Leveraged Sellout - The Arsenal Finance Thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by Rewinder, Sep 14, 2008.

  1. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This showed up in my local newspaper the other day. I am so lucky to have a writer as good as Rory Smith being the English/World Football correspondent on a daily/weekly basis.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/sports/soccer/arsenal-shares-kroenke.html

    These fans all lament the state of the club these days, with Kroenke in total control, no more AGM's, run like a corporate investment, etc, etc. None of them really want to give up their few shares, even with the imminent financial windfall. But I guess they will be forcibly disowned of their shares, even if they don't actually surrender them, as in the case of the Danish Supporters group.

    It got me wondering... is there anything comparable in American law, which would force shareholders to surrender their shares to a new majority owner, who's taking a company private?
     
  2. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Been a long time since I took corporations, but rules regarding these situations aren't usually statutory (there are always exceptions) but rather are drafted as part of the articles of incorporation or shareholder agreements.

    @nicephoras could give you a more definitive and thorough response.
     
  3. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just catching up on earlier matches, watching Cardiff-Leicester. There was a big, multi-faceted tribute and honoring of Vichai S. (I will never attempt to spell or say his name)

    The commentator said something like the other EPL clubs should do some soul-searching about their ownership and imagining whether their current owners would ever get anything close tho this kind of respect and tribute.

    That comment summed up some thoughts I started having shortly after the accident, after I heard more about how Vichai was with his club, his team, his community, etc. And how revered he was.

    I then thought about Silent Stan, and how nearly opposite he is from Vichai. OK, I guess we could do worse, e.g. Mike Ashley.

    But alas we could also do so, so much better!
     
  4. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    I get the love in for a “good man”, but I don’t really care if Stan or any owner gets that level of respect. Stan isn’t perfect, but I honestly don’t see what he’s done that’s been so bad. He didn’t seem to hamstring AW and kept him longer then most of us wanted. He and josh seem to let the people they hire run the club and are patient with them. Other than a few quid in payments to KSE, he doesn’t appear to have taken cash out of the club.

    It’s not like the previous ownership were all that great. They are the ones who got us involved in the property deals which tied up a lot of resources. They are the ones who cashed in and brought Kroenke into the picture in the first place.

    AFC also has a very involved charitable arm which I think raises a lot more than it’s LCFC counter part. In Colorado I read KSE has donated 15 million to local charities. He donated 1 million for hurricane Harvey. He is silent, but I don’t mind that. His ownership seems to be long term investment and not a play toy, speculation or ego trip.
     
  5. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a lot of legit debate you could have about whether Stan and KSE are the right owners for us, but here's a counterpoint to something you wrote...

    Vichai and his family/team made a very hands-on, very tough, and fairly controversial decision, when they fired Ranieri just 8 months after he'd done the most amazing thing in Leicester history... no, top-flight English football history.

    Many people, myself included, were shocked and somewhat dismayed on a personal level when they pulled the plug on Claudio. But after a relatively short period of time that decision proved correct for the club's standing. It righted their ship... took them back to mid-table, where they've generally been ever since, and where by economics they probably belong.

    Contrast that to KSE's stubborn loyalty to Wenger, which as you say "kept him longer than most of us wanted". Now as we have started to see a distinct turnaround with Emery, it seems pretty clear that Wenger should've left several years prior to when he did. That last renewal shouldn't have happened.

    Sure, hindsight is 20/20, and I am far far from a chop-and-change advocate when it regards to head coaches/managers, but you can see a distinct difference between how knowledgeable and connected Vichai was with his team (players and management) and how that enabled him to employ the correctly timed, insightful decision.
     
  6. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    Point taken. Not sure how I feel about Ranieri being sacked, but the owner overseeing training sessions from a high chair on the sideline is something I never want to see at arsenal unless that owner is me.

    Maybe if Stan had sacked AW earlier we could have hired Klopp and would be miles ahead in our new project, but to sack AW back then would have seriously divided the fan base and put pressure on the new manager that Emery is essentially free from right now.
     
  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    We need a people's billionaire!
     
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  8. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would be nice. I didn't follow Leicester closely but it sounds like Vichai was tat guy. Or at least very close to it.
     
  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Lol

    Are you joking?

    King power is corrupt as feck
     
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  10. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LIke I said I don't know much about them, other than what I've heard in the last week. But the convo we were having was about how an owner manages and interacts with a club. It wasn't about the source of anyone's money. That's an entirely different discussion..
     
  11. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    I haven’t been listening. What’s so great about how he operated?
     
  12. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not only did he make that difficult crucial decision about Raneiri...

    Schmeichel, Marhez and others said he was like a father to them.

    He knew and loved footy and attended many games, and as we know, often left by helicopter.

    Reportedly he would visit the dressing room not as an awkward owner but as just a regular guy without any agendas to press.

    He also connected with the fans in different ways, including giving them free food, clappers, etc.

    100's or 1000's if fans left flowers and their jerseys last week, as a shrine outside the stadium... and quite a few were from other team supporters like Liverpool, Leeds, etc.

    He gave millions of his family's wealth to local charities like a hospital.

    One can't really imagine Stan Kroenke doing these things.
     
  13. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    Stan does gjve to charity as I noted.

    Stan doesn’t hang out with the players, but I don’t see how that helps anything. Gazidis did (tried) that and now he’s fcuked off to another club.

    It’s well known as wel that in the later days of Ranieri he was meddling and casting a long shadow. I think the players sensed the impending doom and I’m sure that didn’t help results..

    LCFC rank about 7th in wages spent and haven’t finished that high since they won the title. Maybe removing Ranieri was the right thing, but I don’t think on balance they seem like an especially well run club other than one stellar season and their ability to scout good talent.

    As owners go, he sounds decent but I’m not sure I’d have traded Stan for him especially after the allegations against king power which were dismissed but still unsettling.
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I am a bit cynical about it all I have to say
     
  15. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I really don't like when people pass and we have to pretend they were great and we should all praise them. It is so weird. Especially when folks who know little to nothing about those people start using those created narratives to praise the - as we have seen in this conversation. A lot of people do not think critically and are interested in learning past short, bite-sized narratives.
     
  16. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't pretend to have followed Vichai or King Power over the years. But I do have a hard time imagining that many owners in the EPL would get the kind of reaction that has followed Vichai's death. And that absolutely includes our current owner. I'm sorry if some of you disagree with that.

    But those of you who imply that Vichai was not the good guy owner that has been largely portrayed of late, that the press and pundits are just propagating some fake news or rosy PR, why don't you share your knowledge or evidence about the man.

    The only blemish I know of is that King Power was accused (not convicted?) of bilking the Thai government out of it's 15% share of KP's revenues. Kind of of like tax evasion. That wouldn't be to big a leap of faith in the world of the ultra-rich..
     
  17. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    p.s. All I was trying to say with my original post about Vichai was how striking I found the contrast is between him and Stan. I was a little surprised, given the generally negative tenor of the previous discussions here about Kroenke/KSE, that people would push back against this comparison. I guess Stan is held in higher regard than I thought, or at least higher than Vichai? Hmm
     
  18. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    I think quite a few owners of not all would get the same public support after a tragic death like this one.

    Roman definitely would, probably joe Lewis, John Henry and sheik for sure, bill kenwright, Vincent tan maybe? Kroneke is hard to say—I think I’m too far in the bubble, but I’m sure loads of good things would be said in media. Not sure about the fan outpouring—but we haven’t won the league either.
     
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  19. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    • Roman Abramovich is the only one I'll agree with you on (and he's who I thought of when Jitty first indicated Vichai's shady sources of wealth)
    • OK Sheik Monsour too... probably would be well eulogized because he bought them titles, even with all his shady deals and human right issues in the background.
    • John Henry & Vincent Tan I really doubt it, given past hostilities w/ supporters.
    • Bill Kenwright maybe, but does he really own anything any more? And hasn't he been pretty desperate to sell the club?
    • Daniel Levy maybe, but I think we'll have to wait for the aftermath of the new stadium/financing
    • Joe Lewis... I have absolutely no clue

    But the ones that quickly jump out for me who might get more of a yawn or even a a "good riddance" are:
    • Mike Ashley
    • The Glazers
    • Sullivan/Gold
    • and yes... Stan Kroenke

    And there probably are others, especially the more corporate/conglomerate types.
     
  20. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    I’ll agree that there is not the same sentiment for the last group. I think Henry has won over most Liverpool fans—saved them from the previous bumbling fools and have them challenging for trophies again with their boot on the neck of United.

    In any case, most people (and most media) are pretty flattering and sympathetic to those that die tragically and unexpectedly. Like when politicians die in office, even their opponents usually don’t speak I’ll of them and offer sympathies and flattering remarks.
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What irks me is the way the UK media (as usual) don't bother reporting anything meaningful about these types of owners then in a situation like this, go all in with OTT soppy coverage.

    I get that local fans worship the guy, but its all so credulous.
     
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  22. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Stan is awful - yet gets a free pass.
     
  23. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    It’s wrong there as well.

    There is a difference between not speaking ill and bending over backwards to make people into saints.
     
  24. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The guy did a lot of donations to local medical facilities and raised Leicester

    Aren’t most of these big business owners corrupt? He seemed a nice dude outside of the business world
     
  25. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
     
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