José's first signing. Welcome to United Eric Bailly!

This. Rio was the finest Utd defender I've ever seen. Vida was exceptionally good too, and they were a perfect combination. But Rio's style of defending was such that the threat was snuffed out before most people had the opportunity to see it.

His reputation was always tainted by the high profile lapses in focus he would suffer prior to the not-pissing ban, in the way that most people do not hold the Torres and Eto'o rinsings against Vidic. The contract issues didn't help either, as far as Utd fans were concerned. But Rio had an epiphany well into his 20's, much as RVP did, where he suddenly started taking his position as an ambassador for Utd seriously and stopped kicking footballs at middle-aged ladies. From that point until he lost his pace he was magnificent.

 

You're wrong, and your entire argument is premised on the idea that English football doesn't have a hard on for defenders that "get stuck in." It does. The fact that you don't understand the difference between being better and looking better implies you have the same bias.

Maybe Vidic was better in the air. Rio was better at reading the play, tracking runners, and tackling. He was a better dribbler, calmer in possession, and a better passer. He was also much more athletic and much faster, so he could cover, and recover, much better.

The quotes are also quite irrelevant, considering I also found these:

“He was a great player, without a doubt the best centre-half I ever played with. I would say for a time as well he was the best centre-half in the world. He was such a pleasure to play with and play in front of. To play in front of him, he made your job so easy.” - Paul Scholes

“What a player. Quite simply the best centre-back I’ve come across.” - Michael Carrick

 

I think we all stipulate that BOTH were great defenders. I think we all agree that Rio and Vidic complemented each other, one providing more elegance (Rio) and other providing more toughness in the tackle (Vidic).

That said, there has to be something to the fact Vidic was voted TWICE as EPL POY. That's not a minor, trivial detail. It was a recognition by a wide group of contemporary observers of the game that Vidic was not only the best defender in the league during those two seasons, but was the best player in the league during those two seasons. This is an honor usually reserved for attacking players and in fact I see only Schmiechel (once) and Kompany (once) as the only keeper/defenders to have won this honor during the premiership era.

Let's drill down into the fact, and it is a fact and not just opinion, that Ferguson selected Vidic as captain. It's not hard to see why it was a fairly easy call to go with Vidic, who was far more a leader of the squad than Rio ever was. As great as Rio was, he was erratic and at times kept trying to more offensively than he was capable of. Vidic, on the other hand, never lost sight of his strengths and never (or at least rarely) got caught ball watching or dispossessed. And it was Vidic was by far the greater threat on goal on free kicks.

Rio scored a respectable but unremarkable 7 goals for United over 12 seasons. Vidic scored 15 goals for United in 8 seasons. True, neither were brought in for their goal scoring prowess but we can fairly conclude that Vidic was the greater scorer. Vidic was the greater defender. Where Rio edges Vidic was his elegance with the ball. But when you add it all up -- and I'm not even going to bother mentioning in details Rio's stupidities on and off the pitch over a decade (although posters here should check out Rio's infamous "Christmas parties" that led to the arrest of Jonny Evans for rape) to close the argument -- it's Vidic.

There's only one of the two who'd you pick first to lead the back line: Nemanja Vidic. The facts -- EPL POY twice and named captain by Ferguson -- don't lie.

 

Vidic was the better defender.
Vidic was the better attacking player.

Rio could have been a semi-decent defensive midfielder, whereas Vidic would have been lost in midfield.

When Ferguson had to make the choice as to who wore the armband, he chose wisely.

Rio was the one who led his teammates astray and at times disgraced himself and the club. Vidic never disgraced himself nor the club.

 

"Led his teammates astray," wtf does that mean?

You still haven't actually explained what he was better at. You clearly have some animosity towards Rio that is clouding your judgment.

 

Except for the days he decided he was playing Rugby.

Rio was a much better player, defender and defensive leader. Rio was a top 5 cb of his generation. Not just in England, but across Europe.

He was overlooked for captain due to injury record at that time. Period. Fergie confirmed as such.

 

Vida doesn't even make most of the better journalists best ever Fergie elevens, let alone claiming he's better than Rio.

 

Rio made Silvestre look competent. Nuff said.

 

The only way Vida tops Rio in the discussion is for best defensive transfer. An absolute bargain. Rio the better defender though overall.

 

The team clearly looked up to Rio. Have we all forgotten the pile ups? The rocket launcher celebrations? He rallied those guys, arm band or not. United's captaincy has been pretty empty since Keano's departure.

 

This.

We need to bump the Rio picture celebration thread I think. A friendly reminder.

 

Can someone please post a video, or even a photo of that rocket launcher celebration.

 

Remember when Rio got sent off in three straight matches against Liverpool? Wait, that wasn't Rio...

 

No, and even your arguments better apply to Rio anyway. Let's go through them.

- You're quoting Scholes and Carrick about how great Vidic was. That's fine, except Scholes calls Rio "without a doubt the best centre-half" he's ever played with and Carrick calls Rio "quite simply the best centre-back" he's come across. Even the players you brought up to support your argument actually consider Rio to be the best.

- I hate the POY argument, but I'd even go along with this. Vidic won it twice, sure. How about checking how many times Vidic or Ferdinand made PL team of the year? Ferdinand made it 6 out of 12 seasons here (and he's been battling with injuries for several years), Vidic has made it 4 out of 9. This whole award argument is ridiculous though - at this rate you could argue that Freddy Ljunberg is better than Scholes or Giggs, because he's won POY.

- You claim Rio 'stupidities' on and off the pitch and conveniently ignore the fact that Vidic was one of the most penalized players in club's history. Red cards, yellow cards, suspensions, fouls in dangerous areas - you have to take that into account when comparing players. You could hardly remember a foul - let alone a card - for Rio.

- For all of Vidic's goals, Rio's winner against Liverpool is easily the most memorable (and probably the most important goal) of all scored between them.

- As as captains - when Vidic got the armband, Rio was 32 and struggling with injuries. Rio's best years were with Keane and Neville as long-term captains, it's not like there were a lot of openings for him to get it.

- Our defense got better when Vidic got there. Sure, can't argue that. But we also got van der Sar and Evra and Carrick. Rio has somehow managed to get decent defensive play out of team with the likes of Carroll in goal and O'Shea and Silvestre playing next to him.

 

Wow even Stud has come out of semi retirement to drop knowledge.

Gatekeeper is getting responses out of every one.

 

Let's take them one by by one:

- You're quoting Scholes and Carrick about how great Vidic was. That's fine, except Scholes calls Rio "without a doubt the best centre-half" he's ever played with and Carrick calls Rio "quite simply the best centre-back" he's come across. Even the players you brought up to support your argument actually consider Rio to be the best.

Ok, it's my quotes versus your quotes. My quotes support Vidic and your quotes support Rio. Let's stipulate that each other's quotes negates the other.

Just for fun, I'll give you that one as a point earned. So far, 1-0 to you.

- I hate the POY argument, but I'd even go along with this. Vidic won it twice, sure. How about checking how many times Vidic or Ferdinand made PL team of the year? Ferdinand made it 6 out of 12 seasons here (and he's been battling with injuries for several years), Vidic has made it 4 out of 9. This whole award argument is ridiculous though - at this rate you could argue that Freddy Ljunberg is better than Scholes or Giggs, because he's won POY.

But surely you must acknowledge how extraordinary it is for a defender to be honored as the player of the year. Any one player can win it for dubious reasons but no player can win it twice for dubious reasons. Eyeballing it quickly the only players that won it TWICE are Cristiano Ronaldo...and you guessed, it Nemanja Vidic.

The fact that you hate reality doesn't deny the existence of reality. That would be like me hating the fact that Chelsea won EPL trophy in 2017, therefore allowing me to somehow conclude that Chelsea actually didn't win the EPL trophy in 2017.

You lose that one. 1-1.

- You claim Rio 'stupidities' on and off the pitch and conveniently ignore the fact that Vidic was one of the most penalized players in club's history. Red cards, yellow cards, suspensions, fouls in dangerous areas - you have to take that into account when comparing players. You could hardly remember a foul - let alone a card - for Rio.

Apples and oranges. The occasional yellow card just happens to defenders and sometimes, as I'm sure you're aware, a defender HAS to take a booking for the good of the team. This is actually very common. It would be a mistake to rely on bookings as proof of inferior play from a defender. Of course, you can go way too far with bookings but no one has ever accused Vidic of having been a cynical, malicious or in any way vicious defender. He was tough but fair in the tackle.

On the other hand, the team in no way benefits from a player being suspended for 8 months for failing a drug test or arranging for sex parties that result in his teammates being charged with rape. Reasonable minds may differ, but such behavior reveals a lack of leadership.

You lose that one. 1-2.

- For all of Vidic's goals, Rio's winner against Liverpool is easily the most memorable (and probably the most important goal) of all scored between them.

Forlan scored a memorable brace against Liverpool, but that doesn't make him the equal of Ruud van Nistelrooy as a goal scorer for United.

Vidic was substantially more effective Rio as a scoring threat.

You lose that one. 1-3.

- As as captains - when Vidic got the armband, Rio was 32 and struggling with injuries. Rio's best years were with Keane and Neville as long-term captains, it's not like there were a lot of openings for him to get it.

I've been waiting for the "Rio was injured" argument to rear its head. Fact is, when Ferguson had the opportunity to choose between Rio and Vidic he chose Vidic. Rio still had some fantastic years in him after Vidic was given the armband and he was in no way crocked as a footballer after Vidic was given the armband. But between the two it was a fairly easy decision and not even you argue that Rio should have gotten the armband over Vidic.

Even if I were to take that argument seriously, Ferguson gave the armband to Neville over Rio before he gave the armband to Vidic over Rio. In short, Ferguson did not believe Rio had the right frame of mind to be United captain.

You lose that one. 1-4.

- Our defense got better when Vidic got there. Sure, can't argue that. But we also got van der Sar and Evra and Carrick. Rio has somehow managed to get decent defensive play out of team with the likes of Carroll in goal and O'Shea and Silvestre playing next to him.

Not sure what to make of that argument as it's really a non-point as we didn't look that great defensively until Vidic came. Vidic and Rio enjoyed the same keeper and other defenders (no mention of Evra?) and managed to forge arguably the greatest CB partnership in the prem era, so whatever the margin is between the two it's not much. We agree that Rio was more elegant and we agree that Vidic was the better pure defender.

But we also should be able to agree that Vidic never let the team down either on or off the pitch. What's probably the most fair way to describe the limits of Rio's game is that he was prone to injury. It was usually his back, but it was also his knee (which one?). He played at least two seasons too long, maybe three, by which time he was a mess. All players go into decline, but Vidic only barely was in decline when he left United and apart from one bad knee injury had a generally excellent fitness record for United. True, he was sent off four times but over an 8 season spell that's actually not that bad for a defender who did most of the dirty work for his club. Vidic was nowhere near Keane in terms of disciplinary problems, yet no one here denies Keane's greatness.

You lose that one too. 1-5

What you can really hang your hat on is what could have been had Rio not suffered from debilitating back pain in his last 3-4 seasons. He was everything you say he was, but he was just short of Vidic as a defender, an attacker and as a leader and a captain-- in short, as a footballer.

No surprise as to why when Ferguson had to make the choice he chose Vidic over Rio.

 

It's ok to be wrong.

 

That's fantastic. Your entire post boils down to "I agree with my argument."

The point with the cards is that other teams (specifically Pool with Torres) targeted him. That's incredibly damning. No one ever made a point of targeting Rio.

 

personally i blame @Ashur for this.

Dear Ashur, can you please acknowledge that gatekeeper is your good friend?

Just once?

Please!!!

 

Now you're just making shit up. No forward ever licked his chops and said to himself "Vidic is a ticking time bomb so I think I'll target him." or "I'm so terrified of Rio I'll avoid him and target Vidic." If you were an opposing forward between 07 and 12 you were much better off in a 1v1 against Rio than against Vidic. And that's indisputable.

In your desperation to find any argument that you're getting dangerously close to claiming "Vidic was trash."

We've run this one into the ground. From what we've seen of Bailly so far he's got some of the elegance of Rio and some of the toughness of Vidic. Between the two, only one is the clear role model for Bailly.

 

I see gk has broken out the bold on his WOT, next step is full Neave CAPITAL LETTERS to win an argument