Höttges was a very versatile defensive player who could play at both full backs positions, central defence as well as in the midfield. Before Berti Vogts came along, his regular place in the German team was as right fullback (1966), then he switched to left fullback in 1970, as Vogts had occupied the right fullback position. In 1972 when Vogts was injured he was again used as a right fullback with Breitner on the left. But by 1974, Vogts was back and at the left Breitner was irreplaceable, now Höttges could have been used in central defence partnering with Beckenbauer, but of course it made more sense using Franz's Bayern teammate Schwarzenbeck at that position. It was a bit of an unlucky situation for Höttges, he could have still played a part in this team, but Breitner and Vogts were too strong (both world class), so 1974 became his first tournament where he was sitting on the bench.
Ah, sorry for my bad phrasing. Yes, I am (originally) from the old USSR but have lived in the US since the late 1970s. The gentleman who's in Franconia (actually, two gentlemen) is a father and a brother-in-law of a friend of mine (poorly written as a friend of mine's father), not my own (late) father. (But I do have an aunt in Aachen and another in Mainz) Luggi apparently is sort of involved in what was described to me as a "fashion store", owned by his wife. In an e-mail sent to my friend today, it was also mentioned that Uwe Seeler is frequently seen in the same parts and in the same company. BTW, I saved the e-mail. It has several photos in it, including his last match and a 1968 Germany vs. England pre-match team shot. It's in German and includes Luggi's playing bio. If anyone's interested, please PM me.
As I recall, Netzer finished 3rd in the Euro Player of the Year voting in 1972, just behind Beckenbauer and Müller in a very close vote. It's interesting to compare the 1972 West German team and the 1974 Dutch. As I'd posted somewhere else before, that 1972 team had 6 players who have placed in the top 5 for the European Player of the Year voting, albeit not in the same year (Maier, Vogts, Beckenbauer, Breitner, Netzer, Müller). The Dutch had 3, as I recall (Cruijff, Neeskens, Rensenbrink ... though Ruud Krol may have also made the Top 5 sometime in the late 70s), so depthwise, it's West Germany by a landslide. The fact that the German backline had gotten so many votes (although Breitner got his vote when he was a midfielder with Real, I believe) is also telling.
Well don't know about the votes, but even the fabulous Dutch '74 were missing few players from their original "suppose to be" line up, players like Jan van Beveren, Gerry Muhren and Barry Hulshoff and Piet Keizer (even though he had played a match at WM74, he wasn't in form). Intersting, who would it be? Out of Günter Netzer, Paul Breitner, Ulli Stielike, Bernd Schuster and Bodo Illgner.
Correct. Beckenbauer received 81 votes, Müller and Netzer both 79. Vogts didn't play in the 1972 Euro due to injury, but he was of course active in 1974. Overath is another player that finished in the Top 5 once. Krol made the Top 3 in 1979. Also Piet Keizer came in at #5 in 1972, but he wasn't really playing a part in 1974. My head aches reading that! I guess he's working for Adidas, like Uwe Seeler is/was.
I would guess they'd say Uli Stielike. He played for them the longest time. Breitner is also very well remembered, but I think Netzer didn't leave that big of an impression on them. Ok, I base that assumption on the one Spanish Real Madrid fan that I know personally, and he in fact didn't know who Netzer was but he was enthusiastic about Breitner...
RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1973 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1973 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Maier (Bayern) Franke (Braunschweig) Nigbur (Schalke 04) Kleff (M’Gladbach) Welz (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Bockholt (Offenbach) Linders (Duisburg) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Breitner (Bayern) Vogts (M’Gladbach) Kapellmann (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Höttges (Bremen) Bonhof (M’Gladbach) Hein (Köln) Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper) Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Cullmann (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: L Müller (Hertha) Skala (Offenbach) H Kremers (Schalke) Vorstopper / Man-Markers Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Cullmann (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) Weber (Köln) Höttges (Bremen) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Netzer (M’Gladbach) Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Overath (Köln) Flohe (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: U Hoeness (Bayern) Danner (M’Gladbach) Köppel (Stuttgart) Simmet (Köln) Zewe (Düsseldorf) Beer (Hertha) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Seel (Düsseldorf) Geye (Düsseldorf) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: E Kremers (Schalke) Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Held (Offenabch) Worm (Duisburg) Herzog (Düsseldorf) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: G Müller (Bayern) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Wunder (Duisburg) Walitza (Bochum) Ausländische Spieler / Foreign Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: H Jensen (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Hansen (Bayern) Schmidradner (Offenbach) Björnmose (Hamburg) Roentved (Bremen)
Summer 1974 - Kicker is in ecstasy, Germany had just won the World Cup! No less than six players are categorized as World Class, five of them Bayern players, btw. And finally Sepp Maier is acknowledged as a world class keeper (it took Kicker a while ...). RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1974 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1974 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: Maier (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Nigbur (Schalke 04) Kleff (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Franke (Braunschweig) Scholz (Bochum) Burdenski (Bremen) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Breitner (Bayern) Vogts (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Höttges (Bremen) H Kremers (Schalke 04) Dietz (Duisburg) Neuberger (Wuppertal) Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper) Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Cullmann (Köln) Fichtel (Schalke 04) Vorstopper / Man-Markers Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) Bonhof (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Weber (Köln) G Zimmermann (Fortuna Köln) E Diehl (Kaiserslautern) Rüssmann (Schalke 04) Kliemann (Hertha) Höttges (Bremen) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Overath (Köln) Bonhof (M’Gladbach) Flohe (Köln) Cullmann (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Kapellmann (Bayern) Roth (Bayern) K Toppmöller (Kaiserslautern) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Geye (Düsseldorf) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Hölzenbein (Frankfurt) Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Herzog (Düsseldorf) E Kremers (Schalke 04) Volkert (Hamburg) Held (Offenabch) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: G Müller (Bayern) U Hoeness (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Hölzenbein (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Fischer (Schalke 04) Wunder (Duisburg) Pirrung (Kaiserslautern) Ausländische Spieler / Foreign Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Sandberg (Kaiserslautern) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Ettmayer (Hamburg) Hansen (Bayern) Schmidradner (Offenbach) Lippens (Essen) Torstensson (Bayern) H Jensen (M’Gladbach) Hickersberger (Offenbach)
Gregoriak what is your favorite current team? You seem to like the past a lot, but I still haven't seen you post on any of the current forums that deal with this year's Bundesliga (although I admit the past Bundesliga seasons are a lot better than today's Bundesliga.
I am a football historian - German football once was a stellar affair, while today it is only depressing me. But my love of the past has nothing to do with Germany's decline of the last 9 years as I was already a football historian in 1990, when we won the World Cup. I remember everyone was enthusiastic after the final, celebrating and dancing in the streets, but I wasn't so much, because I knew that this was by far the worst final in the history of the World Cup as well as the worst ever World Cup, and I was really disappointed by that, as it had started so great with the 4-1 rout of Yugoslavia and the 2-1 vs Holland. My favorite team is of course Bayern, as I was born and raised in Munich so I had no choice other than to be a Bayern fan. Not the worst fate I guess! P.S.: the next Kicker Rangliste (July 1975) will feature a bunch of Hertha players (season 74/75 was their best ever so far), so stay tuned.
This was the season that Fichtel got suspended for 6 month and therefore Helmut Kremers (a Midfielder until that time) had played a deeper role. He then became a regular as Schalke's full back. He was vesatile, could play with both feets in many positions, and was great from the spot as well. I remember him when he scored a goal at his debut with NT, but didn't seem him being included for a while. I think he had a car crash or something, soon after his debut with the NT.....if I am not mistaking..... Anyway, I have never remembered him as a Midfielder, but I guess he might have been likes of a Neeskens, Uli Höness, Lineker kind of type at the begining, Midfielders who scores a lot of a type at the begining of his career. That makes me so........... Yeah, I think so with Luggi Müller, Beer, Sidka.....
Correct - he fell out of favor with Helmut Schön, because apparently Toppmöller had caused the car crash by driving too fast or something. Didn't go down too well with Schön. He had a comeback in 1979, but that was also only shortlived. Toppmöller very often play as a withdrawn centerforward. He scored a lot of goals coming out of the midfield, similar to Manfred Burgsmüller, for example. He was even once used as a Vorstopper (in 1975) against Horst Hrubesch - with great success. But that was a one-off. Toppmöller preferred playing in midfield, but in the NT he was used as centerforward. It's only a hobby of mine - no profession (unfortunately).
This July 1975 ranking is notorious, as Kicker thought it proper to let Gerd Müller drop from World Class directly into Broader Circle - not even good enough for international class. He was of course a world class player, but his performances weren't world class. Quite a drop. RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1975 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1975 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: Maier (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Kleff (M’Gladbach) Kargus (Hamburg) Franke (Braunschweig) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Nigbur (Schalke 04) Zander (Hertha) H Schumacher (Köln) Burdenski (Bremen) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Vogts (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Bonhof (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Neuberger (Frankfurt) Kaltz (Hamburg) Dietz (Duisburg) Dürnberger (Bayern) Ritschel (Offenbach) Glowacz (Köln) Sziedat (Hertha) Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper) Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Cullmann (Köln) L Müller (Hertha) Wittkamp (M’Gladbach) Fichtel (Schalke 04) Vorstopper / Man-Markers Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Kliemann (Hertha) Körbel (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) G Zimmermann (Düsseldorf) Nogly (Hamburg) Tenhagen (Bochum) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Wimmer (M’Gladbach) H Neumann (Köln) Overath (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Beer (Hertha) Bongartz (Schalke 04) Flohe (Köln) Röber (Bremen) Stielike (M’Gladbach) Sidka (Hertha) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Ritschel (Offenbach) Geye (Düsseldorf) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Volkert (Hamburg) Held (Offenbach) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Seel (Düsseldorf) D Müller (Köln) Kostedde (Offenbach) G Müller (Bayern) Fischer (Schalke 04) Burgsmüller (Essen) Ausländische Spieler / Foreign Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Sandberg (Kaiserslautern) Simonsen (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Lippens (Essen) Andersson (Bayern) Hellström (Kaiserslautern) H Jensen (M’Gladbach)
. Well it shows the football world was much less commecialized then these days....and of course the strict German way... I had missed this comment from you, as I was hunger to read the the list. Anyway, with out a World Cup it might have still been tough for him to get the credit. I may have said this somewhere before, but I wasn't sure of his ability until later years.
RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1976 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1976 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: Maier (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Kargus (Hamburg) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Franke (Braunschweig) Nigbur (Schalke 04) Burdenski (Bremen) Kleff (M’Gladbach) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Vogts (M’Gladbach) Dietz (Duisburg) Bonhof (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Kaltz (Hamburg) Reichel (Frankfurt) Merkhoffer (Braunschweig) Hidien (Hamburg) Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper) Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Wittkamp (Schalke 04) Neuberger (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Melzer (Kaiserslautern) Fichtel (Schalke 04) Vorstopper / Man-Markers Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) Nogly (Hamburg) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Hollmann (Braunschweig) Theis (Offenbach) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: Bonhof (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Beer (Hertha) Flohe (Köln) Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Stieliek (M’Gladbach) Bongartz (Schalke 04) Dürnberger (Bayern) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Tenhagen (Bochum) Danner (M’Gladbach) Handschuh (Braunschweig) Riedl (Kaiserslautern) Memering (Hamburg) Röber (Bremen) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Hölzenbein (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: U Hoeness (Bayern) Bast (Essen) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Hölzenbein (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Görts (Bremen) Volkert (Hamburg) K H Rummenigge (Bayern) Held (Offenbach) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: G Müller (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Fischer (Schalke 04) D Müller (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: K Toppmöller (Kaiserslautern) Hrubesch (Essen)
I wonder...why wasn't Beer selected as much for the German NT? It seems like Arne Friedrich has been the most capped Hertha player ever for Germany (other than Sobek I think). Gregoriak help me out here.
Had Erich Beer been playing today, he'd be a fixture in the current national team just like Arne Friedrich. Or the other way round: Arne Friedrich in the 70s would have been lucky to get capped more than 5 times. The competition in the 1970s was just much fiercer than it is today. Just think about a guy like Mike Hanke being called up these days. Ridiculous. Erich Beer's best phase was 1974 to 1977. In 1976 he even scored 24 goals as a midfielder. But in midfield, he had to compete with guys like Rainer Bonhof, Hansi Müller, Bernd Hölzenbein, Uli Hoeness, Herbert Wimmer, Uli Stielike, Dietmar Danner, Hennes Bongartz, Heinz Flohe and Jupp Tenhagen. What competition does Friedrich have at his position (right back or CB)? Wörns, Mertesacker, Huth, Owomoyela, Hinkel, Nowotny. Had he been around in the 70s, his competition would have been Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck, Vogts, Kaltz, Dietz, Körbel, Nogly, Höttges, Cullmann, Bonhof, Breitner, Zimmermann, Rüssmann and Karl-Heinz Förster.
He probably would have been Germany's best player...but such is hte state of German NT, that 1974 team was insane.
Here is the man who once was quoted as "Wer ist denn das? Der spielt ja wie Johan Cruyff!" by a Dutch coach back then. He had struggled with his back, which lead to have him hung up his boots early. Beer was a late bloomer when it comes to Bundesmanschaft. He was one of the capped Midfielder in the 70's, so you should calculate the percentage of the amount of Länderspiele he had played for the best to comapre with Friedrich (for estimates on numbers, not quality though as Gregoriak had comapred with the competitors Beer had and Fridrich now has).
I remember him getting a little overweight and losing that explosive first step that he had before. He still had the instincts obviously but had coasted too much, from what I recall. That beard made him look even slower.
I knew you'd appreciate his name appearing. Yeah, that beard. He kept it. He never kept the moustaches he grew before that ('71 and 73/74). Müller was definitely a bit fed up with all things football after the 1973/74 season. They won everything a club could win that season, playing countless competitive games and exhibition games for Bayern and West Germany, Gerd said he couldn't see a ball anymore right after the end of the season - but too bad for him there was the World Cup still ahead! He didn't play too good in the first games of that World Cup but got better later. But after the World Cup was won, Müller and his Bayern teammates really could have needed a lengthy break - they really were fed up with football by the start of the 1974/75 season, playing unmotivated and lethargic most of the time. At least Müller didn't have to play for Germany anymore, which took a huge amount of pressure from him.