Made some updates! Reckon we can start registration for the draft @PDG1978 ? I've also added the GK profiles. They're default from the downloaded database we use, so I reckon it's even more effed up than elsewhere!
Yes, I'd say so. Probably it'd be a good idea to let all drafters have a short period to study the database and recommend changes in general (without particularly having an idea who they'll be drafting)? If you wanted me to make all my suggestions before kicking things off I could do that if you wanted though (not that I want to make the profiles too influenced by myself, but so far I only really tried to recommend what I saw as obvious changes....mainly for under-rated attributes and perhaps for what seemed definite over-rated ones too occasionally). Happy for you to run things for the draft, but equally I don't mind helping out if you wanted, or even starting threads etc. If you wanted to consult about anything like that you could PM me if you like. I had a quick look at full-backs and see some changes indeed. The Carlos Alberto profile looks pretty accurate and reasonable to me in general, but msioux might take a look at it and see what he thinks for example. I'd actually suggest his pace/acceleration can go down at least a couple of points, and while there might be arguments to still increase the odd well-rated attribute, I'd say it could actually be his lowest rated ones that could go up as more of a priority. Especially penalty taking should go up quite a lot as he was a regular taker I know. Likewise, Jorginho (I see the increased crossing attribute which IMO was needed for realism so thanks/well done on that editing work!) can go down a bit on pace/acceleration and it wouldn't be unrealistic to nudge some other things up a bit to offset that I don't think - perhaps tackling and concentration for example I think. Leandro might also go slightly down on pace/acceleration I tend to think lol, but I see indeed the big increase in composure.
I think we can allow suggestions up to the point where the actual drafting begins. Lets say it takes 2 weeks to find 16 participants, that 2 weeks window can be used to suggest new changes. We can give it 24 hours after the last participant signup, so that the last person to join can still have 24 hours to study the database. 24 hours after the last participant signs up, the database is locked, and the drafting begins.
Nice work - you have generally speaking got his best attributes picked out correctly I think. Some recommendations to go up a few points (or at least a couple; I'm not including the very well-rated ones as they're just about high enough even for a biased Forest fan I guess lol, although statistically penalty taking might have a case as he missed very very few from a lot of attempts....but 17 is very good anyway): Finishing, free-kick taking, decisions These can potentially go down a few or slightly (like I say other than the 3 above, some already well-rated things could still nudge up a point no problem if desired while bringing these ones down to offset): Leadership, work rate, natural fitness, pace, stamina In his case acceleration (shouldn't go higher though at least IMO) being a few above pace can work well, as it wasn't the only reason he could do it, and less so than his mesmerising and unpredictable way when in possession (and two-sidedness which at least made his end goal unpredictable too), plus dribbling/agility/touch (which are nicely rated already) but giving him a good acceleration value would help with him getting a yard or two of space in which to put crosses in which he was noted for and very good at.
Unless natural fitness is related to injuries rather than athleticism (sorry should check before posting really!) in which case no need to reduce (he missed very few games actually). But you've said previously it won't affect the games for the draft anyway particularly I remember, and I shouldn't think it's too influential to the overall ratings either anyway.
I have some doubts here, too. I'd give the better ratings here to players who played very good even being older (eg. Matthews, N.Santos, Maldini) or those who can dominant a game, without training or even after getting drunk the day before (eg. JM.Moreno, Best?). I see a lot of players with 19-20 in Natural Fitness, I guess, this attribute isn't too influential in the overall rating.
It doesn't. And in the context of online plays, it makes ZERO difference as it is the ability to recover between games (someone like Lampard is a classic case of 20 natural fitness), but in online games, everyone's brought back to full fitness anyway.
Thinking about Robertson again, I also started to think that in general it might be useful if people could at least recommend preferred moves or give you info about them, even if you make the final calls (having a good understanding of how they work in the game). Robertson for example would have 'places shots'. I remember before there was some conflict about players cutting inside and hugging the touchline though, and I'd indeed be a bit torn if he can't have both as preferred moves lol (which in a way makes sense if he can't....but then he did like to do both - I'd say in his case I'd probably recommend the hugging the touchline one but give him an increased finishing rating as well as places shots, as it's not like he was prolific if taking out penalties). Some video references are the goal below, and the free-kicks for Scotland in the next videos too (final goal in Belgium game, and 4th Scotland goal at 14 minutes in the New Zealand World Cup game on the Dailymotion video): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ejx68
Yes please! It is something I think we're severely lacking, especially for older players. The two is not contradictory. Hugs Line is an off the ball PPM, which just means the players will position themselves very wide. Cuts Inside is a dribbling PPM, where the players will look to cut inside with the ball. I think Hugs Line can work, if that's how he likes to position himself, but I don't think we should do Cuts Inside as that means he will do far less of driving towards the byline to put in a cross.
This might very well be true, and has logical base, but I think there are some things to think about: 1) Coutinho at Liverpool was evidently more of a highlight reel passer than, say, Ozil at Arsenal. Does that make Coutinho better per se? (most would say he wasn't) More of a wins and results influencer? 2) Maradona has over ten times as many full-matches prominently preserved, which then narrows itself down to a few gems. This has a few underlying reasons and causes. 3) I think both did not show their best passing at the World Cup, in particular Cruijff. 4) Take a look at JC14 his passes while at Feyenoord in 1983-84, including against some genuine top sides. Passes that had pace, angle and precision.
Maybe it'd be a good idea to show a couple of screenshots (possibly for players for which your idea is fairly settled on preferred moves already, although it doesn't matter I guess) with the available preferred moves shown on the sign-up thread, for people to view, with also a link to the preferred move descriptions if there is one? I think indeed since that is a facet of the FM gameplay now that we should get them as realistic as possible, to make the draft gameplay as good as possible (while incorporating specific managerial instructions as tactics which I think you can do too IIRC). Even though in the old days of course there were no tick boxes for preferred moves and it was still a great game (Championship Manager days for example).
Yes, there is a link in post 1 isn't there actually already sorry! http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/player-preferred-moves
Nice work kicking off the sign-up thread poetgooner! I'm thinking for now that I might put recommendations for preferred moves etc on this thread still. Plus other suggestions for increasing/decreasing attributes as I look through more profiles. Not that it affects gameplay but for effect I guess maybe Baggio and Robertson can have their weights swapped round (or at least Robbo>Baggio I think!). Personally in both their cases I'd say the ability to play on the other side to a good enough level can be recognised. Robertson being able to play well on the right wing, but not with the same rating as for the left certainly (arguably he can be just as good as left side AM as he is as left side midfielder though I think, and maybe I'd suggest better as right side AM than as right side midfielder). But Baggio who has AM(R), though not to the same extent as the central roles, could arguably be at least as good from the left I'd suggest (especially given his right footed ability when cutting inside). Baggio's profile looks good attribute wise in general, which isn't surprising I think given you and your mates will know him decently well and we also discussed him (leadleader being involved too I remember) when you were doing the previous trial using modern players. Perhaps I'd consider narrowing the gap between dribbling and agility from both sides, but I don't say it's absolutely necessary and I know a 20 doesn't automatically make him the most effective dribbler on the game overall given physical qualities affect dribbling just as in the real game. I know he will be a very well rated player and will need the stand out attributes too. Maybe finishing can go up by a point, thinking of elite attributes, as with accuracy being the main factor for that value I think that can be realistic. Maybe decisions can go slightly down, and/or maybe just the hidden consistency value shouldn't be mega-high (obviously I can't see it currently). I would say aggression seems too high though, even if it might not even affect the overall rating but be almost equivalent to preferred moves in determining approach rather than quality (in which case the 20 value wouldn't give Pearce a bonus towards overall rating either I suppose). Obviously I can see player traits equate to selections for preferred moves, so we can see those on the profile (unless loads are selected maybe) and Baggio's make sense to me in each case for sure. Others I'd consider would be cuts inside, possibly comes deep to get ball although I have doubts, feasibly plays one-twos, feasibly likes to lob keeper, definitely likes to round keeper, definitely curls ball. Maybe see what you think of those, concerning a well-known player and then I can have a go at some others?
The low teamwork attribute might help with what I was saying re: decisions/consistency, although as Baggio was a class player in general I probably do query whether that value should go up somewhat to be fair (while recognising keeping it relatively low might help in terms of sorts of decisions made and having a gap to Bergkamp can be realistic in terms of differentiating between their styles/qualities). Talking of Bergkamp, again I completely agree with the currently selected traits (although for arguments sake I'll question whether tries killer balls often would be too detrimental to his short passing game....and instead just the passing/vision abilities being high will ensure his killer balls can be great when he plays them?). I'd also consider cuts inside, plays one-twos, dictates tempo (especially reading the description of this), definitely likes to lob keeper, and probably curls ball again too (unless places shots is enough for his top corner efforts - others might have a view here). For me Bergkamp's finishing, flair and passing (as good as that is already) can even go up a bit still. Maybe dribbling and balance could be nudged down one for example, if suggestions on that were needed to compensate for potential increases, but I'd also say reducing his aggression at least a bit might seem best to me. His pace/acceleration makes sense assuming his Arsenal version is being made (would be higher at Ajax I'm sure).
There is no positional differentiation between the AMRC (Attacking midfielder right-centre) and AMLC (attacking midfielder left-centre). Both are considered AMC positions, so someone like Baggio will be 'natural' at both. However, preferred foot plays a major role in the FM engine, just like in real life. So if he plays as the AMRC, he will cuts inside onto his left foot more often, while if he plays on the left, he will dribbles wide more often. This is especially true because he's not the most two-footed player either.
Nice info, and makes sense (and indeed he should be good in those sorts of roles potentially I think, although he was better with his right foot just to clarify in case you understood otherwise or thought I suggested it). My previous post was meant to refer to the wider positions though (AML and AMR) and my suggestion was maybe Baggio could at least be equally good from wide left as wide right, but it's not a big issue I feel anyway (making Robertson at least decently good on the right, at least in the AMR position, seems to me more required actually than the Baggio thing when Baggio already has a dot wide left too anyway suggesting his value isn't too bad there I think already).
Ahh right. For some reason, I always think of BAggio as a leftie lol. Yes, I can make him an 'accomplished' player at AMR. Perhaps aounr 15/20.
High Teamwork for Bergkamp will simply means he can fit in more nicely in an organized system. A lot teamwork player simply means a player who will do what he thinks is best, rather than follow his instructions. This is okay for highly intelligent players with high mental attributes like 'decisions' 'vision' 'anticipation' and 'composure'. In fact, if they must carry the playmaking weight of the team, having low teamwork, and given high creative freedom, makes them more unpredictable and harder to handle. However, if you play a very team-based approach with a lot of passing and movement and there's no real designated playmaker, a player with low teamwork could disrupt the team's flow. I'll consider it. Tries killer balls shouldn't disrupt his buildup play too much as he has high decision attribute so he'll know what to do. It's just there so he takes more risk in the final third. I don't actually remember if he took a lot of risky passes in the final third, but that's just the narrative. I don't think he needs cuts inside. It's only applicable to wide players. Plays one-two is for the guy that passes and moves, not the guy who returns the pass. I think it fits better for combination players like Pires or Cole, as Bergkamp was more of the pivot. Dictates tempo is an interesting one. It is mostly used for players in midfield area. I think we can add it for him, as he's been given the 'AM' position, plus he has 'Comes deep to get ball' so when he does drop deep, he can do that. You're right, lob keeper should definitely be added. Curls ball is quite tricky as its not just shooting, but also passing. Definitely another one for consideration for sure. I wanted him at 19 vision and passing personally, but got downvoted lol. I think he has a case for it, I agree. The Bergkamp we tried to create though is the late 90s version. I don't remember if he was a 19 passing/vision back then yet, compared to the 2000s version. If we went with 2000s version, I'd probably give him 10/11 acceleration/pace. I didn't want to give him too high a finishing, as he was never a consistent 30+ goals forward, although that had a lot to do with his style. I'll see if his overall attribute is still in line. If there's space left, I might give it a plus 1. The reason he has a aggression attribute is because I remember him being quite aggressive but clumsy in defense. He was not a very nice person defensively, if we're being honest. Not a clean tackler and quite often fouled opponent's defender.
Ah, ok, if you like I can make sure I mention the best foot when I see they have 'either' specified like in this case (for me his left foot being good enough so that either is shown is definitely ok though anyway and he was comfortable enough moving onto it when dribbling I think even if he did tend to use his right to play the ball when feasible including when dribbling). Accomplished on both sides seems ok to me personally yeah (but I might not even argue with going a bit higher on the AML rating, but certainly he was best in a central/roving role and did normally play in one, although in a 3 man attack at Bologna I think for example, and also at Juve quite a bit albeit sometimes from behind the other two and not lined up hugging the touchline anyway).
Thanks! I knew you knew him pretty well obviously (but while not an Arsenal fan I guess my advantage is being a bit older and/or seeing the Premier League from an earlier time.....but while the descriptions link helps me I know your inherent understanding of how the attributes work is still a bit better). Yes, I think I read one sentence about teamwork with a potentially negative slant for a low value but what you say makes sense in terms of decisions etc off-setting that. In a way it's a slight dilemma deciding on Bergkamp's value then as his creative abilities need to shine through but increasing flair and maybe even anticipation might help (flair in itself might pose another dilemma though as I'd be thinking max the creativity but not necessarily the extravagance - maybe 18 for him is ok though?). My feeling is late 90s version can definitely have 19 for passing. If anything maybe his striker rating should match his AM one, if that is best to allow second striker placements etc though. My view would be that as he went into the 00s his role changed a bit but not his abilities technically/creatively really. I see what you say re: aggression (compared to Baggio certainly, who was also more lightweight). Although I think maybe the danger would be over-playing that aspect of his competitiveness and deeming him a bit dirtier than he generally was. I'd say he was 'nice' and 'fair' enough but just wasn't alien to putting his boot in and also 'looking after himself'. I remember when he did stamp down on a Yugsoslav's belly (maybe even Mihajlovic - so maybe Bergkamp's bravery goes higher lol - that's a joke to be fair not a real suggestion) in World Cup 1998 that he was almost pulling out and eventually the pressure he stamped with wasn't very much at all! I don't think he was generally charging round into challenges though, and his normal thought was to take a subtle touch of the ball if he could do so, not take a hack when there was a 50/50 ball say.
He did have a reputation if we're honest, although I see what you're saying - just like Baggio had a reputation to clash with managers and not gel in whenever he was at a big team (Fiorentina, Juventus, Milan, Inter). What one might play with, and this also applies to Ronaldinho, Best (even Maradona) is consistency type of things. The fitness as well. This was sometimes questioned (his consistency, his robustness to injuries) although the defendants would say he was overall more consistent/lasting than most forwards of his generation. Interestingly, the OPTA stats shows Bergkamp to be an OK tackler, certainly for an AM/SS. 1998-99: 1.58 tackles completed per 90 minutes (42% success) 1999-00: 1.05 per 90 minutes (73% success, best of his team) 2000-01: 1.33 per 90 (88% success, best of his team) 2001-02: 1.47 per 90 (66% success) Unfortunately this is where the data stops. He wouldn't be the 'best ever' or so in this, but I'd bet he scores better than most other magical forwards (of his generation, or overlapping generations). Zola does well here in some seasons too, also he adapted. edit: maybe this is a leftover of playing as defender/right-back for a while in his youth teams and reserve teams.
Yeah, the aggression thing comes into play for Cantona too (also given a 16 atm). Again it's not that his basic approach was aggressive I think (and again getting control of the ball was normally priority whenever it was near by), but in his case he was even more volatile I suppose. He has 'argues with officials' as a preferred move too I see haha, which I suppose is ok (whereas I don't think Bergkamp would have this indeed). I'd say Cantona can go down on pace a bit, but although it's a marginal change I think increasing his passing and vision can be a good call (for those aspects I wouldn't rate him below Baggio myself certainly). I also think flair up by more than one actually for him, and maybe anticipation can rise too. Agility also but maybe dribbling coming down the other way. He was probably more adept at ball juggling etc than conventional dribbling so maybe poetgooner has ideas about how to show that! Overall, I'm not suggesting big changes for Cantona though, but am just mentioning things as I see the profiles. Maybe for him I'd consider arrives late in opponents box, plays one-twos (even taking into account not giving it to Bergkamp although I'm unsure re: Cantona anyway) and perhaps tries killer balls often for him too (encouraging creative and unpredictable passing).
How do you define "clarividencia", in which Bozsik, N.Santos and Di Stefano were exceptionals, the way they seem to know what is gonna happened, before it happens.