course, as his "brother". Let's wrap this up with the thoughts of a man who knows a lot more about professional football than any of us clowns who spend way too much time on internet forums like this, Diego Forlan: http://www.thenational.ae/sport/eng...er-united-100m--but-he-would-be-worth-it#full [Griezmann] also has high energy levels and, like Pogba, plays almost every minute of every game. He is an attacker who works hard to defend and while he is already at a great club, he would be a great player for a club like United. But they will have to pay a lot of money for him. An awful lot. But I think he would be worth it. Let's be clear. According to Diego Forlan, Griezmann "would be a great player for a club like United" and that [85m+] "would be worth it." Not once did Diego suggest that Griezmann and Pogba are incompatible with each other or that because United must build around Pogba that Griezmann would undermine that project, or that for some mysterious reason Griezmann would be a failure under Jose. I'll take the word of Paul Pogba and Diego Forlan -- and Jose Mourinho if he actually pulls the trigger on it -- than I would on internet posters MizzouMUFC, JamesA or gatekeeper2, at least when it comes to which players would be best to optimize the squad at Manchester United. No doubt we can find much cheaper alternatives to Griezmann but there's no chance we can find a better player who would suit the Mourinho project more perfectly than Pogba's "brother" and national team teammate.
You do realize that by building around Pogba's strengths and also buying players that fit the formation and tactics you want to employ, it meas that you're essentially building the entire squad around their preferred role. That also means you could pick out nearly any player on the squad and make the argument that you built the squad around that player. Nobody is arguing that Griezmann isn't a good player. It's the argument about whether he's a good fit for the squad. Apparently people being in agreement mean we're all sheep. God forbid people agree on something. Of course they're going to say positive things. Most people in front of the media will say something positive, whether they truly believe it or not. How so? If you've built a squad that works around his talents, they'd still work in their roles without him. If you've built a balanced 4-3-3 squad, it'd still work without him. What hurts more is buying up a bunch of players then hoping you can figure out a formation that works. Buying a great player that doesn't work in your system hurts both the player that isn't a fit, and the system as a whole.
Great post. Let me try to tackle each point separately. You do realize that by building around Pogba's strengths and also buying players that fit the formation and tactics you want to employ, it meas that you're essentially building the entire squad around their preferred role. That also means you could pick out nearly any player on the squad and make the argument that you built the squad around that player. I reject the premise that Jose or United ever "builds around" a single player, even if that player were Cantona or Ronaldo. But I do agree with the desire to see Pogba succeed and I see nothing in Griezmann that would undermine Pogba's ability to succeed. Nobody is arguing that Griezmann isn't a good player. It's the argument about whether he's a good fit for the squad. Apparently people being in agreement mean we're all sheep. God forbid people agree on something. Right, but the "good fit' argument is just a restatement of the "build around Pogba" argument. What the AG naysayers -- which only exist here -- are saying is that but for Pogba of course we'd want to bring in Griezmann (putting aside cost considerations). But there's no cogent argument that supports the conclusion that Pogba and Griezmann cannot succeed together. It's not as if they're both 9s and would crowd each other out. They are two players who serve in different roles. Of course they're going to say positive things. Most people in front of the media will say something positive, whether they truly believe it or not. Point well taken, up to a point. There are plenty of contrary journos/former players out there, such as Keane and Scholes, who are often pretty tough on United, as Keane and Scholes have often been. And even then we can't just dismiss the views of former players. They offer valuable insights, whether we agree or disagree with them. Former players like Carragher and Neville have gone on to do a fantastic job as commentators. I don't always agree with them, but I don't dismiss them a priori because they "are in front of the media". We cannot assume that Forlan writes fawning shit that he doesn't believe. What does Scholes think? "If Griezmann is within reach, why wouldn't we take advantage and try to sign him, especially if our youngsters aren't at the level we need? http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ester-united-transfer-news-griezmann-12617795 How so? If you've built a squad that works around his talents, they'd still work in their roles without him. If you've built a balanced 4-3-3 squad, it'd still work without him. What hurts more is buying up a bunch of players then hoping you can figure out a formation that works. Buying a great player that doesn't work in your system hurts both the player that isn't a fit, and the system as a whole. I'll try to tackle this one briefly. The argument still relies on its own conclusion as proof without any supporting argument, that AG "wouldn't work in [our] system". Can we agree that our current attacking players aren't exactly making the "system"..."work"? We've scored 50 goals in 33 league games, which is well below any other club in the top six and well below historic norms for United. We're short a forward who's a proven creator/finisher. Antoine is a both a creator and a finisher, one of the best on the planet. We have a gap in the squad, which would be advisable to address and there's a player out there who's universally recognized as one of the best on the planet and who Pogba himself wants to bring to United. So let's forget Forlan and Scholes...why would we dismiss what Pogba himself suggests is the answer to our front line problem? There's nothing even logical in the argument that bringing in a top creator/finisher would somehow undermine the aspirations of Jose to improve the squad to the point where we can compete for the EPL and CL trophies. If the argument is that Griezmann would steal the spotlight from Pogba as he (AG, that is) is the better player that's an absurd argument which I won't dignify with a reply. Bottom line is that United needs a significant infusion of proven top players, even if that means bringing in a name that's even bigger than Pogba himself.
Different roles that require the use of two distinct systems to get the best out of each player. Do we want Pogba operating at 10/10, Griezmann operating at 10/10 or both together operating at 6/10?
First, let me just echo that you have to do some self editing because nobody is going to read these novels. But since this is directed at me, I'll bite... When we say build around Pogba, we don't mean literally surround him with guys that only work when Pogba is in the lineup. What we mean is, buy players that can be inserted into the starting lineup that don't require us to sacrifice playing our best player in a less than optimal position. Griezmann is great, nobody is arguing against that, but their are better options out there that can be played in their optimal position without meaning moving Pogba out of his optimal position. Pogba is significantly better in a 3 man midfield and Griez is at his best playing behind a CF or in a 2 forward formation. Would they work together playing one of them in a less than optimal position? I'm sure they would be fine, but why spend tons of money on a player and then put them in a less than optimal situation to succeed? Rather than go for Griezmann, we could spend less money on someone like Auba (just an example) who plays best as a lone striker. That way he comes in, plays in his favorite position, and Pogba is also put in the best formation for him to produce and develop. the "herd" doesn't really understand how this concept is so hard for you to grasp. Aside from that, why the ******** do we care what Diego Forlan thinks? The last time I checked, he has zero coaching credentials. I bet I've watched more United games this season than Diego. Just because he's a professional player doesn't mean he understands formations and our current team needs. And why are you surprised that Pogba and Griezz want to play together? They are friends. Do you expect them to publicly say, "Well, we're great friends, but I don't think we would work in the same team". Of course they wouldn't. You're argument about us not building around players is also flat out wrong. SAF, a guy that always played a 4-4-2, changed formations to a 4-3-3 for some time to get the best out of Ronaldo. Do you think we played Rooney as a LW because it was ideal? No. We played him there to get Ronaldo in the best formation for him to succeed and Rooney was forced wide.
Veron is the perfect example of how trying to shove players into a team, no matter how talented said player is or how talented the players around him were, does not always work. He simply did not fit into the team we had back then, which is why his success was sporadic at best and nowhere what it was expected to be when he was signed.
Marca are claiming that Dave has notified United of his desire to leave the club at the end of the season. Not surprising in the least with Real looking to turn it up a couple of notches in their pursuit of him. As expected, the next step is to take it to the "press" and who better than their mouthpiece to do the deed...
I missed whatever your crime was yesterday. Great to have you back. AG's critics here miss the point that both Antoine and Paul are both very versatile players. Not versatile players in the O'Shea sense, but both players who have outstanding and varying skill sets. Both are creators but they're not the same kind of creator. There are things that AG can do that PP cannot and there are things that PP can do that AG cannot. If Paul himself is to be believed, they complement each other. If Paul were to state publicly that Antoine would undermine his ability to run the show in midfield I've have to give Paul the benefit of the doubt. But Paul himself, if his own public statements are to be believed, wants Antoine to come to United. Should I believe Paul Pogba himself or some internet forum posted named Teso Dos Bichos? Griezmann is a front line attacking creator/scorer. Pogba is a midfielder creator/scorer. Both can play together brilliantly. There is no conflict between the two here except in the minds of a small handful of posters who exist on an internet forum called "BigSoccer". Out of respect for those who ask that I not "write novels" I'll leave it at that for this post.
Just as reports about Dave alleged imminent return to Spain grew today, more reports have surfaced about Oblak's agent, having spent the last couple of days in Manchester to discuss a potential transfer to United. Interesting to see where this ultimately goes.
I'll see your novel with my novel! The "less money" argument is compelling, but how much less money would Aubameyang (sp?) still cost us? 60? Whoever we bring in to strengthen the front line, we're going to spend an enormous sum. I doubt we're going to find the next Ronaldo at 12m this summer. I dismiss the "less money" argument. The "who-the-fukk-is-Diego-Forlan?" argument is sufficiently compelling to stipulate to it for the sake of moving to the points that are relevant. But, at least for the first time here, someone has offered a cogent argument against Antoine, with this: What we mean is, buy players that can be inserted into the starting lineup that don't require us to sacrifice playing our best player in a less than optimal position. Griezmann is great, nobody is arguing against that, but their are better options out there that can be played in their optimal position without meaning moving Pogba out of his optimal position. Pogba is significantly better in a 3 man midfield and Griez is at his best playing behind a CF or in a 2 forward formation. Going into next season, I assume that we will aspire to win the EPL and CL trophies. As a necessary, but not sufficient, condition, that means we need proven top players. You have conceded your acknowledgment that Antoine is a proven top player, which is a great start. But you run afoul on the argument that bringing in Griezmann necessarily "sacrifice...our best player" on several integrally related grounds: First, Pogba would no longer be "our best player" if we brought in Griezmann. I'm a massive fan of Pogba and Ashur remembers my tirade the night Ferguson started Rafael over Pogba, but he's not a better footballer than Antoine Griezmann. We just can't say "No, we're not going to bring in better players than Pogba." That may not be what you meant by the words you wrote but that's exactly the conclusion derived from what you wrote and that's exactly what it means to "build around Pogba". Second, we can implement a 433 fantastically with Griezmann and Pogba in the same side. There's absolutely no reason why we can't and there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't -- and it's Jose's favored formation in the first place. But that doesn't mean we go with a 433 every game. Jose has brought out a 352 on occasion, which would suit both AG and PP just fine. And we can deploy a 4231 with Pogba at the "10" and AG at the "9" or with Pogba in the back two with AG either in the 10 or wide left or wide right or up top. The flexibility of both players as well as their brilliance is exactly why we'd want to bring AG in, if the transfer budget allows it. (Assuming Karloski is wrong about Griezmann's inner feelings.) Third, I'm not even sure I'd rate Pogba as our best player currently. Herrera has been a much more influential player for us this season, although there's no question that he doesn't have the bag of tricks in his locker than Pogba has. And there's no question at all that Bailly has been better this season, although that may be neither here nor there. What Pogba "is" is a spectacular footballer, but what he lacks is influence in the last third (yes, he's still young, I get it). That will come in time but what United desperately need is a mobile creator/scorer who has proven himself at the highest levels of football. You might "build around" a once-in-a-generation player like Messi or Ronaldo, but in all truth Pogba just isn't at that level of a footballer. Rather than AG forcing PP to be "sacrificed", AG would actually expand the possibilities of what PP is capable of offering the club. In other words, you may not agree with it, but the exact opposite of what you argue is closer to the truth, a truth which former players like Scholes and Forlan can easily see. And, if the British media are ever to be believed, Mourinho.
No, I don't. Some players are only as good as the system they play in and some are great regardless of the system. Some players transcend systems. We lack game-changing players who can create a goal scoring chance out of nothing. Ibra was such a player but he was slowing down right before our very eyes in those last few games before the injury and now he's done. Rashford still has a way to go before he becomes such a player. At best, the jury is still out on Martial. Rooneh is done. Miki and Martial are supporting players who thrive in a certain system but cannot transcend it. Lingard is a solid squad man about whom I have no complaints. We need a game-changing player. If that's Auba over Griezmann that's great, but if we go in that direction we better be 100% confident that Martial won't turn in another turd of a season as he has this season.
This. Times a thousand this. 40-50 mill at least. We have no reason to sell him at all. He is under contract. We have a good that they want, and Ed better get some ********ing value. We coould have sold Ronaldo for twice what we did. Can't do that shit again.