Got some questions regarding the language in Belgium or since we are footballer supporters, putting questions in terms of Belgian soccer players. With French and Dutch both being official language... how would these situations work? 1) national team coach is from Wallonia, then does he instruct/ coach only in French and expect the players from Flanders to understand him in French (or vice versa, Dutch speaking national coach.....)? Has there ever been big incidence where the coach could not get his message to specific players b/c of the language difference? 2) if a player comes from a foreign country and speaks neither of the two languages, and transferred to Anderlecht, with Brussels having both languages as official, which language will he have to learn? 3) a Club Brugge player and a visiting player from let's say Liege or Charleroi, or FCB supporters and visiting Charleroi supporters, what language will they have conversation in (or shout insults in)? 4) are there still hostile feeling if a player from Flanders plays for a team in Wallonia (or vice versa)? 5) which is greater - % of players from Flanders who also fluently speaks French or % of players from Wallonia who also fluently speaks Dutch or % of players from either region who speaks fluent English Thanks.
1. I don't believe there have been real incidences about the language. Fact is the Walloon press are harder for the Flemish players and vice versa. I believe all coaches were able to speak AND Flemish AND French. 2. Anderlecht although officially undecisive and with supporters in both parts of the country seems more of a French-speaking club to foreigners. I don't know any foreigners that played for Anderlecht (perhaps in the eighties) who tried to learn Dutch, which is not so hard to understand as French has a wider impact worldwide. 3. Probably French. Most Flemish people are able to speak French. The other way around is less obvious. 4. Not as far as I know. The great Standard-team from the beginning of the eighties had Flemish players as its strongholders. Gerets, Meeuws, Vandereycken were the guys who were the leaders of that team. Standard also has a large supporter-base in Flemish-speaking Limburg. 5. I don't think anyone has investigated how it works for players, but in general it's like this: in Flanders you get French from the fifth year in elementary school and English from the second year of highschool. In the Walloons they also educate foreign languages (don't know when it starts though) but they get to choose between English and Dutch. The Flemish people have to learn both, the Walloons have free choice. If you want a job in Brussels however, you have to be able to speak both languages equally fluent. Why your interest?
I know for a fact that the last sentence of your post is only in theory I'm affraid. A lot of French speaking Belgians who have a job in Brussels don't know a word of Dutch.
Thanks for very informative replies. general interest in linguistics. but also interest in Belgium and Belgian football. having visited there twice (it is one of my favorite places) and also lucky enough to attend two matches FCB-Anderlecht in Brugge and Anderlecht-Charleroi in Brussels. thanks for the very informative answers
I think it's more the fans of Flemish clubs being harsh on Walloon clubs. I feel truely ashamed when fellow Ostend fans call "Les Wallons sont des couchons" (this means "The Walloons are pigs" and then even they don't sing it properly as it should be "cochon") Seems a few rumours about games between Walloon clubs being sold in order to help each other survive in the top flight stirred up hatred from Flemish fans towards the Walloon clubs. I refuse to play this game myself as there have never been any concrete proofs of games being sold recently. Also, just adding: Flemish is not an existing language, it's a dialect of Dutch (compare it to American English and British English). Belgium has three official languages: Dutch (approx 55% of the country), French (approx 44% of the country) and German (approx 1% of the country).
Dunno, all I know is some people are frustrated 'cause they have to be able to speak Dutch. But, true, in Brussels bilinguality is often neglected.
I have been on vacation to Wallonia a few times and I noticed a lot of people there actually do speak Dutch quite well, they just do not want to speak it.
Lot of Flemish people refuse to speak French when they're in Brussels because they have the opinion that they should be served in their own language in their capital. My opinion is that this is a bit 'unwise' behaviour, you can simply not ignore the fact that French is globally a more important language (economically seen for sure), so I don't think it's unnormal that the Walloons are less likely to learn Dutch than the Flemish are likely to want to learn French. Also, note that Brussels is a multicultural city and that there are tens thousands of immigrants. There are many people from the Maghreb countries (Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, ...) and from meditarranean countries (Spain, Portugal, Greece, ...). For them it is also logical that they use French in daily life ; the Maghreb countries used to be colonies of France or related closely to France (and thus French is second language after Arabian), whereas the people from Roman-language countries have it easier to improve their French than to learn Dutch. Football-wise, if you check the address book of www.footbel.com you can see the premier language of correspondence of every club. In Brussels, there are over 30 clubs (going from top divisionists Anderlecht and FC Brussels to the clubs at the very lowest level) and of those +30 clubs only 3 or 4 have Dutch as prefered language.
It's all about rights. Brussels is suppose to be a bilingual area. It's wrong to assume that every Flemish person knows enough French to get by. At least all hospitals and all levels and branches of government should have strictly bilingual staff.
I have friends in the Flemish section of Belgium and they tell me that they would rather speak English as a second language than French. I have just come back from Canada, and being in Quebec, where they have no signs in English and won't speak it unless they have to, but Ottawa, the capital has both languages, and even a little further out heading towards Toronto. It's the same in Cardiff, Wales and in the north there. It's all the "politically correctness" running through the world now, that in my opinion makes it worse. The same in Spain with Catalan v. Castellian in some regions.
Your first remark is incorrect. There is no choice when it comes to learning French or English. Everyone in Flanders gets French from the fifth grade up and English from 8th grade up.
What part of my first remark is incorrect? That I don't have friends in Belgium, or that they would rather speak English than French?
It's not incorrect, it just says your friends are ignorant. The difference between English and French as a second language is very small, so I don't see why they would want to change that. We Flemish may be lucky to speak so many languages well.
Hello you must know that we have 3 official languages in Belgium: French, Dutch and German... 1) normally, players speak French and Dutch, not perfectly but they can understand the most important words of the two languages... 2) in a club as Anderlecht every player speaks english, so it is no problem for the foreigners... we have players from Belgium, France, Sweden, Germany/Tunisia, Serbia & Montenegro, Albania, Ivory Coast, Russia, Turkey, Finland,... in Anderlecht and we have success with this "international" team I think that the foreigners learn the language of the part they are living: if they are living in a french-speaking part of Brussels, they will learn french; if they are living in a dutch-speaking part of Brussels, they will learn dutch. But normaly everyone in Brussels understands English I think... 3) I think that the supporters of Standard de Liège or Charleroi will support their teams in French (sometimes in English ("you'll never walk alone",...)) and the Brugge fans in Dutch... In Anderlecht there is a problem: We have many french speaking fans and many dutch speaking fans. So we support our team in English... Players will have conversation in English I suppose. We have many foreign players in Belgium, so I think that a player of Ivory Coast will speak in English to a Russian player... 4) Sometimes there is a hostile feeling, but normaly it doesn't exist... The problem is the dutch speaking press. They are always moaning against french speaking players (van Buyten, Emile Mpenza,...). 5) I think there are more "vlamingen" who speak french than "wallons" who can speak dutch. The people in Wallonie are more lazy and not so interested in foreign languages as "de vlamingen" ( I also come from Wallonie . It's a question of mentality... sorry that my english is not so good but I hope you can understand me
Thanks for the info! That's really great for people to be so comfortable in communicating in many different languages. I mean, two Belgian players can comfortably communicate three languages w/each other on the field. Here, in the US sometimes, we got problem people communicating in one language!
It is a great thing, but it also has its downsides, to be precise the fact that certain language speakers feel underappreciated. This has shifted throughout history and also has a lot to do with the economics of that period in time. Another strange fact is that the players of GBA learned Portuguese last year because they had an inflow of Brazilian players. Some even speak it fluently now.
The reality is that french is spoken far more in Brussels and knowing some french is (almost) a necessity if you live there. Historically though, Brussels is a flemish city (it's fully surrounded by flanders as well). The true old "brusselnaren" speak a dialect of dutch amongst themselves. Ironically, it was the dutch nobility that introduced the french language into Brussels and french has become the dominant language since.
Brussels is a corruption of "broeksele" which means 'place by the pool' (we talk about a sort of muddy pool, not a pond ) So historically it is Dutch speaking. Nowadays it is a multicultural city where French is dominant indeed. Also, some Flemish towns near Brussels but outside of Brussels-Capital-District have special laws for the French speakers in the towns so that they can do their government paperworks in French.
Interesting discussion. My son just returned from Genk, Belgium and we were amazed at his fluency in Dutch after just one year there. He is less comfortable with French (but speaks it nonetheless) and absolutely disliked learning German. At first we were concerned that he would not learn the languages as efficiently because there were so many in his support system that spoke English to him at first. But after our request to please refrain from speaking English to him, he started dreaming in Dutch after only a couple of months. Now it is a matter of which language to continue to pursue. French or German or Spanish (which is a more practical language for us here in California). Dutch will always be his first 2nd language. He has vowed to continue correspondence and long distance discussions with his friends, old teammates, coach, and adopted family in Belgium. We are just amazed at how easily young people learn. And we absolutely love hearing him speak and write Dutch.
Nice to see that people have interest in my native language, it's not a really important language internationally so it surprises me a bit to read this, but I'm surprised in a very positive way. If I'd have to advise your son, I'd go for Spanish or French as next language to tackle, as both are widely spoken worldwide.