Legends Database

I think Ardiles can be good in that way too. Possibly Tigana too. I didn't check their ratings just now but just saw msioux's post.

Going back to Cantona, it seems he was one where although as I said I didn't want to change much, most things I was suggesting were going up not down, so he'd probably end up with a better rating. But I think that's ok, since IMO if we are talking about prime version players then if he was significantly behind Baggio and/or Bergkamp in quality and effectiveness that wouldn't necessarily be realistic, whereas considering the career as a whole it becomes more realistic for them to be placed well ahead perhaps. I completed my post a bit hastily, but I don't really see him below 19 for first touch or technique I should say. Baggio was certainly better in some ways (more fluid in movement and able to slip past players more easily, harder to stop in full flow, better with curling shots etc) but not IMO for passing/vision and maybe overall not, or at least not by a lot, in technique/flair either. Cantona's technique is particularly good regarding touch and also volleyed shots etc (as we've discussed technique covers various things so we have to go with an overall value and try to tailor the player in other ways towards what he was particularly skilful and adept at). I'd probably put Van Basten (who I didn't study yet) and Cantona about level on technique (and maybe first touch if we don't go all the way to 20 for Cantona on that to match Bergkamp which perhaps isn't necessary but he was really good in that way to be fair) - Cantona with more flair by a bit at least, but Van Basten obviously more rounded in various ways and certainly quicker too, even if creating him post bad injury.

I was thinking of moving towards older legends (I did glance at Bebeto but will leave my ideas there for now, and he seemed reasonably edited in general) to recommend possible changes and added preferred moves etc. But on that note, I think Florian Albert hasn't been created as yet? I think he should be really as he'd be a popular choice in drafts (I know poetgooner might want to restrict to some extent the numbers of similar players but I think he should definitely make it in all things considered and he was fairly unique in some ways even). I had been thinking of attempting to come up with values for Brian Laudrup, if still pressing for him as my second accepted recommendation after Robertson, but even though personally I'd not necessarily be convinced he was a 'less good' player than Albert (as hard as it can be to compare between eras - but obviously we are doing it as best we can to decide on attributes anyway), I do think Albert is historically a more significant player so I'd change my recommendation to him (I must have missed that he wasn't edited before I think).

Maybe I'll look at Dragan Dzajic next then, to move in the direction of the older players I might be able to help with (on one hand of course I saw a lot less and know a lot less of him compared to Cantona/Baggio/Bergkamp etc, but on the other hand maybe it's more useful to help with players that are less known in general in terms of style/attributes....when I feel like I do have at least a decent idea).

 

I don't think you can translate that into a value, lol, but on the supposed 'niceness' - here below is Glenn Helder speaking four days ago, who struggled with alcohol addiction (ruined his career) and doesn't mind to say unpopular things once in a while. Funny trivia: 'helder' means clarity, even soberness, lol.



As you can maybe see, his favorite ever player is Ronaldinho (and he has some proper comments on that). At the end he says: "the best player I played together with is Dennis Bergkamp." - How was that? "How that was? Not funny. You're confronted every day that you possess so many fewer qualities, hahaha." - Never gave him a big kick on the training? "Nooo....Are you mad. You can only take a bow for that type of players, and above that many will testify that he was a top person too. Many people can learn a lot from that [attitude]."

 

I think Cantona might be given a higher consistency or lower injury proneness (not entirely sure), the other two perhaps a plus for 'important matches' (no matter how famous that Newcastle goal is, there are many, many other high quality goals against a wide array of big opponents). Higher consistency brings the application of his attributes closer to the other two.

Cantona was arguably - but not by definition - the best league player, with seven league championships (in five of them as the main star). For that you need some consistency, despite his "volatility" side (as you said) too. At the same time, his national team career is underwhelming (all his 20 goals except one came against 'lower' teams) and the number of good European matches for his clubs can be counted on two fingers (or let's be more generous: five fingers). Which Roy Keane has said/mentioned too.

edit: Cantona never played in finals ofc while the other two played several for different teams, even different countries. DB10 had in 2000 the chance to become the only man to win the UEFA Cup with three different teams (and in all three editions as the main performer/producer too).

 

Yeah, fair comments. I do maintain that technique/flair/first touch and probably passing/vision (relative to Baggio) can or should go up, but consistency being rated better than big games can make sense. Maybe sometimes these perceptions can be partially coincidental, but I guess it's true that players can vary a bit (for example I would at least give M.Laudrup a higher consistency than Savicevic, but Savicevic a higher big game value.....but I just wouldn't make the differences as extreme as could be concluded based on certain games due to the circumstantial factors that can apply).

Cantona did score a goal and was in good nick technically in this game to be fair (IMO Stoichkov was not better performance wise but he did end on the winning side of course):


United didn't really play many games in 93/94 of course, so he didn't get much of a chance to make a mark that year in the CL, while he was doing so in England. Of course he could have changed that himself. In 94/95 he didn't play away in Barcelona for example of course so we didn't get to see how he'd have done in that scenario and how much difference he'd have made to cohesion and attacking threat, being normally a key part of those aspects (of course if Barcelona controlled most of the possession etc maybe his impact could be limited by that anyway, and feasibly he wouldn't make it a closer contest).

 

I suppose the other thing is that Cantona did score some 'big goals' at least in England including away at Newcastle in 95/96 and in the FA Cup Final that year too. Just as M.Laudrup did play very well against Barcelona in 1985/86 in the European Cup including getting an assist and being close to a few others (which weren't taken).

So I mean, maybe nobody should be terrible in terms of big games. And at this level of player nobody should be terrible for consistency I think anyway.

 

It has been suggested though that Cantona particularly thrived in English football, and that continental defending (especially Italian style, and with their top players) wouldn't give him the same possibilities (less space in the hole, more closely followed/marked etc). That can be a factor perhaps, not that he should be impotent against any team with tight marking (his 'in the box' ability to hold the ball up and win headers was actually ok or better for a playmaker type player, but that is already well reflected). And maybe the big games rating can even help a bit with that even though it doesn't specifically relate to it. His movement/intelligence etc was great I think, but could be limited by certain teams if he was given special attention or just subject to a tight defensive opposition. Keeping his pace and dribbling relatively low can both be realistic and help with that though probably (he wasn't a player to pick the ball up and take player after player on even though he did occasionally run with the ball, evade a couple of challenges with a swerve and score from the edge of the box - goals against QPR and Tottenham come to mind).

Dzajic's ratings definitely look pretty good to me to be fair! I'd suggest his best positions are as chosen (but I guess he should be 'ok' on the right and more centrally too, as AM or even striker), but if peaking in the 60s (with a 4-3-3 more likely played, and in his most mobile/elusive version) I'd probably rate him higher as AML than as ML. Things that could feasibly go up slightly would (in order of preference) be: free-kick taking, agility, vision, anticipation and concentration I'd feel. Plus pace (I'd go to at least 17 there I think, but maybe swapping with acceleration could be ok I don't know - I guess as a young player he didn't have too much of a delay reaching top speed even though he wasn't 'powerful' but more 'lithe' if that is the right word I think!

I might consider giving him 'knocks ball past opponent' as long as it didn't mean he'd never keep the ball close to dribble with it (he was good at both things I think). Maybe that plus 'runs with ball often' can even work? Likes to lob keeper is a possibility too I think, for sure (he also liked to lob defenders and then shoot at times!).

Player personalities Puck (maybe hard to find best combination for Bergkamp overall?!):
http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/player-personalities

 

On the consistency/big games thing, I don't see the current ratings as they are hidden but I'd be thinking for Baggio/Laudrup/Cantona/Savicevic respectively (to use examples where one can be better than the other) of a spread something like this:
Consistency: 13-16-18-12
Big games: 17-12-11-19

(That is actually as wide a gap as I'd possibly suggest myself, due to the coincidence/circumstantial/form/fitness aspects etc that can influence these things during a career - 11 might indeed seem low if anything for Cantona's big games rating but I'm not against Puck's idea in general, and making some gaps for understandable reasons can add to the draft gameplay I guess too).

Of course some players will have really good consistency and big games ratings, and some won't be particularly high for either. For Bergkamp I might tend towards the middle of the above range on both counts but don't argue against a better big games rating if that is indeed preferred. Another example is thinking about Messi/CR7 in World Cups as opposed to big Champions League games etc I guess - again the 'circumstantial' elements coming into play to make different big games pose different sorts of challenges.

 

I looked up your database (the google drive database) and there were a few players missing in it. I'm not sure if you didn't create those players at all, or if you just missed to upload them.

players that are missing at the moment, but definitely need to be in:
Dino Zoff
Luis Suarez Miramontes
Alex James
Raymond Braine
Alain Giresse

players i missed personally, but that don`t necessarily need to be included:
Pedro Petrone
Anton Schall
Gyula Zsengeller
Jozsef Takacs

Hope, this might help you

 

Yes there is also a comment on this in The Mixer book by Michael Cox and that struck me as only half of the story.

While I agree that Italian teams valued the space in front of defense more (in the mid-1990s), while English teams placed a higher value on the space in front of the forwards for example, something similar was true for French football and they were known for that. Why? Their goals per game had increased in the second half of the 1980s and this naturally triggered interest in their default tactics.

Cantona reached the peak of his fame at Manchester United, and not in France or Leeds, but he was still seen as (potentially) a top class player. In 1990 'Sport Magazine' and 'Voetbal International' made "the top 100 of world football" ('top 100 van het wereldvoetbal'). The 23/24 years old Eric Cantona, born 24 may 1966, was one of those 100.

Despite disciplinary and strong-minded issues he had a useful contribution in two French league titles, and as you say he could show his ball-playing capability in crowded penalty boxes.
Even though I think it diluted much of his quality to deposit him the penalty box of course (there were others who could do the same, but not do what Cantona did). He has one Premier League season with 10 or more non-penalty goals, but four with 10 or more assists - and typically with very few set piece assists in that. That illustrates his role and strengths well.

edit: what you sometimes have is that some players are particularly good at midday (7 league titles), and less good in the evening (european cups and national team). That's the metabolism at work.

 

For Pele's preferred moves: Not 100% sure on runs into channels (but I wonder about adding comes deep to get ball and retaining it alongside it?) or actually runs with ball often. Would consider also likes to lob keeper (as with overhead kicks this is for when the opportunity arises of course), and possibly shoots with power if it didn't stop him trying to score with finesse also. And possibly dictates tempo even (I'm thinking of his sudden dummies etc, plus the fact he'd dribble at a slow pace or quicker pace, and similar for passing), plus maybe plays one-twos.

Also even though flair is already 20, I wonder about increasing his anticipation to help with deceiving defenders (letting the ball run, playing it against their legs or over their heads etc etc) although as with Savicevic actually (even more for him maybe) I think his asset was a bit more being able to deceive the opponent or being hard to read/predict in terms of movements and ideas....rather than knowing what the opponent will do completely himself....

 

Couldn't access the write-up earlier, but this was after his year at Montpellier where he had 33 league starts and did some good things (scored 10 goals with 1 pen), although Montpellier finished 13th. He had also one of his most productive years for the national team.
For Marseille he had 22 and 16 league starts in the seasons he won the league championship there. I think "useful" is the appropriate word.

Zidane, another Marseille native, is perhaps the opposite case. Often perceived as pedestrian in the league (3 league titles in his career), especially in Italy, with lukewarm reception by the Italian football press. But he came alive in continental games and tournaments.

His best tournament matches (1998 final, 2000 Portugal, 2004 England, 2006 Spain and Brazil) were all evening matches while many of his poorest games (the 2006 group stage, 2002 against Denmark albeit injured) were earlier on the day. In 2004 all his games were in the evening.

 

I thought going back to Schiaffino & Cubillas to come up with some preferred moves (to the best of my knowledge) might be a good idea (currently Schiaffino has 1 and Cubillas 0).

Schiaffino (just to confirm, in my understanding he was predominantly right footed, although left being good enough to show 'either' seems ok to me):
Arrives late in opponents area, plays one-twos, dictates tempo, tries first time shots

Cubillas:
Runs with ball through centre, plays one-twos, curls ball

 

I had previously thought Jan Ceulemans was in the database but maybe I am mistaken. I think with his positional versatility he could be a good one to be available to draft, so I'm having a provisional go at attributes/preferred moves for him, Florian Albert and Brian Laudrup (I don't think I'm likely to suggest more players now, especially with plenty of defenders available already):

So in alphabetical order from left to right, Albert (AMC, St, plus maybe 'adequate' to 'accomplished' with AMR?), Ceulemans (AMC, AML, CM, AMR, St) and B.Laudrup (AMR, St, AMC, AML) - all right footed but not useless or exceptional with left I'd say:

Corners - 13-14-16
Crossing - 12-14-17
Dribbling - 18-16-19
Finishing - 16-17-16
First touch - 17-17-17
Free-kicks - 12-13-14
Heading - 11-16-12
Long shots - 11-15-11
Long throws - 8-12-8
Marking - 4-10-6
Passing - 17-17-16
Penalty taking - 14-16-15
Tackling - 7-13-9
Technique - 17-16-17
Aggression - 7-11-11
Anticipation - 18-17-17
Bravery - 10-14-13
Composure - 20-17-17
Concentration - 14-13-12
Decisions - 18-17-15
Determination - 11-15-13
Flair - 19-14-18
Leadership - 10-15-12
Off the ball - 14-18-17
Positioning - 8-12-8
Teamwork - 17-19-17
Vision - 18-16-16
Work Rate - 9-15-12
Acceleration - 12-13-17
Agility - 18-14-19
Balance - 17-17-17
Jumping Reach - 11-18-13
Natural fitness - 16-17-16
Pace - 17-16-18
Stamina - 15-18-13
Strength - 11-16-12

Preferred moves: Albert (Runs with ball through centre, comes deep to get ball, likes to round keeper, places shots, refrains from taking long shots), Ceulemans (Arrives late in opponents area, plays one-twos, tries first time shot), B.Laudrup (Runs with ball often, likes to round keeper, places shots, refrains from taking long shots, curls ball, tries to play way out of trouble)

Of course maybe not all the suggested moves would be selected, and some attributes might need reducing or something if the approved overall rating was lower than they suggest. But I think as a guideline those numbers and choices are ok.

 

The spaniard Luisito Suarez of the 1960s I didn't found him.

A.James, Giresse and Braine are names I've shortlisted, too.

@PDG1978 , hungarian is in the AM/FW list as Florian Albert.

 

Run (at decent pace) with the ball (glued at his feet)

 

Ah, yes he is! Well at least I gave my ideas for preferred moves, and although actually quite a bit is similar attribute-wise Poetgooner can see where I've gone different (some better rated mental attributes certainly, and lesser acceleration although I'm not fully sure I'm not misled by his easy running style and he didn't get up to speed earlier than I realise - before too long he could be easing past opposition defenders while running with the ball anyway and he could surely run quickly compared to a lot of opponents ultimately)

 

Some random recommendations/suggestions for consideration as I've been looking at the ratings further:

- I'd make Gianni Rivera at least as quick as Michel Platini and Francesco Totti I think, if not slightly above for outright pace. Maybe it looks like all 3 can come slightly down for dribbling - Rivera has the highest value but he'd be the one I'd hesitate on the most. I'd suggest Totti 2+ points down, Platini 1-2 points, and Rivera maybe a point. I know the aforementioned speed is a separate issue to dribbling technically, but still I feel considering their slickness when running with the ball in terms of moving past players deceptively while manipulating the ball etc that Totti/Platini might be a touch high.

- I think Alessandro Del Piero might come down at least a point for both passing and dribbling. Maybe compensated by increasing finishing. I'm a bit torn on long shots for him, as it's not completely clear I think whether shots just outside the box are covered by that, or whether too high a value for that would have him great at shooting from 35 yards for example (he has places shots and is not big or strong though, so maybe the game wouldn't have him sizzling shots into the net from far afield if that went up slightly too - his shooting expertise and accuracy might be best covered by finishing though and increasing that aligned to his excellent technique might also help with technical shots like first time volleys, while if he doesn't have the attributes or style or position of a goal poacher maybe he'd not become too prolific. I just think compared to some other players he wasn't especially renowned as a dribbler or a passer overall.

- On a similar note, having mentioned Baggio before in relation to Cantona, I wonder about at least nudging Baggio down to 17s for passing and vision (or although vision can help with shots etc too, maybe leaving passing at 17/18 and putting vision down to 16 even). Dalglish is another I'd not see as lower than Baggio in this area even if I would understand his overall rating will probably end up lower.

- Moving on to those I see as better passers than rated currently. Stojkovic for sure I'd move up at least 2 points there. I'd rate his passing over his dribbling, although if a relatively young version is created maybe his dribbling can stay at at least 17. And Glenn Hoddle for me should go up on passing (certainly - could be 20 but don't try to insist on it and 19 would be reasonable surely too) and technique, and feasibly slightly for vision and maybe even long shots too. I think these sorts of players specialised in passing and creativity so although Baggio should end up with a higher overall rating for example, I think they should be above in these areas.

- Rummenigge I noticed should probably go up a couple of points at least on pace and also/especially acceleration, as in his prime and a non-injured state he was a very speedy player.

- I'd not be against bringing one or more of Hagi's higher values down by a point, but I think long shots should probably go up a bit for him. He's been given the preferred move to shoot from long range of course, but to me 16 looks low for his long shots value itself.

- For Hidegkuti I believe pace could go up to about 16 (I'd say below Albert probably but close to him, with perhaps acceleration nudging up too; I read he could run 100m in just over 11 seconds IIRC although the wingers in the golden team could do it about a second quicker still, and I've noticed that although his style is considered and relaxed in general that when he did sprint he could be pretty quick certainly). Other things could nudge up if anything too still I think as they might seem 'minimum feasible' values at the moment - passing, vision, off the ball, finishing, technique, balance, first touch (all those can be options to go up I would say; for compensating reductions I don't know possibly crossing or work rate for example).

- For Savicevic, I think pace can be just as high or higher than acceleration probably, but things to definitely go up would be first touch and composure plus passing and vision (wouldn't be against the opposite to what I said for Baggio maybe - 16 for passing and 18 for vision). Maybe teamwork up could be compensated by work rate down even, but overall obviously I seem to be suggesting an upgrade (like with Cantona but a bit moreso I guess, with similar reasoning that the peak version compares better than the career overall). I would have said it'd be an option to take dribbling down by 1 but when Baggio is up there for that I'm not sure, and maybe I'd suggest meeting in the middle with flair going up to 19 anyway, plus again considering what I said about Pele and him anticipation can go up a few potentially I think. At the moment he seems too much specialised to dribbling anyway I feel, under-rating his overall class.

 

I would take 'Static target man' off Van Basten (plus increase his acceleration, pace and agility all by a few - perhaps related changes!), and increase Liedholm's agility a bit (no problem that it's a few below dribbling though probably).

Without looking in detail at Law yet, I'd also take 'Static target man' off him for sure. I was checking his profile to see if 'Tries overhead kicks' was there but as with Batistuta I'm not truly sure it should be but maybe it's a possibility to consider or investigate. Maybe neither did it enough or excelled enough at it. Without looking in detail at them also I do believe Silvio Piola can have that added and Jean-Pierre Papin I'd suggest could too (and shoots with power would actually be more appropriate than places shots for him I'm pretty convinced, although maybe just removing places shots would be ok). Jurgen Klinsmann can also have it I think (overhead attempts) but I do see the main obvious candidates already have it as far as I can think (Sanchez/Pele/Van Basten/Leonidas....). Maybe not all Cristiano Ronaldo's traits show on the profile screenshot but I guess he doesn't have it based on the Juventus goal lol, but Rummenigge I think could have it added too to be fair.

I'm trying not to be too petty with marginal suggestions etc, but am also trying to get through looking at quite a lot as there will be a time limit even though for some reason there aren't many sign-ups as yet. Perhaps more people can be tagged, even if they haven't done drafts before - maybe annoyedbyneedoflogin, wm442443 and Peterhrt for examples, and Puck did suggest at the time of the 'B' Draft he might do a draft so I already asked him by PM but I don't think he's decided to definitely take part in this as yet anyway (my suggestions for Van Basten are not designed to persuade you Puck lol, but genuine ideas for merited increases of course, like I say without seeming too petty by mentioning where I might feasibly just increase another value by 1 in my own view or something for example).

 

It gets harder with older players to an extent of course, but my idea/understanding for Kopa would be that AMC was his best role and maybe striker can be added (so that he can play SS, not main striker, as discussed before).

Probably AMR better than MR too I think for him, given his style and also the attacking nature of formations still back then. It looks a nice attempt at his profile anyway, although I assume (but hard to be properly sure like I say) that his passing was better than his crossing too (maybe one up and one down would suit ok even?). Maybe as a related change making it 'runs with ball often' would work too, as opposed to prioritising down the right, but whether he dribbled to enough of an extent to get that preferred move might be worth considering (maybe he did though - footage I've seen might be inconclusive as I know these preferred moves are for things they really prioritised).

 

Another thought on Savicevic along similar lines lol - maybe generally 'cuts inside' is better than specifying from the left, although sometimes he did stay wider and get crosses in after dribbling (also using his right foot if playing on the right or moving out there) so I don't know 100% he should have it at all and maybe poetgooner can decide. His right foot isn't bad at all and AMR is at least as good an option as AML (although he'd certainly cut in from the right onto his better left side too), but not as good as AMC and maybe Striker (again to play the support forward role).

I'll try not to post more about him now lol, but maybe helping with modern-ish players I know very well is just as useful as trying to help with the older legends....

 

I'd say that Totti is all around a bit overrated. I'd suggest a small downgrade in dribbling, finishing and first touch at least. I also think that his mental attributes determination and flair could be slightly downgraded.

 

I think dribbling for sure and determination (currently a 20) too yeah. First touch can come down, considering the hierarchy among all these players, as it is also currently 20 (it's feasible to think some others were at least even more subtle/skilled with them, and/or more consistent and effortless I'd think). Finishing and flair I'm not sure myself, but don't mean to object necessarily (not just out of politeness, but I mean I can probably see where you are coming from especially flair as an overall description, but with his penchant for back-heels and flicks etc maybe just bringing dribbling down even by slightly more than 2 points is enough?).

I suppose it's the comparison between all the similar players that matters, as in general these 'best ever' players will score very high in a lot of categories. Maybe seeing how Totti and Dalglish compare would be help for example, in making sure each was rated a bit higher in appropriate attribiutes.

It could be that poetgooner's mates are particularly knowledgeable about relatively recent players, and admire them due to experience watching them of course, so then a player like Totti (who I do rate highly myself to be fair, but even moreso Platini and if anything I'm also tending to think reduce things if anything rather than increase anything for him too - I guess really scoring a player like him at the maximum for his great qualities will ensure an appropriately high overall rating though given comparable lack of pace to most other top tier legends) might appear slightly over-rated compared to some older players....