Let the rebuild start... Summer 2018 transfer thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by chjoak, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I wasn’t being serious ffs

    But he does look pale and week

    Maybe he needs more protein lol my friends were veggies when I first met them, skinny and super pale but they started eating meat and are much healthier looking now.
     
  2. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    Nor was my initial response. I only got into the weeds when footy kid responded to me.

    Getting the right balance of protein and carbs in vegetarian diet is a little more complicated than getting the right balance in a regular diet. Reportedly Tony Gonzalez lost a lot of weight when he first converted and only regained it by getting some expert advice.
     
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  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    But really is was down to doping
     
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I'd suspect more an injury than diet
     
  5. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    this is the stupidest thing I have seen repeated by anyone.

    What does any of this mean? What is the context?

    Remember when 2nd stint Sol Campbell was the 2nd fastest player in the Premiership?

    This Sol Campbell
    [​IMG]


    These numbers mean little to nothing. And I prefer Torreira be super quick over short spaces verses running 100 meters.
     
  6. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think it's more noticeable that the difference in speed isn't huge. Auba is something like 13% faster than Torreira. Reaction time and awareness count for way more. Speed of thought >> speed of foot.
     
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  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Apparently over 32m

    I mentioned in my post that the big guys with explosive power are very quick - Sol was a monster in the day and being overweight isn't likely to slow him that much over 32m

    But this is a key quality for a CB as you do have a lot of drag races



    It isn't over 100m

    And it certainly seems unlikely Torreira is super quick over any distance
     
  8. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Having a lot of "drag races" as a CB suggests larger systemic problems.
     
  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    It's all in the margins - so those kinds of edges matter for a 9 or a CB or a winger or maybe a FB

    A defensive midfielder normally has a different optimisation - so shorter players with a lot of power in the challenge and excellent reactions and positioning.

    This was actually discussed a bit with Hummels who was fancied as a defensive midfielder, but eventually he bulked up to much - that kind of 90kg monster is not suited to midfield but it helps him when fighting 9s

    Ozil's speed was an overlooked factor in his success - he seems to have lost a step now in a straightline race, but you will still see him grab that extra half a step in midfield
     
  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Not really.

    e.g Germany played a highline where the recovery speed/positioning of Hummels/Boateng pairing was very important.

    rio ferdinand was another.

    These guys are a lot quicker than you think.
     
  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    It's also worth remembering (and this might be to do with doping) sprinters are often hitting peaks at 30+

    I suspect this is one reason Ronaldo was still so fast in his early 30s

    Of course sprint volume does go.
     
  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium


    Obviously players have different configurations - hence why the midfielders tend to be lighter / smaller (think iniesta or silva)

    KDB is now quite powerful, but still allegedly less than 70kg - quite a lot less than Ozil who was bulked up for the EPL

    So if you are 20kg lighter that is a plus in tight spaces

    Hazard is 76kg which again indicates a need for more power, top line speed and to be able to stay on the ball
     
  13. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    these numbers mean nothing. We have no idea what the context was. We just do not know.
     
  14. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I'm not following your argument. Midfield and fullback are positions where a lack of height/size isn't necessarily a disadvantage, so smaller players may end up in those positions, but the midfield has also been home to players like Viera and Toure.

    Effectiveness in tight spaces is not down to being 20 kg lighter. Even in his prime Maradona was never one of the lightest players around, but he was certainly one of the quickest (as opposed to fastest). Lateral quickness generally correlates with a lower center of gravity. Xhaka at 5'8" would be quicker than the Xhaka we have. Hazard may be 76 kg, but he's also only 5' 8" (1.73m) allowing him to change direction quickly, with close control. This is what makes him so dangerous, not his top end speed or his power.

    I generally agree with DaPrince, those numbers don't mean much. For one thing, they are almost certainly hand timed and the timers reaction time to starting and stopping a watch for a 30 meter sprint can induce a signifiant error in timing. About the only thing they tell us is the relative speed of the players.
     
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  15. KozIsCul

    KozIsCul Member+

    Feb 6, 2005
    Was goofing off on YouTube and ran across this guy.

     
  16. kanonier

    kanonier Member+

    Nov 7, 2005
    Bloomington, Ind.
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    exactly... 10 what? it's not mph, or kph...
     
  17. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meters per second.
     
  18. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    #1943 The Jitty Slitter, Aug 25, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
    Bit of a cherry pick!

    Yaya was 90kg - but the simple fact is the extra height and weight are not normally advantageous in midfield

    Matic and Pogba are at the high end (83 kg) and over 194 and 191 respectively - but hardly the norm. And Matic certainly lacks a in mobility and quickness on the ball. [/QUOTE]

    Actually it is - and extra height also comes with a weight cost and thus an energy/work cost.

    If you are Yaya and 90kg in midfield then that extra 15-20kg has to be accelerated not only with every sprint but also every change of direction. So while Yaya was quite explosive at that weight, significantly more energy is required to do the same job where a lot of the sprints are not straight line.

    It's simply harder and requires more work to rapidly change direction. So even though Yaya carries more muscle mass - there is every reason to think he will be less effective and tire more quickly in close action. The obvious exception to this is where he can use his extra weight/power in a challemge.

    So its a genuine tradeoff. But this is precisely why Hummels could not longer play in midfield.

    Agree with most of this. For instance Robben is 1.8m and a surprising 80kg. A good balance between explosive starts, high top end and close dribbling.

    But we don't see 90kg/1m90 wingers because it is a disadvantage.



    The real interest is how they compare to other teams
     
  19. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006


    Actually it is - and extra height also comes with a weight cost and thus an energy/work cost.

    If you are Yaya and 90kg in midfield then that extra 15-20kg has to be accelerated not only with every sprint but also every change of direction. So while Yaya was quite explosive at that weight, significantly more energy is required to do the same job where a lot of the sprints are not straight line.

    It's simply harder and requires more work to rapidly change direction. So even though Yaya carries more muscle mass - there is every reason to think he will be less effective and tire more quickly in close action. The obvious exception to this is where he can use his extra weight/power in a challemge.

    So its a genuine tradeoff. But this is precisely why Hummels could not longer play in midfield.



    Agree with most of this. For instance Robben is 1.8m and a surprising 80kg. A good balance between explosive starts, high top end and close dribbling.

    But we don't see 90kg/1m90 wingers because it is a disadvantage.





    The real interest is how they compare to other teams[/QUOTE]

    Our fundamental disagreement is down to physics, inertia vs leverage (with the center of gravity as the fulcrum). Looked at from another from perspective, a car with a high center of gravity, relative to its wheelbase, doesn't corner as well as one with a low center of gravity. It's why players lower their center of gravity and widen their base when stopping or changing direction. It's easier for shorter players to do this than tall players.

    In the end, your argument appears to come down to a question of endurance, the effect weight has on a players ability to repeatedly sprint on and off the ball, while I've focused on the effect a lower center of gravity has on a player's balance and ability to change direction quickly. There is some overlap in our points of view, i.e., to much upper body weight raises a players center of gravity, but very few players carry a lot of upper body weight
     
  20. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Who should we sell ozil to so we can buy a winger and a few defenders?
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I think we are just at cross purposes because when I was talking about effectiveness in tight spaces - i was talking about the central midfielders I mentioned - competing in congested areas whereas you are talking about a winger with tight dribbling skills.

    I completely agree with you about "the Hazard config".

    He's well optimised for a winger because he is combining explosive acceleration with decent pace, but lower centre of gravity.

    As far as the physics go - we agree how it works - its just I was speaking more of a player like Iniesta or KDB

    These players tend to be around the 70kg mark because they don't need a high top end, and its harder for bigger players to react to their changes of direction. And while the endurance factor is also key its also critical they must only accelerate a smaller mass through a turn and that is an advantage in terms of split second reactions over 1-2 m

    Iniesta himself described this. Rather than his 63kg being an issue, it actually meant he can jink away from bigger guys more easily - this meant they have to stay back from him to get extra 'reaction time"

    IMO his height and weight are a major cause of Pogba's defensive issues. In straight lines his high centre of gravity is an advantage. Or in the challenge. Or when steaming forwards on the ball.

    But defensively against small tricky players and tight midfield passing like David Silva / KDB he has to accelerate an extra 25% mass - but he isn't 25% more powerful in his legs to do this.
     
  22. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Jitty that is why you are supposed to clatter them ever 15-20 minutes.
     
  23. Shen-O

    Shen-O Member+

    United States
    Jul 26, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See United-Ferguson tactics vs Arsenal for about a decade
     
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  24. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Gary Neville was immune to yellow cards vs arsenal
     
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  25. bandwagongooner

    bandwagongooner Member+

    Dec 9, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a lot of value in learning to be "accidentally" violent
     

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