News: Klinsmann - "I'm not playing anyone out of position"

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by appoo, Mar 28, 2016.

  1. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That does not imply that Klinsmann asked Bradley to "be the creative focal for our attack" any more than it implies that Klinsmann wants Bradley to be a striker. It simply says that he wants Bradley upfield from the #6 position into more of a box-to-box role. The key words are "maybe".

    Do you honestly feel that Klinsmann playing Bradley as part of a double pivot CM in a 4-4-2 is playing Bradley out of position?
     
  2. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is some classic THHF spinning. Never change...
     
  3. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    'Maybe' you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

    I don't think you quite understand how the word 'maybe' is being used. Or perhaps you do, and instead are twisting it to fit your narrative.
     
  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, I'm not wrong about this.

    I expect the man who recently was honest enough to say "Feilhaber is not the answer", to be honest.

    Do you believe that Klinsmann asked Bradley to "be the creative focal for our attack"? Do you believe that Klinsmann playing Bradley as a CM in a flat 4-4-2 is playing Bradley out of position?
     
  5. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    OK, but that has nothing to do with your intellectual dishonesty.

    Unequivocally, yes.

    Unequivocally, no.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Agree mostly with THHF at least w/re to the JK's comments. Bradley is not being asked to control the game. The key is the surrounding talent. More creativity in the team means less of a burden on MB in that aspect.
     
    Footsatt repped this.
  7. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would be a first here...
     
  8. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He holds others to higher standards than he does himself...
     
  9. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If personally attacking a stranger on a forum makes you feel better about yourself I am happy to be of service.

    I am content to believe that you and I just have a difference of opinion on what Klinsmann has asked MB90 to do. At least we agree that Feilhaber is not the answer!
     
  10. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    I know he is not the answer, but for JK to completely ignore him is not the answer either, especially when your team cannot generate any offense in the run of play.
     
  11. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That 100% implies he's wants Bradley to be out creative hub.

    Bradley can easily fit into a CM role in a flat 4-4-2.
     
  12. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #287 Footsatt, Apr 6, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
    Very true... just looking at the last 2 games helps prove this point.

    [​IMG]

    On the left is the 0 - 2 result. Bradley is played in position as a b2b mid, but here are the problems...
    • First he has Mix playing as a 6 so MB needs to help him.
    • Yedlin on the wing is one attacking player possibly above MB, but he is better suited as a RB. Yedlin himself admits he is still learning to position himself correctly as a RB... so why would he be good at positioning himself as a RM?
    • Bedoya never plays good as a LM... every time he is used as a LM he has a bad game.
    • Because Bedoya is a terrible LM and Yedlin is a work in progress RM this formation basically has Wood & Dempsey up top with Bradley the main link (playing the 10 too)
    • So he is the b2b mid who is forced into the 10 role and has to help the 6.
    • He is stretched and asked to do to much
    On the right is the 4 - 0 result. Again he is a b2b mid, but in this lineup he is asked to do less and can focus more as a true b2b mid.
    • MB has 3 clear attackers in front of him and Zusi helping to supply the attack.
    • Beckerman is the clear number 6 and MB does not need to support him as much as he did with Mix
    • In this line up he is a b2b CM that shares the ten role with Zussi and he has limited to no responsibility as the 6.
    • He has less responsibility and he can focus his talents into a true b2b mid
     
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  13. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    You have that exactly backwards. Martins was the key player of that side. Dempsey was the primary beneficiary.

    And there goes pretty much your entire theory. Dempsey is not the creator on this US side. One can't expect Dempsey to create much, because he's not a creator and never has been.
     
  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I don't have anything backwards. Alonso, Dempsey, and Martins were the key players in the team. Martins provided the running and energy that Dempsey could no longer consistently provide. Yet, Dempsey had 10 goals and 10 assists. So again, Martins in addition to performing his own tasks(15 goals and 6 assists), carried Dempsey's water.
     
  15. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    No offense but that makes no sense. A guy who played in 25 games with 15g and 4a, carried the water of a guy who played in 24 games with 12g and 9a? (source:: ESPNFC)

    Seems to me that neither carried the other's anything.
     
    napper repped this.
  16. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #291 TheHoustonHoyaFan, Apr 6, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
    Repped for good analysis except for a couple of points:
    • A 4-4-2 flat is played with dual #6 (empty bucket) or dual #8 (double pivot/pulley). What makes you say that Mix was a #6 which would be a 4-1-3-2 not a 4-4-2?
    • A 4-4-2 flat does not have anyone playing a #10 role. What makes you think that MB90 is playing as a #10?
    • Your concerns appears to be around the limitations of a 4-4-2 not Bradley's role in one. If I misunderstood, please construct a flat 4-4-2 where Bradley is playing as a CM but does not have the issues you described.
    Does Bradley have the same issues in the formation below:

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley is not, nor has he ever been, at his best in a flat 4-4-2 with a dual central midfielder. He is at his best when a 6 is behind him. Lately his best has been, meh.
     
  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Bradley did quite well in the '10 cycle while mostly playing in a flat central midfield with the NT. He has excelled variously as a 6, an 8, and an 8/10. He doesn't have a 'best position'; he does have a 'best role', however.

    If one guy is doing the running for another guy then, yeah, the former is carrying the latter's water.
     
  19. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    When you get to China, keep digging if you can.
     
  20. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Brah, if you've run out something substantive to add, just let it go. You're not helping yourself.
     
  21. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't know what carrying water means, but Dempsey has usually been partnered with a more industrious forward/attacking mid doing the off-the-ball work to create space for him to operate underneath: Twellman, LD (later Altidore) for the US, Zamora at Fulham, Martins in Seattle.
     
  22. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In a flat 4-4-2 with dual 6s or dual 8s typically one mid plays back a little farther then the other. I would have to re-watch, but if I remember correctly Mix was mostly playing behind MB. Someone in this thread posted a formation chart showing Mix lining up behind MB. Found it... thanks @appoo [​IMG]
    In this chart it shows a 442 but mix is more in a true number 6 position.

    Exactly... in a 442 there is no true number 10, so someone has to step up and provide service to the attack... Bedoya wasn't cutting it on the left, and on the right it's a lot to ask Yedlin to be the guy providing most of the service. Mix was playing further back, that leaves Mike to be the main contributor in creating the attack. he wasn't playing a 10, but he took on most of the burden in creating the attack.

    You are correct the issues will be there in any 442, but if the wrong guys are implemented (players with limited attacking support) then a lot of the burden falls on MB.

    I will think about the last part and post later. I do believe there were some 442 lineups in 09 and 10 that worked with the correct personal.

    ...and the image you posted I can't see. the link is broken.
     
    WrmBrnr and MPNumber9 repped this.
  23. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    When I think of Mix alongside Bradley, I think of Jose Torres against Slovenia in 2010. The guy doesn't have the range to cover our defense or cover for Bradley by himself. This is also why Beckerman isn't a good choice and got exposed at the Gold Cup. When we gave the job of being the sole anchor behind Bradley to a holder like Maurice Edu, gifted with athleticism, things went better. Of course not just any bruiser will do. Jones has rarely worked with Bradley, the same way Ricardo Clark ended up blowing hot and cold.

    The other solution is using a central trio, which is what we saw against Guatemala. It allowed Bradley and Zusi up the field without leaving a huge gap between our defense and midfield and only one man to cover it.

    And that isn't even the end of it because covering for Bradley to attack doesn't mean our attack is going to be successful. The 2014 World Cup was a perfect example of this, with our wing and forward options not really able to deliver offensively, which was kind of a bummer since Mikey wasn't in great form either. Even on his best day, he can't create all on his own, and our best moments really only seemed to be from Jones or Johnson charging forward from deep, or Yedlin coming off the bench. Zusi contributed similarly against Guatemala, admirably helping to press and cover defensively and join the attack when it was wise. Wood and Zardes provided some nice variability as wide men. Both threatened to get in behind with pace, and Zardes' physical threat led to a goal.

    I'm just tired of seeing the same mistakes in the middle, especially when we've had clear examples of what has and hasn't worked.
     
    DHC1, WrmBrnr and 21st Century Pele repped this.
  24. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    Not that the two questions have anything to do with each other. It's the roles that matter in this sport. Not the location.
     
  25. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    Dempsey is the outlet. He's the finisher. He gets his assists at the end of an attackign move. It's Bradley's job to pick out the attacks and facilitate them.

    With BMG, Chievo, and Roma his job was to A) defend, B) Maintain possesion, C) get the ball to the more creative players, and D) make late runs into the box.

    Under Coach Bradley, Michael had more freedom to make more attacking passes, yet nonetheless, his primary jobs in the attack was to get the ball to Landon and Clint and let them create out of the midfield.

    Under Klinsmann, Dempsey no longer plays that role. He's a pure forward.
     

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