Jonathan De Guzman (Feyenoord) - Will he choose Canada or Holland?

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Canadian_Supporter, Dec 17, 2005.

  1. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Eh? Might I remind you that Salomon Kalou was refused a Dutch passport. All our players are Dutch born and bred. The problem is quite the reverse: many Dutch born and bred players of Turkish and Moroccan descent decide to play for the country of their parents rather than their own, even when they've never even lived there or indeed speak the language. Funny how you never hear anyone criticise those countries.
     
  2. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    also, the Ivory Coast FA put their players in a prison camp under military supervision for a week after a loss, not too long ago. I can't see the Canadians do that.
     
  3. guppy

    guppy New Member

    May 19, 2007
    Aquarium
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nepal
    No, but the CSA board probably belongs in one. :p
     
  4. fscat

    fscat Member

    May 2, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    One thing I see here about this whole debate whether Jonathan De Guzman will choose Canada or the Netherlands is the probability of playing in a World Cup. Now I know that Canada hasn't qualified for the World Cup since 1986, but you guys have a good squad, definitely strong enough to be in the top 4 spots of CONCACAF. I think we all witnessed in the last Gold Cup how strong your team is, and am bewildered how you can't get consistent good results. There's no reason that you can't qualify for the next World Cup in my opinion.
    Now where he will choose to play, I have no idea. My guess is he'd stay with Canada, consistently breaking into that Dutch squad is no easy task. Plus there has to be a strong allure of playing with your brother on the national team. But at the same time, if he's good enough to be on Chelsea's radar, he's definitely on the Netherlands radar as well.
    Just out of curiousity, I know Julian De Guzman is a defensive midfielder, what position is Jonathan strongest at?
     
  5. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    You miss the point......have look at what DigzTFC posted -"I hope he plays in the World Cup, but with Canada only. If he considers himself Canadian he'll do the right thing." now that was arrogant ...Loyalty is much over rated, i's mostly used by those who it affects the least, the fan... where JdG lives and plays is his business alone to decide, assuming he owes anything to DigzTFC is ridiculous...

    DigzTFC-"I truly believe that playing in the World Cup is strictly to advance his career and not because of his deep yearning to represent Holland."and this isn't presumptuous statement? How the h*** does he know JdG reasons are?


    DigzTFC-"he'll need a EU passport in order to receive British work permit." That's absolutely incorrect, ManU's Tevez has a EU passport does he, how about Spurs Young-Pyo Lee, he's of Scottish ancestry no doubt.? If you play for your national team regularily (70% of games I believe) a player can get a work permit, which JdG could do easily if he commited to Canada. The fact that he is applying for a EU passport would strongly suggest he has become very attached to his new home. Not having an EU passport does not prevent him from playing in europe , it just makes it less of a hassle.

    JdG taking out EU passport tells me his first choice is Holland, taking up citizenship in another country is not something you do without careful thought. In some instances you must give up your previous citizenship, Holland generally does not allow dual citizenship. If JdG takes up a EU passport he'll likely be giving up his Canadian citizenship, call me presumptuous if you want but that to me says he's changed his loyalties.

    If doesn't get chosen for Holland where will he play? (Here's me being presumptuous again) Canada. If he has a choice of Jamaica, Philippines or Canada with his brother, it's not presumptuous it's obvious.

    If I were to bet on it I'd say he'll go with Holland, it's almost a sure thing. Some may say Holland doesn't need him now but no Dutch coach will tell him he'll never get a chance. If they've been talking to him they obviously think he can make the squad if not right away definitely in a few years.
     
  6. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    My opinion-1st-Our best players play in europe which makes it difficult to play together regularly, we don't have nearly enough international friendlies to become a TEAM.
    2nd-Not having a strong domestic league for development purposes or to supply the core of our squad.
     
  7. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004
    Fair enough, although if he were ever to play in Spain or Germany (I think) then having a EU passport would be very advantageous, no? As they both have limits on the number of non-EU players that a team can have in their squad.

    No, but you insinuating that playing with his brother only becomes a factor if he isn't good enough for Holland is presumptuous. Nobody here knows how much of an influence Julian is in his life, it might be a reason he would choose to play for Canada over Holland.

     
  8. fscat

    fscat Member

    May 2, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    I'm calling you presumptuous.
    First off, as you stated yourself earlier, he is a child of immigrants so he doesn't have the loyalties that someone whose family has lived in one nation for generations will have; therefore, he might not see taking on a citizenship as a big deal. Also, I thought he was just trying to get a Dutch passport, that's not the same thing as swearing in as a citizen, is it?
    Second, getting a EU passport isn't necessarily about trying to adopt a new country. I know this is true about American players, when they are trying to catch on with a Euro club, if they are able, they'll try and get a EU passport because Euro clubs might be more willing to bring on a player who won't count against their non-EU allotment. So if anything, this is probably what Jonathan de Guzman was trying to do. Even if he is trying to change citizenships, that isn't as uncommon as you think. I know for a fact that when Ronaldo was playing for Real Madrid, he became a Spanish citizen, and it probably had alot to do with roster limitations and things like that.
    In other words, so him trying to get a Dutch passport doesn't mean as much as perhaps you want it to mean.
     
  9. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Trust me on this, Citizenship is a very big deal!! you do not do so without thinking it out very carefully. When you renouce your citizenship of your birth you often give up the right to return. Depending on the countries involved there many repercussions changing citizenship, some good, some not so good.
    I'm an immigrant and citizenship is probably a bigger deal for me than someone who is born in this country, I have to make a conscious decision to live here, a decision native born do not have to make.

    Dutch passport=Dutch citizenship... and you carry an Netherlands/EU passport.

    If JdG takes ouit citizenship in an EU country it's because he wants the option to play for them and stay on after his career. He doesn't need to do this to play for Chelsea.

    Non EU player alotment-clubs have many ways around this, if the player is good they'll get him. The alotment is pretty loose regardless, I recall watching an EPL match not long ago with only 2 englishmen on the pitch.
    Ronoaldo-don't know what his reasons are but since he's tied to Brasil for life his citizenship is irrelavant, maybe he justs wants to stay in Spain after his playing days are over.

    Should JdG gain EU passport he has another option open for him, he could leave Holland and take up residency in England and after a wait period take up English citizenship. I think it was Carlo Cudiccini who at one time had the option to play for England as he wasn't tied to Italy. For marginal players EU citizenship is more important, if you're as good as JdG appears to be it's not a problem.

    Of course as someone pointed out he hasn't yet been given a dutch passport and is still a Canadian who can play for Jamacia or Phillipines as well.
     
  10. DigzTFC

    DigzTFC Member

    Jul 17, 2007
    Halifax
    I will kindly remove myself from this conversation as everything I say seems to extremely incorrect or outlandish at best. I use these forums as a method of learning and gaining more information not a sounding board for my inner turmoil. I'll admit the fact I was guided in my emotions in "booing" de Guzman. As I have followed this subject for quite some time, I will continue do so as a spectator and will leave the commentary to you.
     
  11. fscat

    fscat Member

    May 2, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    Well I'm the son of a immigrant, and I know from my father and his family, they've used citizenship as a means to an end, it's not entirely about some "loyalty" to some new country. I understand in some cases renouncing your prior citizenship is a big deal to some people, but I think for others, not so much. But in the case of de Guzman where it's Canada or the Netherlands, two Western nations, it's not as extreme as leaving the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War.
    Again though, for someone like Jonathan de Guzman, who's the son of Filipino and Jamaican immigrants, grew up in Canada then moved to the Netherlands as a teenager, I personally doubt he has a massive "loyalty" to any nation. Citizenship to him is just a tool for something else, perhaps playing for Holland, perhaps non-EU roster allotments, perhaps he just wants the auxiliary benefits of having EU citizenship, who knows. My point though was just because he's applying for a Dutch passport (I doubt that he has to renounce Canadian citizenship just to get a Dutch passport, I'd like a link to that), doesn't mean he's trying to get into the Dutch national team. I think your reaching for straws there.
     
  12. Viruk42

    Viruk42 New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Ottawa
    Doing research upon the wikipedia, I haven't seen anything to link passport to citizenship.

    I looked into citizenship stuff, and it does appear as though he wouldn't be able to have dual citizenship, except under one bit...

    And that's kind of iffy.

    But hey, that stuff isn't really important. The important stuff is passport related....hmm...there's one point. To get a Dutch passport, he has to be a Dutch citizen, unless he's getting the Foreigners-Passport...but that's only for when you can't get a passport from your own country...hm.
     
  13. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    Legislation dating back to 1997 requires foreign nationals to give up their citizenship after being given dutch citizenship. JdG avoids this under an exemption, that being living in the Netherlands for five years before he was 18. It wouldn't affect his playing rights anyways as FIFA cares little for citizenship laws, not only can he play for parents birthplace but his grandparents as well regardless of his own citizenship.

    And I'll post it again ..."If JdG takes out citizenship in an EU country it's because he wants the option to play for them and stay on after his career. He doesn't need to do this to play for Chelsea." A quality non-EU player does not need Eu citizenship to play there.This isn't clutching for straws. Searching for a glimmer of hope that he isn't planning this is clutching for straws. The evidence points to him wanting to play for Holland.

    Personally I hope he chooses Canada we do need him but I don't think he will. I'll understand his decision if does not and will cheer him on with Oranje.





    Viruk42-Foreigners passport-probably refugees... JdG needs only a Canadian passport and a work permit of some sort standard procedure anywhere.

    P.S.-avoid using wikipedia as an info source, the most unreliable source of info on the net. Listing wiki as a source would get you a failing grade on a paper in many Uni's.
     
  14. fscat

    fscat Member

    May 2, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    One thing, has JdG2 ever come out and said one way or another? Or is this all wild speculation based on this passport stuff? I know over on the American boards, there's alot of debate on the Neven Subotic issue on who he wants to play for, but at least he's thrown some stuff out there on who it is. I'm just wondering.
     
  15. SoccerNewf

    SoccerNewf Member

    Jan 16, 2007
    Pasadena, NL
    JDG2 has never stated that he has wanted to play for either the Netherlands or Canada. Simply there are benefits for a soccer player getting an EU passport that he would find beneficial.
    And yeah, a lot of what people are saying here is wild speculation based on nothing.
    In fact the only thing I have seen recently, which I posted is a quote by his brother that says a move to Chelsea this January would greatly improve his chances for playing with Canada especially if he does not get an EU passport.
    So for Julián to say that is big thing to me. However, everyone should take that for what they see it to be.

    Seems to me as this conversation has changed from who will JDG2 play for to what country should you claim loyalty too.
     
  16. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    wild speculation? isn't speculating on which country he wants to play his international football for the point of the entire thread?

    passport stuff-that's the whole point and it isn't wild speculation. He doesn't need citizenship to play for Jamaica, Philippines or Canada but he does need a EU passport to play for Holland. And he doesn't need a EU passport to play in europe. I would be curious to know if Stalteri or other Canadians carry an EU passport, I'm sure the americans Beasley and Adu do not.

    That's not wild speculation that's a fact, plus the fact he has not ruled out (nor has family) that he'll play for Holland should tell you he's considering it. If he is granted his citizenship he'll likely be on the bench at the Euro, and if he's not quite ready S Africa WC.


    Soccernewf-"In fact the only thing I have seen recently, which I posted is a quote by his brother that says a move to Chelsea this January would greatly improve his chances for playing with Canada especially if he does not get an EU passport."-That says to me Canada is his second choice.

    I can't blame him-play for Canada and maybe you'll get out of CONCACF lose 3 at the WC and go home...or play with Holland and every Euro and WC becomes a 90% certainty and he has a legitimate chance to win the damn things! Plus he'll be treated like a soccer god/celebrity rather than a life of obscurity in Canada... the dream of every soccer playing kid, I can't see him passing up the opportunity if he gets it.
     
  17. fscat

    fscat Member

    May 2, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    I doubt Beasley and Adu have EU passports also. But I know Tim Howard, Sal Zizzo, Gabriel Ferrari, and Danny Szetela do. The fact of the matter is, if you are eligible to get a EU passport, most players do, because it's probably eases travel for them, it makes it easier on their team, and it never hurts to have more than one passport.

    I find it humorous that you want this passport issue to be such a deciding factor on who he wants to play for. But you practically dismiss the fact that his older brother, who's pretty good in his own right, whom he talks to everyday, plays for Canada.
    Face it dude. Your reaching for straws. The way I see everything, based on what's out there right now, there is nothing to convince me that he wants to play for the Netherlands.
     
  18. Viruk42

    Viruk42 New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Ottawa
    Yes, Foreigners passport means refugees. As I said, it's for when the person can't get a passport from his native country, and it's highly unlikely that JdG couldn't get one from Canada.

    As for using the wikipedia as an info source, well, it's stupid. Wikipedia is actually a very good source, considering the internet. It's easy to find, easy to use, it's free, etc. And ya, people can modify it. Once, I loaded a page to see something like "Hi Jane!" on it. I reloaded, and poof, it was gone. This wasn't a common page either, it was something obscure than 99% of people wouldn't care about.
    Obviously it's not perfect, and obviously I'm not dumb enough to use it as a source in a school paper (though again, I think it's pretty stupid), but it's just as good as anything else on the internet. You try finding good information on the Black Walnut (I had to do that for my 3rd year project for Mech Eng technology in college) with the internet. Wikipedia worked pretty well, AND has sources at the bottom to check to see where they got their sources.
     
  19. Redondo85

    Redondo85 Member

    Nov 17, 2007
    Scotland
    Good point, although in some cases it's purely for residency reasons look at Albania and Olympique de Marseille captain Lorik Cana for example, born in Kosovo, Serbia to a famous Albanian footballer, moved to Switzerland as a child where his father played professionally, where he remained and began his footballing career. He holds Albanian, French and Swiss citizenship.

    It's weird actually how much De Guzman's situation mirrors that of Owen Hargreaves, both Canadians who moved to europe at a very young age, both eligable to play for more than one country (Hargreaves could've played for any of the Home Nations as well as Germany due to their residency rules). In the case of Owen Hargreaves whilst i'm sure he's proud of his Canadian and German roots he felt an alliegance to England because of his parents, which is a very common trait just look at national sides in eastern europe for example.

    It's amazing to think a few years ago the horrible things that were being said about Owen Hargreaves not only by a section of England supporters but by journalists and pundits alike and what happened? He made them eat their words and then some. Even if it does boil down to "I choose to play for the better team" so what? Who are we to begrudge someone the opportunity to play at the highest level, it dosen't make them any less patriotic.

    If Jonathan De Guzman does elect to play for Holland there's no guarantee he'll be a fixture in the side at least not for a few years at least, because as talented as he is if there's anything that Marco Van Basten dosen't need right now is even more midfielders to consider. ;)

    But like the saying goes you'll be "Damned if will and damned if you don't"
     
  20. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    traveling in europe on a Canadian passport doesn't cause any restrictions, my experience traveling in europe and I have an EU passport is they never ask for your passport unless you're coming from outside the EU. It's not a traveling issue within the EU.... the main advantage of an EU passport would be speeding up transfers (work permits)between clubs in different countries, being a citizen of an EU state allows you to work anywhere in the EU. An Eu citizen could be playing for Feyenoord one week and the next week he could suiting up for Chelsea.

    "nothing to convince me that he wants to play for the Netherlands." you're suffering a major lack of logic....JdG has refused to say that he'll play for Canada....what does that tell you???? hello!!!! wake up man!! the guy can have a spot on the MNT if he wants it but he won't commit, won't even play a friendly!!! playing one international commits him for life and he won't do it.... how much clearer does it have to be before YOU stop the delusional straw clutching....

    a quote from JdG's father. "He is a proud Canadian who would love to represent Canada, but how much sacrifice can you make for your country when you could have a chance to win the World Cup for Holland and participate in it."....

    and another from his dad..."At 18 he's making more than I'll make in my lifetime. If you get on a European team like England, France or Holland ... we're absolutely talking millions and millions of dollars."

    and the most telling from the JdG himself 'I believe Canada has been in the World Cup once in its history and Holland goes basically to every World Cup,” he noted. and another ... “If you play for Canada, you might miss a (club) game.” ... "I could also play for the Dutch national team if I have such a passport."

    you have to be totally delusional to think he's not wanting to play for Holland, the only way it won't happen is if Holland refuses him citizenship...
     
  21. Viruk42

    Viruk42 New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Ottawa
    The quote's from his father aren't necessarily important. Sometimes parents take too much interest in what their kid is doing. It could be he hasn't played for Canada because his father is pressuring him not to. Obviously, we don't know that, but it's still a possibility (along with other thousands of things). The point is that while his father is a factor in what he does, what he says to the media means nothing, because it is Jonathan's choice.

    I think both sides of this argument are kind of delusional. Look at the facts...

    He hasn't played a game for either side.

    Yes, you can say he doesn't have his passport, but he's been there since he was 12, and last time I checked, he could have got it at 18. Then he would have been able to play for their U-20's, or U-21s, or whichever.


    If he's made up his mind, then yes, it's Holland. There'd be no point in choosing Canada and then not playing. But there's no proof that he's made up his mind. It's certainly possible that he hasn't decided yet, and so he's keeping his options open.
     


  22. We cannot, because he ticks every box that goes with it.. 5 years minimum residence, speaks Dutch, went to school in the Netherlands, pays taxes, isnot dependent on social benefits etc....
     
  23. Trabant

    Trabant New Member

    Jun 17, 2007
    I agree, he's a very good player and maybe he will fit in nicely within years to come but I rather see him choose Canada. But I don't know how he's standing against his home country? Maybe he feels he's more Dutch then Canadian nowadays.

    I think it will be good for the football in general, the Netherlands have enough good players but Canada hasn't, if he choose to play for Canada hopefully it will give a boost to the Canadian football which means Canada will generate more good players, so in the future the NT will have a chance to win the Gold Cup or maybe even qualify for the World Cup.

    Same goes for Marcel De Jong btw. (Not sure if he made a decision already.)
     
  24. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    well then ... it comes down to patriotism, fame and money...

    patriotism-if he's a citizen of both countries and everything is equal he'd choose Canada because of his brother...but I'm sure he's grown an attachment to his new home as well, it looks to be a 50/50 decision

    fame-the attention he'd receive from the media and fans in Canada by playing on the MNT pales in comparison to the attention he already attracts in Holland...in Canada he would always be an unknown to the public and a minor figure for the media...other than FoxSR I have yet to hear any mention of him on any Canadian TV sports program and only once or twice in print...

    money-suiting up for Oranje will bring him many millions that an international career with Canada will never match...isn't money always the bottom line?

    I'd like to see him play for Canada but the more I look at it the more remote that seems...
     
  25. SoccerNewf

    SoccerNewf Member

    Jan 16, 2007
    Pasadena, NL
    I believe De Jong is suppose to be capped for Canada tomorrow.
     

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