Lev Yashin's Ballon D'or

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, Jun 15, 2011.

  1. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    USSR was a top-4 football nation in the 1st half of 60s (see titles, WCs games & ELO ratings).

    BTW, i think that "is not a condition" for a player, belong to (let's say) a top-4 nation or league, to be named into the greatest players in their respective era.

    It could be happen in the 90% of cases, specially in modern times, since Euro clubs had the best players all over the world. I said, since 80s (Serie-A & Spanish league reopening their market.

    But, before 80s, the difference among difference leagues was closer, because main players were playing in their own countries.
     
  2. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The USSR was competitive in that era and I see your point about the leagues being different because most players stayed home. I feel that Yashin's performances are slightly overrated and I agree with schwuppe that he can't clearly be the greatest goalkeeper of all-time.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    A part from IHFSS (with number of votes to show his "clear cut above" everyone) other sources like CNN sports, worldsoccer magazine just put his name up as #1.

    A few things to reflect why he was #1

    1- Arguably the best GK in keeping clean sheets record >30% the games (like he will keep 1 clean sheet every 3games play (wow)
    - Total: 270 clean sheets over 812 games = 33%
    - 4 clean sheets over 12 WC games = 33% (very consistent even at WC)

    2- The BEST ever Penalty saver:
    150saves over 225 penalties kicks = 66% (chance he will turn you down or a striker will need more than 2 trials, to score a pk passed him)

    3- The most courage GK who would jump in opponents' legs to get the ball!
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    1 - But there are GK with better records e.g.: Peter Schmeichel has 178 clean sheets in 398 games for Manchester United.
    2 - I call B.S as there aren't 225 PK given in 400 games.
     
  5. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    [I saw and reported on this match live in Oct. of '63 and I lived through the era as well. If any of you happen to have any questions...]
     
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Schmeichel was surely among the best (TOP5) GK all time and he happened t play for ManU a great club team (even Van der Sar looked like an ALL TIME with them). However, as rule of thumb, the more you play the worse your stats shall be as you get older and passed your best. I am not sure how many clean sheets he might have after 800games play?

    Lev played >800games. that number (170/225) was kind of "accepted" by many
     
  7. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I'd think that you were probably the person Schwuppe would most have liked to have heard from Roy.

    What was your take on why Yashin won the Ballon D'Or that year?
     
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Yashin played 326 games in Soviet league and 80 for NT according to all sources I've found. :confused:
    Where do the other 400 games come from?
     
  9. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Yes, a lot I hope you've got some time :D

    - Was this game the main reason that Yashin won the Ballon D'Or that year?
    - How was the coverage of the Soviet League? Was it even possible to get any information? If not how did it happen that Yashin was regarded as the best GK? How strong was it in your opinion?
    - When was the first year Yashin was regarded as the best in the world? And for how long did it last?
    - When did people start to rate him as the best of all time?
    - How many games of Yashin have you seen? And which?
    - What is your opinion on his international performances (World Cup)? Weren't they a bit underwheling in comparison to his reputation?
    - Why was/is he regarded as by far the best GK ever in your opinion? Aside from the clean sheet/PK saves statistics.


    I'm anticipate your response ... Thanks! :)
     
  10. Tribune

    Tribune Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Probably the friendlies. Players in that time played a lot of them. Pele is a case everyone of us knows about, but it's not the only one. Gerd Muller is listed with about 450 games in Bundesliga (and more than 700 competitive ones if you add Cup Games, European Competitions and NT games + his short time in NASL). But the total number of games is above 1200.

    And the 150 games info, James did not pull it out of thin air. Encyclopedia Britannica says Yashin saved 150 pens out of 207, although I don't know how reliable it is (his total number of games is 812).
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Like Tribune has mentioned, in case you don't know that the listed club games do not include national cup, small cups, and friendlies games, on top of international games.

    For example, Ronaldo was listed 34goals/37games with Liga in Barca, but the total was 47goals/49games for Barca in 1997. Plus friendlies and international games Ronaldo got like 67goals/71games in that year. You can see almost double the number of league games listed.

    Pele played no less than 3,4 seasons of 100+games in his best form

    Most players in EPL played even more games in average for the club ~50games a season not including friendlies and international NT games
     
  12. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    That's what I thought. Just wasn't aware that you would count friendly games towards such a record.
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Pele is the ONLY player that many accepted his "official" 1000goals including friendlies. As long as those friendly games were up to "professional" level, for example, Santos playing friendly vs Liverpool, or penarol! Not like Zidane's friends vs Ronaldo's friends in UNICEF event!
     
  14. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yashin = the greatest??:

     
    1 person likes this.
  15. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Post #39 in this thread:

    [Thanks for the kind words, Comme, and I think that I covered your question in post No.39. Just LMK if you happen to have any further questions...]
     
  16. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    schwuppe

    is that picture supposed to look like a blend of lionel messi and charlie sheen?
     
  17. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Do you have an actual internet link that proves this claim you have made?
     
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    #44 schwuppe, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
    Have to bump this to talk about Yashin.
    I noticed he usually only played like half of his club's league games.**

    WTF is up with that? Was having a GK rotation a common thing in the Soviet League? Maybe they got this idea from Ice Hockey.

    **(edit: alright this is exaggerated, I didn't take the change in schedule length into account. however he missed quite a lot of games in general)
     
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    The more I look at him, the more I struggle to understand how he can be put as the number 1 keeper of all time. Basically, it's because he won this Ballon d'Or.
     
    schwuppe repped this.
  21. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Massive russian propaganda?
     
  22. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    NT-duty, I would assume? The Russian league didn't stop for the World Cup, for example. Notice how his smallest numbers are in WC-years.
     
  23. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    It's the same as saying Cannavaro is the best defender ever. I wonder how easy was it for the Goalkeepers back then without the back pass rule
     
  24. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Alright it looks like the stats on wikipedia are pretty flawed in general and he played a lot more games. For example the Soviet league had a 2 phase system in '61 & '62, but that doesn't seem to be accounted for anywhere.

    I found this excellent site which has all Soviet games + game descriptions from newspapers.
    http://www.fc-dynamo.ru/champ/rezult.php?gd=1963
    http://www.fc-dynamo.ru/champ/

    The problem with Yashin is that he is just assumed as the default choice and nobody seems to know enough (at least in the English speaking community) about his career to set a benchmark what a GK even needs to do to suprass him.
     
  25. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Looks like you're right about that.
    http://www.fc-dynamo.ru/igry/rezult.php?gd=1962

    Would be 4 games during the WC, maybe some more due to travel + preperation.
     

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