Kaka as good as Ronaldinho in 2005/06?

Prime Kaka was every bit as effective and influential on games as Ronaldinho, but less flashy .. its the jaw dropping ball skills of ronaldinho that sets them apart..

 

I will offer a proper response after I watch Kaka's videos (which I haven't done), but for now, I wanted to comment on the statements above:



2:52 - Easy pass by Kaka. It was Shevchenko's impressive pass that split the defense wide open. In fact, Kaka could have easily finished the goal himself (had he been a little bit more greedy). Shevchenko's pass would've been an impressive pre-assist, had Gilardino scored the goal. On the other hand, Kaka's pass was easy and simple, exactly the type of pass or assist that a player like Filippo Inzaghi would be able to replicate without a problem. Overall: Kaka should get some credit of course, for doing something that technique-wise is relatively easy to do, but to say that "Kaka puts an open goal on a silver platter" without offering the proper context of Kaka's pass, is in my opinion misleading and creates a false impression.

4:56 - Good play by Kaka, but I'm not sure I agree that it was a brilliant through ball - it was obviously a very efficient through ball, but at the same time not the type of pass that I would describe as amazing. In my opinion, Barcelona's defense looked very bad in that play, which allowed Kaka to split the defense with what was arguably a relatively simple and easy short pass. A pass like that, should not split open a good defense. In this play, I think that Barcelona's unimpressive defense (at least in that particular play) was a much greater factor, than Kaka's pass was.

In comparison: yes, Giuly scored a relatively difficult goal, but Ronaldinho's pass was an amazing pass, which is something that I cannot say for either one of the two Kaka passes detailed above.

 

i see what you mean, and many people can get this confused. which is the same reason why so many people rate zidane so much higher than he should be. they are swayed by such things.

However, there is no way i would put kaka in the same league as ronaldinho. if we want to look at top games, off the top of my head, i can think of the performance against real madrid at the bernabau, with 2 goals, and the performance against an top chelsea team in the KO stages in which not only did R10 take over the game with his flashes but he scored a very good winning goal to seal the deal.

 

Henry > Ronaldinho > Kaká

 

you're taking this conversation out of context. the title says the 2005-2006 season. those games i mentioned took place in the same season including the game against AC Milan that you posted.

everyone knows that ronaldinho's peak is only 2 maybe 3 years at most, and everybody knows that his time with the Brazil NT was poor. you are the first person that i have ever heard say that kaka at his best is on the same level as ronaldinho. i wouldn't exactly say that it is myth considering that ronaldinho was better than kaka, and a level above, considering it was only about 10 years ago and all these games are quite easily accessible.

i still believe that ronaldinho's peak was at an all time great level. i also acknowledge that kaka was a great player who was very effective and efficient, but i wouldn't define kaka as being a big game player as ronaldinho, especially when you consider how many moments ronaldinho produced in 2 seasons from 2004-2006.

and don't forget. ronaldinho won the WP of the year award in 2004 and 2005. ronaldinho in 2006 until june was in spectacular form including having won the league and the CL. had he decided to take football seriously for the rest of the year, he probably would have won in 2006. kaka, was well in the scene since about 2003 and was no where near ronaldinho's radius at the time up until 2006-07 (henry came closest from 04-06). it wasn't until 2007, when ronaldinho was long gone that he (kaka) won the world player of the year award. don't forget that ronaldinho was becoming a bench player at this time

 

quarter final vs france wc 06
champions league final 2006
where was r10 during his supposed all time peak period?[honest question]

r10 was a world class player for no more than 3.5 seasons
03/04-06/07[first half of 06/07 season than his form dropped and never really recovered]
his career in psg is vastly overhyped just look at what his own manager at the time luis Fernandez describing him as extremely inconsistent despite his occasional brilliance for example against guingamp in the coupe de ligue
[a great goal indeed but against a team that finished 16th in the 01/02 ligue 1 season]

kaka's 06/07 cl season is a definitely as good or possibly even better than any champions league season by Ronaldinho.
peak for peak they were probably as effective as each other the only difference being r10 was more falshy[in terms of skills and not much else]

 

In my opinion the problem, as I already explained, is very simple:

1. Ronaldinho's pass was much better than any pass by Kaka.
2. Ronadinho's dribbling runs were also better than Kaka's dribbling runs.

Basically, your argument is that Ambrosini is the reason why Kaka's performance is "lowered." In my opinion, however, even if Giuly does not scores his goal, it still is readily obvious that Ronaldinho produced better passes and also better dribbling runs. I don't rate performances on the basis of Giuly scores his goal and/or Ambrosini did not scored his goal - I rate performances on the basis of what the individual himself produced, and there's no doubt in my mind that Ronaldinho's passing and dribbling was of superior quality.

 

Honest questions:

1. Where was Thierry Henry in World Cup 2002??
2. Where was Thierry Henry in Euro 2004??
3. Where was Thierry Henry in Euro 2008??
4. Ronaldinho's 2002 World Cup was better than any NT performance by Henry. Fact.
5. Where was Zidane in the Euro Final (2000)??
6. Where was Zidane in the World Cup Semi Final (1998)??
7. Where was Zidane in the Champions League Final (1998)??
8. Where was Zidane in the Champions League Final (1997)??
9. What did Zidane do (besides score a PK) in the World Cup Semi Final (2006)??
10. How many open-play chances did Zidane created against Brazil (2006)??
11. How many open-play chances did Zidane created against Italy (2000 and 2006)??
12. How many open-play chances did Zidane created against Spain (2000 and 2006)??

During their supposed prime, both Henry and Zidane went missing in many of the most important NT games of their careers. And even when at their relative best, Zidane produced ZERO open-play chances against Brazil 2006, Portugal 2006, Italy 2006, Spain 2006, Spain 2000, and Italy 2000. Zidane is the only legendary playmaker who I know of, who "at his best" repeatedly failed to create "playmaking" from open-play.

When Xavi Hernandez did that. Xavi Hernandez was considered to have been average. But for some reason, when Zidane did that, it was considered a legendary performance... Sums up why so many educated fans consider Zidane an overrated legend. Is Zidane overrated?? Is one of the typical questions of any half-decent football forum, because it's oh-so-true.

Bullshit. Ronaldinho was already world class before 2003/04. Your irrational belief that Romario was only world class when he played for Barcelona (1993/94) and that Ronaldinho was only world class when he also played for Barcelona (2003-2006) -- is irrational. World Class players do not magically become world class simply because the color of their shirt is different. Ronaldinho was already world class in 2002, as he showed at the World Cup. And Ronaldinho was world class for the entirety of the 2006/07 season. That's 2002 to 2007: 5 full years, which is more or less the standard for the majority of world class players. Ronaldinho's supposed "lack of longevity" is a myth that Europeans (some Europeans with clear biases) have made up, pure and simple.

 

If you're going to define "all time greatness" on the basis of Finals. Then what should be said of Cristiano Ronaldo?? Terrible in the 2014 Final. Terrible in the 2016 Final. Nothing special in the 2007 Final, plus he failed to score his Penalty Kick in a Penalty Shootout. On the other hand, Thomas Muller (Bayern Munich) scored 3 open-play goals vs. Barcelona 2012/13 in a Semi Final; Lewandowski (Borussia Dortmund) scored 3 open-play goals (added to one penalty kick goal) vs. Real Madrid 2012/13 in a Semi Final; etc.

And for the record: Ronaldinho's Final in 2006 was not exactly "terrible." Ronaldinho produced the pass that got Arsenal's GK sent off, and that moment substantially crippled Arsenal for the remainder of the game. And so, if Ronaldfinho's 2006 Final was terrible - then what adjective should you use to describe Cristiano Ronaldo's Finals in 2014 and 2016?

This RIDICULOUS myth that Cristiano Ronaldo 2013-2016 was better than prime Ronaldinho and/or prime Kaka, needs to die. There's no actual rational basis for it, besides CR7 getting repeatedly overrated on the basis of obvious-and-measurable-stat-padding and/or goals against Wolfsburg. Let's be consistent guys.

 

dude nodody has claimed that either henry or zidane for that matter had all time peaks so your list of games where they supposedly disappeared is entirely irrelevant.

the facts are ronaldiniho didn't even make top 10 ballon dor rankings in 2002
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy02.html
and not even top 25 in 2001
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy01.html
ronaldiniho's longeveity is a total myth even by the standards of players who had short peak periods
ie George best 66-72
garrincha 57-62

maybe only laszlo kubala had a shorter legendary peak [1951/52] but that is really the only player I can think of
2006/07 was a completely overrated season by ronaldiniho and please don't quote me his stats
26 goals looks nice but not when only 10 came from open play[mostly tapins] , 10 penalties and around 5 direct fk goals
ronaldiniho want even a real playmaker in 06/07 but rather a fw like messi has been for the past few seasons and also in 2008/09 [when he played as part of a front 3 attack with henry and eto ]

cl final line up

bottom line is 10 open play goals by a player who played mostly as a fw or ss is completely average stuff,his famed dribbling was largely a non factor bar the odd game here and there[ie vs athletic bilbao]
there is a reason why 06/07 r10 isn't rated highly by most analysts and it isn't because of some fictional European bias

 

although i do agree with your remark questioning the longevity of ronaldinho, i agree with leadleader on this matter. ronaldinho didn't suddenly become world class in 03/04 all of a sudden for barcelona. just because he was not widely know doesn't mean the top class quality wasn't there. you can clearly see from his last years at marseille and the world cup in 02 that the world class quality was already there. i don't give a damn about his rankings.
you remind me of the english fans that never rated Ibrahimovic as a top world class player until now. when ibrahimovic is an old 35 year old and the top goal scorer in the EPL in all competitions. english fans are the most biased and ignorant fans i know. just because a player is not on their radar means that he can't be as good as people claim, which is the same lame shit that people use to judge CR7 as a better player than Messi. because there is no way of telling how good a player is until he plays on a rainy day in stoke city. pathetic!

I do agree with you on this matter. right after the 2005/2006 season, Ronaldinho's level went down significantly. and there is now way i would consider 2006/2007 as part of his longevity. although ronaldinho had a few incredible moments in the season, it's not enough to consider it an elite season in any way.

 

I will join the conversation soon, just want to point out at this graphic is wrong:



Pires played behind Henry, and Ljungberg was the one wide right.

 

[back on topic]
usual suspects are hazard, neymar,bale and griezmann
griezmann
others like dybala and pogba are not yet proven at the highest level and arguably aren't even world class players[but have the potential to become ones in the near future]

hazard 14/15
neymar/bale/griezmann 15/16
would all easily clinch the ballon dor in
2001,2002 and 2006 and probably also have a strong case in 1995 competing against a overrated peak weah and sammer

 

the formation I posted is the correct one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_UEFA_Champions_League_Final
r10 played left wing in a 4-3-3 with deco taking on the traditional playmaking role.
the is a difference between a ss/wf who may possess tremendous playmaking abilities ie r10,messi,baggio even cruyyf for that matter and an actual trequistata/enganche like zidane,maradona,platini,zico etc

so within the context of ronaldinhos role[wf/ss] he was indeed a very average goalscorer whos 20+ goal seasons were hugely inflated by penalties and set pieces.
his goal threat from open play was easily inferior to kaka[Milan 04-07] and neymar 15/16 who played very similar roles to the one r10 did during his peak

 

Also, how was Ronaldinho not world class in 2002-2003? It's reasonable to say that 2002-2003 was not part of Ronaldinho's prime, but there is a big difference between being in your prime and being world class. For example: David Beckham was (arguably) world class for a good number of years, but nobody would speak about his prime as amazing. With supremely talented technicians such as Ronaldinho and Romario and Riquelme, we get this bizarre bias (BIAS) where they are world class ONLY in their prime, but suddenly they stop being world class when they are anything less than at their absolute best -- how is this not totally irrational? Long story short: Yes, Ronaldinho did not suddenly (magically) became world class because the color of his shirt changed colors.

 

thats interesting. i never thought about that, but it's so true. it's kind of like being a victim of your own high standards.

if i'm not mistaken in understanding your point, for example, we could say that Messi was world class from 2007 up until now. however, some may say, he was in his prime from 09-15. because of this, they may disregard his world class seasons from 15-16 or from 07-09 because he wasn't in his so called 'prime'.

and why isn't his 07-09 season considered world class? it's because he wasn't winning ballon d'ors. i agree, it's irrational, but i don't think too many people are aware of that

 

i get what you're trying to say but Pogba, not yet proven at the highest level???? Are you forgetting that pogba was a regular starter on a juventus team that was 1 game away from being one of the very few teams in history to win a treble??? and in the next year, he was on a juventus team that gave bayern munich quite a difficult time.
in all honesty, manchester united is so far down, i don't even think a player like Iniesta would be a shadow of himself on Manchester United. which has to do with the playing style of the team and the decreased level of play.
again, i'm not saying that pogba is on the level of bale, hazard, neymar, etc. based on longevity or team success, but don't say that pogba has not proved his worth at the highest level, at least in.

and speaking of international play, it would have been interesting to see where pogba would be regarded after winning

 

If Pogba had a winners mentality and had stayed at Juventus or went to either Barca, Bayern, or Madrid he would be a front for Balon D'or this year. He just starting to really hit his stride in the second half of last season, too bad he's more focused on being a celebrity rather than an elite footballer.

 

i understand what you're saying but i think Pogba has an incredible winners mentality, regardless. and i think at the end of it all, he will still be a successful player. it's just that this route will take a longer time. but i agree with most of what you are saying.

however, it is important that we also understand that if you were in his situation and you understood that football, if you are lucky, last until you are 35, 36 and the average life span is about 70-80, and you probably will not spend any time doing the jobs that the average working man does, then i think Pogba's decision is a very smart decision. he is probably getting far more money at manchester united then he would at bayern, barca, and madrid, especially when you consider that the only superstar that he is sharing money with is an aging superstar, and rooney makes quite a bit as well. in addition, manchester makes more revenue than any other team if i'm not mistaken.

i think it's easy for us to talk because we just look at such decisions from the surface without understanding the greater context of the situation

 

Ronaldinho at his best 2004-06 was perhaps one of the best attacking players I have EVER seen in terms of creativity and technical ability. Therefore, of course, as a player, Ronaldinho at his prime was better than Kaka from any period. I wouldn't even hesitate to say Ronaldinho at his prime was way better than Kaka in 2006/07(Arguably Kaka's best season), despite that Kaka was very efficient and played a big and decisive part in the Milan's CL winning season.

Kaka is a player that relies too much on pace and space for his dribble runs. On the other hand, Ronaldinho's attacking talent and creativity on an Overall Level is way superior.

 

Id have to disagree about the winners mentality having watched him so often at Juve. In his last season during the first half of the season we lost Marchisio, Vidal, and Pirlo. It was his chance to really make the team his and become the man, however he crumbled under the pressure of having more responsibility and Del Piero's number 10.

I get what your saying about the lifespan of his career and stuff however with his contract at Juve in one season salary he would be set for life.