Kim Bo-Kyung @ Cardiff City F.C. 2014-2015 [R]

Cardiff was relegated two whole years after KBK joined. If KBK hadn't sucked terribly that year in the PL, his move might look brilliant had he played better and had been picked off relgated Cardiff's corpse.

I thought it was a terrible move at the time, but that was because of the issues he faced in first half year which he overcame (adapting to UK, proving himself in more physical championship). Don't be mixing present facts with the past. Cardiff's subsequent promotion only proved his gamble right more so than their relegation proved his move stupid.

Had he gone to Dortmund and be stuck off the squad or with reserves like Ji, or really struggle with Pulis' old-school system as he is with Slade (and Pulis also left so hardly an example of stability in retrospect), or struggle with Portuguese language, things could have similarly ended up poorly.

EDIT: as an aside, Cardiff is more hilarious than politically unstable.

 

Is 2 years really that long of a time? Well even if the short term results of that gamble were good, it doesn't make sense to rule out its long term results - it's part of the same gamble. KBK like most other Asian players needs a club in stable standing (league standing, coaching, tactics, politics, whatever works) that could offer consistent top flight playing time over a few seasons. PJS struggled early at PSV too. There have been too many Korean players who struggled to adjust and find form at middling or relegation threatened clubs in top leagues. I think only LCY and CBK have seamlessly adjusted to a top league straight from Asia. KBK isn't on that level and should have been more patient with his choice. Benfica really wanted him and in my opinion would have been a much better choice than Cardiff.

 

Benfica would have been the worst move. He could have easily gotten lost at the club (big squad) behind Gaitan and etc..

 

I honestly don't see how things could have turned out worse for KBK. Benfica and Dortmund both have an eye for talent and they both wanted him. Maybe I overrate him, but I was really expecting big things out of this kid.

 

KBK is my favorite KNT player but unlike Dortmund, Benfica collects cheap talents. Some work out.. some just disappear. Also, has any Asian player succeeded in Portugal so far?

 

Fair point, but if Suk Hyun Jun can bang in a few goals for Maritimo, I don't see why KBK wouldn't be able to play well there. Well no use crying about it now I guess. I'm just sad to see him wasting away.

 

You are using terrible logic and letting hindsight bias your decision. Things could have been way worse. Yes KBK had a rough six months but he earned the managers trust with hard work and was rewarded with plenty of minutes. Thats a far better situation than PCY or Ji at Sunderland or even YSYs first 2 yrs.

KBK had conquered the worst of his decision. He was finally a PL player with the trust of his teammates and his manager. Too bad he sucked at the higher level and his invisible performances helped get his manager canned and didn't do much with the few chances he's been given with subsequent managers. Had he done better he would have been bought off like caulker.

Yes. The average manager tenure is laughably small and relying on managers who get themselves fired or quit soon after is no formula for success. There's NO formula for KPA success. We've seen players like Ji fail at a big club (couple times now), YSY fail and reborn at a bad one, and a variety of outcomes in between.

There's no such thing as a stable club except at the very top. Dortmund is relegation zone. Southampton is a disaster and near the top. And Portuguese football is no simple path to top tier football.

 

First of all, you know that KBK's invisible performances weren't a major cause of his manager getting sacked - that's really not a reasonable implication to make. Cardiff as a whole was clearly not good enough to stay in the Premiership, plain and simple. That's the first mistake KBK made. We can both agree that the possibility of Cardiff moving up to the Premiership was a big gamble. So was the possibility of Cardiff staying in the Premiership. Willingness to spend doesn't equate long term top flight success - at least not when you're spending on the level of Cardiff. How can you argue that I'm letting hindsight bias my decision when the facts plainly state that Cardiff wasn't cut to stay in the PL? Is this hindsight bias or was KBK (and you) straight up wrong in thinking that he had a stable and fruitful future in the PL with Cardiff? If KBK and his advisors were right, Cardiff would still be in the PL regardless of how he performed. KBK misjudged Cardiff's competency as a football club. It was painfully obvious that Cardiff was gambling heavily to try to become a regular in the Premiership. What do you know, Cardiff failed after only one season in the Premiership. It's just ludicrous to believe that there was never a cause for concern. In fact, there were many red flags and a lot of people were worried about something like this happening. You can't just ignore the results because it doesn't conform to your ideas. The present results are NOT independent of KBK's original transfer decision.

As a KNT fan you should know how hard KPAs have it in Europe. There's all the usual stuff like homesickness, language barriers and significant tactical differences. Racism is also a real issue as we saw with KBK. Now, imagine having to deal with all that BS amidst multiple coaching changes, an extremely disruptive atmosphere in the clubhouse and tremendous pressure to stay out of/bounce back from relegation. Not to mention all of this is happening in the top tiers of English football, arguably the most cutthroat and unforgiving environment in the world for a professional footballer. Do you really think that this is a good environment for a young, still developing KPA? For the reasons I listed above, KPAs are more fragile than the average footballer playing in Europe. Going to Benfica, Dortmund or Stoke surely would have been risky choices, but none of them posed as many red flags and question marks as Cardiff City. Tell me Skim, did any of those clubs go through what Cardiff did in the past 3 seasons? Can you say Cardiff was unlucky to go through what they did, or were they just incompetent?

You bring up what happened to Ji at Sunderland. He laid a dinosaur-sized egg there and Sunderland fans still think of him as their version of Bebe. Now as KNT fans we know that he isn't as bad as what he showed at Sunderland. He looked like a ghost of himself at his second Sunderland stay ... just a few months after his impressive half-season at Augsburg. Look at the footballing environment Sunderland created for Ji and compare that with how Augsburg treated him. Not to mention the Bundesliga is much easier to transition into from a purely footballing perspective. There's no such thing as the secret for KPA success in Europe, but there sure as hell are situations that KPAs really need to avoid. As I see it there are such things as best practices in this business for KPAs, and I strongly, strongly believe that avoiding relegation PL clubs is one of them. KBK showed flashes of his potential against top competition in the Premiership - if I recall correctly he actually played better against stronger opponents. KBK needed to find a team that was in the proper position to cultivate his potential with patience for an extended period of time, just as Eindhoven was equipped to be patient with PJS.

Cardiff is not that kind of club.

 

This is comedic. Get your basic facts straight. He did NOT join a relegating PL club. That's your hindsight talking.

He joined a championship club that was clearly spending a TON of money to get promoted and did so EASILY. Yes they went down but that was TWO WHOLE seasons after KBK joined and went down despite spending enormous sums in an attempt to stay up, including buying Medel who is now playing for Inter rather than not even making the bench for a Championship team.

Yes the fans at Cardiff were upset at turning their shirts red, and certainly there was some contention between Tan and Mackay but nothing on the order that would have predicted the racism thing (which KBK has stuck to his statement that he did NOT experience anything from Mackay) and certainly no different than any other manager in top tiers of football.

There's no judging how things will end up. Most of us thought Fulham was a far better bet than QPR but look at YSY now who's enjoyed a chance to shine in PL while Fulham is adrift in the championship. Dortmund has struggled so badly in the BL that they had to let Ji go since they didn't have resources on a project that was FREE.

HJH joined the Bundesliga and he's still third CH. PJB can't even get to that level. Even Ji going back to Augsburg the 2nd time resulted him sitting on the bench.

 

At the end of the day, if there were great opportunities for KBK to have gone to a top division club, don't you think his agents would have snatched at the chance (and for a grab of top tier fees)?

KBK had plenty of chances. He had 21 starts and 7 sub appearances just in the PL alone. Oh yes, thats way more minutes (1600+) than Koo (<900) got at stable Wolfsburg in the Bundesliga before being loaned out.

 

Alright, you're taking this way too personally and your tone is disrespectful as hell, but that's fine. Just don't put words in my mouth. I never said he was joining a just relegated side, ffs I was following him closely just like you were. What I'm saying is this, let me bold it and underline it for you because you're clearly having a lot of trouble with reading comprehension:

If you're going to join a Championship club hoping to get promoted, you best be prepared for that club to struggle to stay up!!!

KBK's choice hinged on two uncertain gambles - the first was getting to the PL and the second was staying up. Everybody focused on the getting there but staying up was just as critical and just as difficult. What do you know, the first gamble worked but the second failed miserably. That's all there is to it. That's a lot of "what ifs" for your first club in Europe. If Cardiff had been spending enough, they sure as hell wouldn't have come in dead ********ing last. Tan only spent enough to reach the PL. Cardiff was NOT A GOOD SIDE. Wake the f up Skim, this team finished dead last. Not 17th, not 18th, or even 19th. They finished 20th and are now 12th in the Championship, yet you make Vincent Tan sound like Sheikh ********ing Mansour. I would understand if we were talking about a club with healthy management and a solid footballing philosophy like Swansea, but Cardiff has never ever been a convincing side. Sure they spent some money, but again, it was nowhere enough to guarantee a spot in the Premiership. If KBK thought Cardiff would get relegated after one season after such a collectively lackluster display, I highly doubt that he'd have gone there. If you think he would have gone to Cardiff anyway, we're not going to be able to settle this argument.

As for your other points about other KPAs...

You have the likes of PJH who moved to a league that he could handle and is now thriving after working his way up...
There are guys like PCY and KJS who moved to a league that they could handle and were good enough to make an immediate impact...
There's KSY who moved to Celtic, struggled here and there, but was ultimately able to handle the competition in the Scottish League and moved to a well-managed club in the PL...
There's LCY who was the only one skilled enough to adjust immediately to the Prem...
Then there's LYP who patiently waited to move to a reasonable team in the PL after proving himself in the Netherlands and in the CL...
Again there's Ji who played much, much better at a club that was patient with him...
And then you have PJS, who had a terrible first season where his confidence was destroyed, but had a coach and club - both in stable standing - who believed in him and could afford to wait for him.

Can you imagine if someone like PJS went to to Cardiff for his first European club? Just letting you know that PJS repeatedly said that he expected KBK to become his successor.

And you brought up Medel. Not sure I understand you here. So he couldn't even make the bench for Cardiff but is now playing for Inter? If that's what you're saying, what do you think this says about how clubs like Cardiff cultivate talent?

 

Please tell me again where cardiff was impatient with KBK. They gave him months to recover from Olympics and then get acclimated and he took his chance and ran with it.

They gave him tons of minutes in the EPL. Even this year, they've tried to get him going via reserves, cup matches and the odd start but he's failed to do anything consistent with it.

KBK situation is no Ji situation.

Why are you giving examples of players working their way up? KBK has done exactly what you said, the championship now not being much different from the SPL/Swiss BL. And again, just look at Koo to see how everything can go wrong (whether its Wolfsburg, Bundesliga transition or even Tuchel quitting once Koo joined Mainz). And stop bringing up PJS, there are very few situations (and players) like that in the world.

Yes, any team that gets promoted has a chance of being relegated, but if you do well, you should be able to avoid going back down with it. Medel impressed and he's moved on (and to starting XI of Inter at that). Caulker impressed and he's moved on. KBK didn't and now he's stuck in the championship. And he's not fighting his way out like LCY.

And yes, Cardiff had a bad year, but at the start, they were hardly unanimous picks to get relegated. They spent tons on Caulker, Medel and Cornelius. There were a lot of variables involved in their relegation, and yes KBK failing to produce was one of them. Other factors were bellamy breaking down, Cornelius being a bust and most importantly, Mackay leaving and being replaced by OGS. Of which none could have be been predicted at the start of the season, let alone 2.5 years before.

 

His season in top flight wasn't as bad as you make it ought to be. He did okay imo.. started well but faded. Was it enough for other teams to poach him? Probably not but i don't think he was a failure. As for Medel, he got poached based on his reputation (WC and etc) and not because he impressed at Cardiff.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what happens when you go to a shite club that needs you to do things that you're not good at. A player like KBK was never a good fit for Cardiff. But don't take my word for it!

Source: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-evans-kim-bo-kyungs-attacking-6252870

So yeah, KBK had it better than Ji, who everyone in Sunderland was disgusted with. But Cardiff still failed to utilize KBK properly, largely because they were bottom of the table, facing relegation, and not good enough of a team to consistently play the kind of attacking football fit for KBK. So given that and the fact that Cardiff was undoubtedly not good enough for the Premiership, I would argue that moving to Cardiff was a terrible idea.

IIRC Medel played two seasons at Sevilla before he arrived at Cardiff. Caulker is English ffs and grew up playing in their youth teams. They were both defensive players playing at a defensive minded club. Is it fair to compare them with KBK, a skilled offensive player coming from Asia playing on a team that doesn't play to his strengths? Nope. Stick a good player in a bad situation for long enough and this is what happens.

Look, I have no idea why you think KBK moving to Cardiff was a good idea, but I think I've made my point clear.

 

It wasn't because Cardiff were denying him opportunities, thats for certain. I thought after the bright start that he ranged from adequate to invisible. And there's no way he looked like he should be picked off of Cardiff's relegated body

(and I think Medel still would have been picked off if not to inter)

 

Agree, he had his chances. It wasn't easy adjusting from Championship to EPL either (him and the club). His situation got worse when Cardiff continued to leak stupid goals & Mackay didn't have any option but to go on full park the bus tactics (and got much worse when Ole was hired). Kimbo's early good form was good enough for Celtic to bid for him at least..

As for Medel, yea.. he was going to get poached or leave in general considering the wage he was on. However, I still maintain it had nothing to do with his form at Cardiff.

 

Lol. I specifically said both before and now that moving to Cardiff was a bad idea, but that his struggles now have nothing to do with his selection of Cardiff over 2 years ago.

And I have no idea why you'd bring up an article which points out how he could be a liability in any top-tier side (because yes, all clubs have to play defense). But feel free to keep ignoring pertinent facts.

 

I don't disagree with this but certainly I don't think that one could have foreseen the level of fail two years in advance, especially if one mentioned that they'd spend some 8M on three players each and would win promotion so easily.

And really I think things got bad both for Cardiff and KBK when OGS got hired. That was a disaster.

We can only hope that the bid from celtic and daelhis escape that KBK may find a future past cardiff yet. And I suspect that KBK's agent may have had too many eggs on the Mackay coming back for him basket.

 

He has 6 month left on his contract... I'm sure he will find a place soon enough. Worth the gamble for many Bundesliga club as FA.

edit: This is simply my opinion & perspective but he took a big hit after Mackay gate this season. Also, it was Ole who supposedly convinced him to stick around in Cardiff this season.. so, it got worse when he was let go. Honestly, his mind is probably in another planet & doesn't give a shit about Cardiff at this point. Probably a big factor in Kimbo's utter shit form so far....

 

Are you serious?

The article literally says that KBK was the only player on that team who could "create chances from open play against Premier defences" and that Cardiff needed to play so defensively that they couldn't afford to play that one guy who could create against PL defenses. If you want to debate like an adult, you can't cherrypick the things you want to hear. I really expected better of you.

 

Hey @skimmilk and @doraemon - can you take this to PM? The walls of text and bickering are annoying as ********.

 

Don't worry, the conversation is over.

 

Dude started talking disrespectfully calling my opinions comedic and based on terrible logic, so I got a little carried away there. I'm fine with disagreements but I don't appreciate that sh*t. Whatever, everything's good. Sorry for the drama.

 

Guys, please take personal disagreements and ad homs to PM.