https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONCACAF_Champions_League I know that MLS clubs start the knockout rounds in preseason. It's a disadvantage. But if MLS were truly better, they'd overcome that disadvantage sometimes. Instead, Liga MX has won a bajillion titles in a row. MLS is spending more and improving. But I don't think that's enough to take your "in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, it's actually really close!" stance. MLS teams need to win some more games.
Really weird argument that Liga MX isn't better than MLS...I'm a pretty big MLS booster, but when Liga MX teams beat MLS teams maybe 90% of the time when they play head-to-head, I'm not sure to conclude that Liga MX isn't better. Anyhow, with regard to Gonzalez, I haven't seen him play yet, but I think the door is wide open at CM for the USMNT. Acosta, McCarty, Roldan, and Corona had their shots there in the GC, and none of them definitively staked their claim to a roster spot. I think if someone like Gonzalez (or McKennie) is playing a lot and looking good these next couple months, they could see a call-up for the likely November friendlies or maybe even January camp in Gonzalez's case.
Liga MX is in season during January camp. Only players on the outs with their clubs have been allowed to come in.
While I believe Liga MX is better than MLS, I agree with everything here. Liga MX has more depth and that is a huge factor in giving it an edge. I think the CCL catches MLS at a bad time in the knockout stages when Mexican teams are close to midseason form and MLS teams are in preseason or just coming out of preseason. If TFC could compete right now, it'd be pretty even. And yes, with MLS teams fluctuating in quality from year to year, its tough to get the top teams to rep the league in the CCL since they qualified on the basis of events 18 months earlier That being said, even if MLS is slightly behind Liga MX, there is still a huge overlap in talent between the two
Getting away from this league's discussion, I don't think LigaMX is a high enough level where he goes straight into the NT discussion just by playing some games in LigaMX. Of course, thats not to say a LigaMX player couldn't do so, but from what I've seen of him, I don't get the sense that he's good enough to be one of those types of players. Would like to see him establish himself more in LigaMX and with the U-20's in the upcoming U-20 cycle before he's in NT consideration. If he starts doing really well, he could accelerate that timeline. Thats my early read on this player.
I agree with this too. USMNT discussion is premature and unfortunately it follows every abroad player who gets a handful of appearances. Gonzalez is one of many exciting young American CM prospects (McKennie, Acosta, Adams, Gonzalez, Roldan, etc). He's in a great spot right now developing & getting minutes at a top Liga MX team. The odds of him going to Russian are slim to none because McKennie and Acosta are ahead of him as is Adams (who I think will likely get a January call up but is very unlikely for Russia). I also think Danny Williams will get back into the picture and Lletget will get another look. It's a crowded field So for now, I am just looking forward to watching Gonzalez & Adams progress for the U-20 team & build towards the 2019 U-20 WC with players like Sargent, Taitague, Brady Scott, Andrew Carleton, Tim Weah etc.
Plus, Roldan has proven more than any player you listed at the club level and may well be better than all of them in terms of current ability. Bruce just effed up his handling from last January camp through Gold Cup. He can improve, because he is young, but he doesn't need to. He just needs the requisite opportunities. He should have priority over Gonzalez surely. I agree with the general sentiment that there's a sect of fans who fetishizes any sample of play abroad, regardless of even performance level, thinking that warrants international call-ups already. It's the crowd that said "cap him now!" because Siebatcheu scored 3 goals in Ligue 1, before being demoted to Ligue 3 not long afterward. Many of these leagues aren't that much better than MLS, a lot of players can perform well for a few games and then fizzle, and you do need to perform just not be there associated w/ x-league or club. However, you do have to weigh in all factors, to know when to, not break, but bend the rules, to get the most valid outcomes. As I've said, in this particular case, there are some things that makes this situation feel a little different. 1. It's not any LigaMX club rather Mighty Monterrey, 2. He's seemingly a starter for them now not just some rotational player or guy who got a chance to start a season because games were less important and the transfer window hadn't closed, 3. He's more than looking like he belongs and plays with a real maturity in terms of physical ability and mental (positioning, effort, quick pass recognition, etc.) This shouldn't buy him a call-up in the upcoming camps, but it may in Jan. camp if he could get released after a good first MX season, and then in the subsequent friendlies if he backs it up with another impressive partial one. Yes, this is a position with no lack of competition, though. He may need to be a standout in LigaMX, and start scoring + assisting at a good rate for the position, to catch Bruce's eye.
Unfortunately, nowhere is this more evident than Liga MX Benji Joya, Alonso Hernandez (at Monterrey), Ventura Alvarado, Adrian Ruelas, Dennis Flores, Miguel Palafox - and I could go on Most of these American players come up through Mexican academies, get to the first team, make a few Liga MX appearances, and flake out. That being said, from talking with several people who know him, Gonzalez seems to be a real cut above. But no need to rush him
Really good post. Pulisic has normalized the idea of calling up teenagers to our NT since he was called in after only so many games and was already the best player. He is the exception, and not the rule. On top of that, he plays for a club where their bench players would be starters for our NT. Gonzalez, or any other Liga MX player, does not. For a player in Liga MX to deserve a Pulisic call up, they'd have to have a Rashford-like start it terms of production, which just isn't possible for Gonzalez at a position where experience is a necessity.
I'm not sure I'd say the exception, but I agree, not a rule. Just depends on the situation. A player like Wes McKennie should go into the NT immediately, if he plays regularly. Like bshredder said, I'm kind of skeptical of American LigaMX players. There are just so many flame outs. Gonzalez was already playing for USYNT's at an early age though, so he's not one of these unknowns who's come out of nowhere, just not sure based on what we've known of this guy for a few years that he's the type of Pulisic instant impact player or anywhere close to it. Should still have a decent chance become a USMNT player for the 2022 cycle.
Unfortunately this is also a position where we have a huge hole. It's been vacated by Jones/Beckerman and none of our young players has claimed it so far. Not suggesting that Gonzalez should be tried there immediately but as long as he keeps playing, he shouldn't be behind Acosta/Roldan.
Roldan sure, but Acosta is pretty much a NT regular right now. And that's leaving out Danny Williams in the prem, McCarty, who is Bruce's guy, and most of all McKennie, who with even half the appearances of Gonzalez should be ahead of him based on the level of play for his club.
I, personally, rate Roldan above Acosta. Acosta, despite of his full back background, can't defend period. McKennie looks great, but I really doubt that he gets half of Gonzalez minutes. Williams is Lichaj like mystery and I'm afraid that like Lichaj he isn't just good enough. But visually he does belong. And Dax unfortunately doesn't, he will be physically overrun at that level.
Acosta sure, because he's had his chances and under-impressed. But not Roldan because he hasn't had his chances to become a USNT regular and has majorly out-performed Acosta in the same league. The overreaction to one debut cap by Roldan, where he didn't even play poorly IMO for what he was asked to do, around a group of players centrally who were more experienced than him and did play poorly IMO (including Acosta), is quite stunning. It's even more of an overreaction than suggestions Gonzalez should be capped off the small sample he's provided thus far at the club level, or for simply continuing to play for them for a little bit longer. Roldan has been arguably one of the best players in MLS, and arguably the best player on arguably the best team in MLS, for a season and a half. Somehow that doesn't make him more deserving of a chance than just playing for arguably the best team in LigaMX for a fraction of a half season? That's what I'm talking about when I say any play abroad gets fetishized by some.
I agree with this. Starting for Rayados at 18 is something to consider. it's not just Liga MX, it's a very quality club and current squad he's made himself a part of.
I'm fine with that, admittedly I don't watch much Roldan. I was more trying to point out that choosing Gonzalez over Acosta is silly without getting into a Roldan discussion since I'm not qualified. Acosta can defend fine, I don't know where that's coming from. He's not a 6, so he doesn't play like a 6. Williams might be a mystery right now, but he's not going to be when he's playing in the most televised league in America every week. I just don't see the point of pulling Gonzalez into camp. He's a 99 who's played what, 4 games for his club? It's not like he's some dominant player. Acosta has already shown his quality against Pachuca, and I doubt Gonzalez can be as good as Acosta has been in his appearances against Liga MX teams.
I read an interview with Jonathan Gonzalez where he said he believed he could have made Monterrey's first team last season. But, he had an injury that preseason that held him back. At this point, he looks like he belongs in Monterrey's XI. My skeptical nature wants him to show it for the entire Apertura. But, I have already seen enough to make me think he's in a different class from those flame outs you mentioned. I don't believe any of them started more than a few matches in a single torneo.
Acosta is poor at defending 1v1 and poor positionally. He is box to cox midfielder who is above average going forward and below average defensively. Kind of Bradley Jr. Jr. That pair will drive CBs insane. And if Gonzalez isn't as good as Acosta he shouldn't be called, that's easy.
That was a fantastic, thought provoking, and well written interview with Gonzalez. I heard about it (Ventura Alvarado started a Liga MX final - which he won. Now doesn't make the bench for Santos Laguna)
Before talking USMNT, I am not certain JG is going to be an every game starter for Monterrey this season. He looks like he belongs and he did well so far. But, it may be that he's the fourth midfielder on the depth chart of a 4-3-3. Jesus Molina came on as a sub for Celso Ortiz in the last match. So, Molina may take JG's spot in the next match. JG's playing time may depend on whether Ortiz is injured now.
Taking a look at Monterrey's other midfielders: Jesus Molina - 1360 minutes in 2017 Clausura for Monterrey. 2 goals, 7 assists. Been a starter in Liga MX since 2015 Carlos Sanchez - 928 minutes in 2017 Clausura for Monterrey. 1 goal, 1 assist. Been starting for Monterrey since 2016 when he had 10 goals. Celso Ortiz - 947 minutes in 2017 Clausura for Monterrey. 2 assists. Started most of the 2016 Apertura for Monterrey. My guess is those three were penciled in to start for Monterrey this torneo, before Molina was injured in the Gold Cup. Neri Cardozo - 1353 minutes for Queretaro in the 2017 Clausura. 1 goal, 5 assists. Returned to Monterrey after spending a year with Queretaro. Cardozo was probably brought in to be the fourth mid. JG may have beaten him out. Jesus Zavala - 795 minutes in 2017 Clausura for Monterrey. 4 assists. Been with Monterrey since 2014 and was a regular starter for a couple seasons. Minutes have dwindled since. Probably a reserve. Arturo Gonzalez - 381 minutes in 2017 Clausura for Monterrey. Definitely a reserve.
p.s. Cardozo was out on loan to Queretaro last season. He has been under contract with Monterrey since 2010 and has played in over 200 matches for them. The more I look at Monterrey's depth, the more I think that Jonathan Gonzalez was probably expected to be the fifth or sixth midfielder going into this torneo.
4th midfielder on this team is an outstanding spot in the rotation for a player of JG's age and experience.
Sorry, I'm still traveling so I missed the complaints registered about the off topic stuff earlier this week. If you'd like to continue the comparison between/among leagues, please do so in the thread designated for it. Please try to keep this discussion focused on club-specific matters. Thanks.
He was hurt during practice yesterday, and Jesus Molina will play tonight instead. Unclear how bad the injury is. Una LÁSTIMA... Jonathan González LESIONADO y mañana iba de titular 😫— Diego Armando Medina ✋🏻 (@DiegoArmaMedina) August 18, 2017 ¡DE ÚLTIMA HORA!Jonathan González se lesionó en la práctica de hoy. Jesús Molina irá como TITULAR el dia de mañana ante León. pic.twitter.com/hBO6vwgXwa— DLPTLV (@dlptlv) August 18, 2017