Japanese NT @ AFC Asian Cup 2011 Qualifier [R]

Discussion in 'Japan' started by tralalarisa, Jan 20, 2009.

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  1. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Although I think that Okada may indeed maintain his anti-Kashima bias to the bitter end, its important to keep in mind that Kashima is playing an ACL match in Korea on the same day. In fact I heard that the JFA had to step in and offer some "mediation" in order to get Kashima to release Uchida and Koroki.

    Therefore its hard to read too much into the absence of Iwamasa and Ogasawara, who are indispensable if Kashima hopes to win an away ACL match
     
  2. shuvy87

    shuvy87 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2003
    USA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    I believe the ACL match is on the 9th. But it still does not change the fact that the Kashima/Gamba players will be playing a total of 6 games in 3 weeks, if they were to play in the March 3rd ACQ NT game.
     
  3. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Youre right. I thought they were this week but its next Tuesday, the 9th
     
  4. OneiroPhobia

    OneiroPhobia Member

    Feb 10, 2010
    Re: Japanese NT @ ACQ 2011 [R]

    Abe ahead of Kengo. Interesting.
     
  5. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Japanese NT @ ACQ 2011 [R]

    Kengo has a broken jaw
     
  6. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member+

    Jun 17, 2007
    Ichikawa, Chiba, Japan
    Club:
    Consadole Sapporo
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Personally I don't see where this talk about anti-Kashima talk is coming from. I know several other fans share your thought on that, but I don't really see which players not already in the NT that actually deserves a place there.

    Sogahata is a good goalkeeper, but he's not better than Narazaki,Kawaguchi, Kawashima or Nishikawa in my opinion. Surely he's better than Tsuzuki, who got a couple of chances last year, but I can't really see him in the starting line-up for the NT.

    Among the defenders, Uchida is a shoo-in on the NT, and lately Iwamasa has been included alot as well. Keep in mind that none of the other Japan NT-managers picked Iwamasa at a regular basis either, and I dont think thats only because Zico "brought shame" on Japan NT in 2006. Iwamasa is surely one of the best japanese defenders around, but on the NT he is a 3rd choice, which make sense to me. The two other defenders Inoha and Araiba are both very good, but there are better options at other clubs, and its those players who get called up to the NT.

    In the midfield, Ogasawara should be included on the team, but not as a starting member. Its limited how many playmakers Japan can use, and because of that Ogasawara have fallen down in the pecking order.

    Koroki is a regular member of the NT as well, although only as a back-up player. So apart from those four ( Uchida, Iwamasa,Ogasawara and Koroki) the only player at Kashima who I think could bring something to the NT is Takuya Nozawa. But with so many talented japanese midfielders to choose from, Nozawa is being overlooked. Im not so sure if he is better than the ones who's already there anyway so I dont really blame Okada for that. But that he deserves a chance, that I agree on.

    So although Kashima are 3-time reigning champions, the only japanese player at their team who I think should be a regular starter on the NT is Uchida.

    Its not like its the first time one of the best / the best team in a league doesnt have many NT-players. Arsenal in the late 80's / early 90's were very successful, with 80-90% of their players being English, but in the starting line-up on the English NT you didnt find many Arsenal-players. The whole conspiracy-theory about the JFA banning Kashima-players because it was Zico that led the troops during WC 2006 sounds therefore to me a bit strange. But with that being said, I agree that some of the Kashima-players deserves more chances on the NT. But I'm not sure if they are good enough to be regular starters.
     
  7. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]


    Basse, look . . .
    I dont want to get into a long "discussion" with you on this issue. Suffice it to say that Kashima has won three consecutive titles, yet has CONSISTENTLY contributed fewer NT members than teams like Gamba, Reds, Nagoya and even FC Tokyo. Your claims that Ogasawara, Koroki and Iwamasa are all "included" is a joke. Okada took over in 2007. Not one of those players was called up EVEN ONCE, not even to SIT ON THE BENCH until late 2009. And even then, it was only because Oliveira gave an interview to Sakka Digesto in which he said something along the lines of "well of course Okada Japan keeps losing. He doesnt call up any players who have experience winning titles." After that the press started pressuring him and only then did Okada call any of them up. Yet even then, they have two starts and seven total appearances among the three of them. For christs sake, Kazumichi Takagi has played more minutes under Okada than the three of them COMBINED!!

    If that were the only evidence, then we would have a heavy circumstantial case, but perhaps no "proof". But the proof is all there, and well known throughout the J.League community. Several people I know who have worked inside JFA house confirmed to me, in specific words, that there is a well-known anti-Kashima bias at the JFA. If you want to go far in the organization, you should always pretend you like the Reds . . . or maybe Marinos.

    (Conversely, the J.League is said to be a bit more pro-Antlers. It could be that this is one of the factors behind the feuds between Inukai and Onitake)

    You can talk all you like, and make whatever excuses you choose, but anybody who has been associated with the JFA for any length of time is well aware of this situation. And while it may not be as strong as it was immediately after 2006, this bias is clearly still keeping Kashima players out of the NT.
     
  8. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member+

    Jun 17, 2007
    Ichikawa, Chiba, Japan
    Club:
    Consadole Sapporo
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    I have no interest whatsoever in going into a lengthy discussion with you either, and although you might be right that there is some people at JFA who doesnt like Kashima I highly doubt that is the reason why Uchida is the only Kashima-player who is a regular on the NT.

    I mean... who else is actually good enough to be that?
    The way I see it, its Kashima's strength as a team, the way the players work together and know eachother as well as Oliveira's coaching abilities that are the reasons why Kashima are as good as they are. Their somehow cynical and cautious Chelsea kind of football also helps them produce good results, in contrast to Nishino's Gamba who are clearly inspired by Arsenal's way of playing football. I dont think Kashima's success is because they have the best individual players.

    I know you are a huge admirer of Ogasawara, but Japan already have Endo and Shunsuke in the team, and both are the way I see it better, so there simply is no room for him. I would trade Ogasawara with Kengo any day though, but I guess Kengo is there because he is slightly better physically and have better speed/stamina.

    Koroki got two appearances in 2008, and at the same time even Yuzo Tashiro were given 3 matches, so your claim that none of those 3 Kashima-players were called up until late 2009 is a joke. Koroki didnt break into the Kashima-starting lineup until that time anyway, so I think the amount of chances Koroki have got, and the timing of them, are just the way it should be.

    In 2007, Ogasawara returned to Japan after a poor spell in Europe, and his contributions during and pre WC 2006 werent great either, so that Okada didnt choose him at that time seems natural to me. Ogasawara had a good 2008-season, and I think he could should have been brought into the team earlier, but again, with Endo and Shunsuke already in the team and also Kengo there simply was no room.

    I would love to see Iwasama more in the NT though, perhaps in a 3-5-2 formation with Iwasama,Nakazawa and Tulio, as I think he brings calmness into the team, which Japan's defence needs. But apart from that, who is good enough? Aoki, Inoha, Nakata, Motoyama or Araiba? Inoha might develop into a NT-player if he can continue his nice progress he have shown so far, but none of the others have anything to do on the NT imho.

    But neither do Hashimoto, Hirayama, Tsuzuki or as you mentioned Takagi, and if it's because those players got a chance on the NT that you think more Kashima-players deserve a chance then I agree with you.
     
  9. Saku²

    Saku² Member+

    Aug 22, 2009
    Club:
    FC Salzburg
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]


    Hell yeah. 3x yeah. Nozawa has everything and especially what we lack. Dribbles, inspiration, speed. I'm even sure he could quickly become a starter if Okada gives him the chance to showcase his skills.
    Sometimes ... I feel like he's a genius. He makes some moves, he tries crazy things that the other players wouldn't be able to do.
     
  10. nsato

    nsato Member

    Oct 11, 2009
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    I do not see it either. I have no idea what is going on inside JFA and perhaps there is an anti Kashima bias but I really don't think we are missing out by not having Koroki, Ogasawara, or anyone else. Marquinhos would be nice though. Iwamasa should have got more playing time and not just sat on the bench just because we are more than screwed if either of Nakazawa or Tulio go down. Other than that I have no problem with how Okada is treating the Antlers player.

    I think nipponbasse83 is spot on on everything he said especially why Antlers is such a good team.

    I remember about a month ago on another thread in this forum, someone said something along the line of "It is a misconception thought by some fans that bringing in new players will improve/fix the squad" and he got destroyed but I kind of agree with him. I have a feeling that if players like Hashimoto or Yano were never called up, some fans would be questioning Okada why they never get the chance.
     
  11. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    First of all, you need to understand that the thinking of certain people in the JFA revolves around their past conflict with Zico, so guys like Uchida, Koroki and even Tashiro, who were not part of the Kashima organization prior to 2006, arent so strongly viewed as "Antlers players". Personally I never thought Tashiro was good enough to deserve a call, and the fact that he (and Uchida) were early call-ups at a time when more deserving Kashima players were overlooked, merely reinforces the impression that a grudge is at work.

    But as for the latter question, well, you shouldnt be asking me. You should ask other J.League coaches. Nakata may be a bit out of condition/over the hill but he was more successful in Europe than the likes of Santos and Oguro, who were getting calls all along, until well after Osim. Motoyama is also aging but until about 08, was one of the players that more teams inquired about in the offseason than any other fringe Antlers player. As for Aoki, I dont think you could find a single coach in the J1 or J2 who wouldnt crawl through broken glass to have him on the team. His type of play epitomizes the selfless work that produces real champions. Ogasawara is similar in many respects but he and Motoyama have the "golden generation" tag that earns them a bit more fame. Aoki is probably what Ogasawara would be if he came from a generation other than the "golden generation".

    Theres a very good reason why Kashima has lots of titles and Kawasaki has none. And it isnt some vague, fuzzy, indefinable "oh, the TEAM is what makes them great". What is a team? A team is players. Players who are willing to sacrifice their own stardom to help the team get wins. And no amount of star power can provide that. Kawasaki and Urawa have far more famous stars and Id even go so far as to say, more pure talent. But they dont have any players like Ogasawara, Inoha, Motoyama, Nozawa, Iwamasa, and Aoki most of all - guys who dont care how much publicity they get as long as the team keeps winning.

    Anyway, I said Im not going to get drawn into a long discussion. You went into a long dramatic exposition claiming not to "get it" when there is talk of a Kashima bias. So what? You have practically no contact to the issue. You werent even in Japan during most of the time period we are referring to. Ive told you from a first-hand perspective that this situation exists. It is strong and apparent enough that even the mainstream press sometimes alludes to it. So whats not to "get"? By standing up and loudly declaring "I cant see the elephant in the room" when everyone who is in the room can see it, all youre really doing is making a deliberate provocation. Fine. You provoked me. Congratulations.

    But the elephant is still in the room, and nothing you say can change that.
     
  12. nsato

    nsato Member

    Oct 11, 2009
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    These certain people in the JFA need to grow up if they are still holding grudge on a coach who is not even part of them anymore.

    So what if the J League coaches want these players. I'm sure they would jump on to the likes of Tamada and Hashimoto as well. Would they want them on the NT if they were the coach of the NT? I'm not too sure.

    So you agree that individually, these players may not be as talented as the other players but are great team players. Since Oliveira and Okada play different brand of football, it would be difficult for 2/3 Kashima players to play for Okada and succeed by doing what they do for Antlers.

    I really shouldn't be talking on behalf of somebody else(sorry nipponbasse83) but he said you might be right that there is some people in JFA that doesn't like Kashima so he does see the "elephant." He is just saying that he doesn't think anti-Kashima bias is not the only reason that Uchida is the only regular and I'm sure there are people other than me that agrees with him.
     
  13. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    If Uchida were the only regular and Iwamasa was (and had been) the first defensive reserve for the past three years, while Ogasawara and Aoki were getting as many calls as guys with half their talent and people like not only Koroki, but also Sato (closely associated to Zico) and several other promising players were actually getting playing time, I would have no complaints.

    Indeed, to be perfectly honest I dont have many complaints, apart from Okubo and Tamada (you really think other teams want to sign Tamada? ... Seriously?). But that isnt the issue.

    Basse said (and made a big issue of) "I dont understand where this talk of a Kashima bias came from". Well. I just explained it. Everyone whose opinions and experience I respect is aware that it exists, and has said so at least indirectly (you can take that as an insult if you choose to do so). If your interest is just to pick apart points on a line by line basis, forget it. Ive said what I had to say.
    End.
     
  14. nsato

    nsato Member

    Oct 11, 2009
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Fair enough on the first 2 paragraphs but yea, I do think almost all of the J League teams would take Tamada on their team.

    "I dont understand where this talk of a Kashima bias came from" is the first thing he posted. Then you replied saying that you know people in JFA that confirmed this. So he replies saying that you may be right but there's probably more to it. Most of his last post doens't have anything to do with anti Kashima bias in the JFA. It's all about him expressing his opinion that Kashima players are no better than the current NT players. Then you go on to say that he still doesn't "get it" when he already admitted that you're probably right. So I think you're the one thats making a bigger deal about the anti Kashima bias since he's pretty much ended it already but you kept on going about it.

    Come on Matsu, last time I skipped a line, I was accused of skipping it on purpose because it didn't help my cause!

    I know you said "End" but you can respond if you want to. I'm not the type of person that'll say "I thought you weren't responding anymore." If you don't want to, that's fine too.
     
  15. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member+

    Jun 17, 2007
    Ichikawa, Chiba, Japan
    Club:
    Consadole Sapporo
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Wasn't that exactly what I wrote in my earlier post? I can't really see what was so fuzzy and vague about my explanation, but if you didnt see it then I apologize for that. But the bottom line is that we agree that the afore-mentioned Kashima-players might not be as talented as other players, especially most of the players in the NT, so I don't really see why you are making such a big fuzz about that. And as nsato says, Okada Japan and Oliveira's Kashima's playing style and philosophy are way too different, so its not necessarily true that those same Kashima-players would be able to do to the same on the NT. And about winning mentality and being able to sacrifice yourself for the better of the team, its not like its only Kashima that have players like that.

    Aoki is a good player yes, but this season it actually seems like he will be losing his place to Koji Nakata. Every teams needs a clean-up guy, but I dont really see that Aoki is any better than Gamba's Myojin, or for that matter Urawa's Keita Suzuki (atleast the 2007/2008-version of him).

    As for my opening line ""I dont understand where this talk of a Kashima bias came from, " I thought we had cleared that, but apparently not. And if anyone is picking apart or singling out points here it's certainly not me. And for the comment about gaining your respect, I dont really see what that has to do with anything. Do you think I replied to you because I want your respect?

    True, I wasnt in Japan, But i've been in and out of it the last couple of years, and I dont really feel I needed to be in Japan to understand the situation, especially not in the age we are living in with pretty much everything available on the internet anyway. Also, are you implying that because I wasnt in Japan at that time, that I dont know what is going on? Sorry, but I feel like I'm being patronized here.
     
  16. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Dont want to prolong this, but both of you have put words in my mouth that I never said. There is a HUUUUUUUGGGEEEEEE difference between being talented and being famous. Nakazawa is obviously more famous than Iwamasa. But more talented? Sorry. I seriously disagree. The numbers tell a very different story.

    Aoki, Nozawa, Ogasawara and Motoyama are hands down the most talented midfield in the J.League. I know that some people disagree, and theyre entitled to their OPINION. But the facts say that those players have won three straight titles, so youre gonna have a tough time proving otherwise. And every one of them is light years ahead of hacks like Yoshiyki Kobayashi, Yasuda, Mizuno, Hanyu, Yamagishi, Hosogai, Kota Ueda, and a host of others who have had NT starts in the midfield over the past three years.

    If asked to list their talent in order Id put Aoki and Ogasawara as joint first, followed by Nozawa and Motoyama, with the two exchanging positions some time around 2008, as Motoyama's back trouble and other factors interfered. Thats right. In terms of pure talent, and versatility, I rate Aoki as just as good as Ogasawara (or at least he was until his injury last year, which he still hasnt recovered from completely). Aoki isnt nearly as famous . . . but thats not the same thing.

    Your BS about "the team" is simply that - BS. Teamwork only goes so far. To have good team you need to have good players Put Aoki or Nozawa on any other team and they would be just as valuable.

    And just as unfamous.

    "Dull" and "unfamous" players are the heart of any good team. Ask Troussier, or for that matter Nishino, who both clearly recognize the value of an "unfamous" guy like Myojin. If you cant see the difference between quality and fame, then theres no point talking about it any further. I just wanted to make sure you didnt get away with putting words in my mouth that didnt originate there.

    And just to tie up the last loose ends . . .

    If that wasnt your point, then why did you post it. We wouldnt be having this discussion apart from that one comment, so if you think weve cleared that, simply make a clear statement- "I spoke without knowledge. Now that you have filled in the blanks for me, I withdraw my comment".

    I dont see you saying that. I see you moving the goal posts, and trying to shift to some other issue where you might be on more solid ground. Its pointless, because I responded ONLY to that comment. Nothing else. If youve now decided that you cant support the comment anymore, then why are you still talking? Dont get me wrong, youre free to discuss other issues, but they have nothing to do with your initial brash (and unsupported) statement, and thus dont interest me in the least. So why are you addressing these comments to me?
     
  17. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member+

    Jun 17, 2007
    Ichikawa, Chiba, Japan
    Club:
    Consadole Sapporo
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    I dont know how to multiquote so I have to this point by point.

    When did I ever mention anything about fame vs talent? I havent bothered reading through my previous posts, but I can't recall mentioning anything like that, and if something I said sounded like then I must have explained myself a bit too vaguely. And you are talking about putting words into someone's mouth?? The only one who has mentioned anything about fame vs talent here is you. Get a grip dude, and dont come with accusements you can't back up.

    Aoki,Nozawa,Motoyama and Ogasawara have not won the league three times in a row ALONE, so even though Kashima have won the title three years in a row doesnt automatically mean that they have the best midfield. Kashima's defence are obviously better than both Frontale's (when did I ever mention Frontale btw? again you are putting words into my mouth) and Gamba's ( that you can actually prove since Kashima has the best defensive record) , and as a TEAM Kashima has been better than anyone else the last years, but you have no proof whatsoever that those 4 are better than say Myojin, Endo, Futagawa and Lucas ( or Hashimoto). It is your opinion, and you backed it with a statement, but the bombastic " I am right" way you are presenting it are totally groundless. As you mentioned, people are entitled to other opinions, and to back up my opinion that Gamba's midfield are just as good as Kashima's I can say that Gamba have won The ACL and The Emperor's cup twice ( and didnt they won the Nabisco in 2007 as well?) over the last 3 seasons. And you mentioned that the J.League are biased towards Kashima, but then why over the last 3 seasons is the only Kashima-midfielder selected in the J.League Best Eleven Ogasawara in 2009? Endo was there every year ( has been since 2002).

    "Your BS about "the team" is simply that - BS. Teamwork only goes so far. To have good team you need to have good players Put Aoki or Nozawa on any other team and they would be just as valuable. "

    Again, you show your class by condescending other posters opinions. Is that the only way you know how to try and prove your point? And again you are wrong. When have I said that you dont need to have good players to be successful? But you can beat teams who are filled with talent with less-talented squads, if you have a smart coach who knows how to put a team together to make it function optimally. Come on, was South Korea more talented than Portugal, Spain and Italy in 2002? Was Norway the most talented team in the WORLD between 1993 and 1998? We actually topped the FIFA ranking and hardly ever lost a game, but that doesnt mean that Oyvind Leonhardsen and Stig Inge Bjornebye was better players than for example Didier Deschamps or Bixente Lizarazu. And why is it that Brazil have NEVER beaten Norway? Or what about Monaco and Porto in CL a few years ago? or Greece in Euro 2004? The latter example, as well as Norway's case, was PURELY team-work, but from what I have read in your previous posts you obviously don't pay attention to alot of football in Europe, so maybe that was new to you?

    You wrote:
    "Dull" and "unfamous" players are the heart of any good team. Ask Troussier, or for that matter Nishino, who both clearly recognize the value of an "unfamous" guy like Myojin. If you cant see the difference between quality and fame, then theres no point talking about it any further. I just wanted to make sure you didnt get away with putting words in my mouth that didnt originate there."

    I'm suspecting you are not fully reading my replies, cause didnt I mention that I rate Myojin as well? And as I wrote in the other NT-thread, using too many skillful playmaker-types on the NT isnt good. Okada could use Shunsuke, Kengo, Endo and Ogasawara, all four very good players, but obviously Japan would have been crushed against a physically strong team then, and it would be very easy to get past the midfield. I wouldnt mind seeing Myojin back in the NT, but I think Keita would be a better choice, if Keita can find back to the form he showed a couple seasons ago, prior to his injury. Aoki probably deserves a chance as well, but from what I have seen I prefer the two others. So yes, I recognize the value of of an "unfamous" player, infact my favorite players on Arsenal back in the days was Ray Parlour and Emmanuel Petit, and on other forums I have been one of few who have been defending Darren Fletcher's importance for Man Utd so don't come here and assume I don't.

    And for your final comment:
    If that wasnt your point, then why did you post it. We wouldnt be having this discussion apart from that one comment, so if you think weve cleared that, simply make a clear statement- "I spoke without knowledge. Now that you have filled in the blanks for me, I withdraw my comment".

    If you had read my entire post, instead of taking that one line out of context, perhaps you would have understood. Yes, I still dont agree with you on that being the only reason behind few Kashima-players being selected for the NT, and as I said in an earlier post you might be right that there is some bias against Kashima, but the way I see there is more to it than just that. As Nsato said, if that is the only reason why the Kashima-players are not being selected, then the people at JFA seriously have to grow up. And dont try to reply by saying I dont understand the japanese culture, and how tough it was for the whole nation to see themselves being humiliated on a world stage etc.

    If that was the only comment you responded to, then why are we having discussions about other topics as well? And why aren't you apologizing for the obvious factical mistakes you have done? If anyone is trying to move to more solid ground here, its you and not me.

    I intented to express my opinion on this forum without lengthy debate, but ended up being intensely scrutinized by an online football critic ( or what ever you call yourself), being patronized in the process in which I have but can't tolerate anymore. Obviously you know alot about japanese football, but the way you try to make it sound like you are the only one whose opinion are right are rubbish. I was a footballer at a high level in my youth, and have been a well-paid J.League correspondent ( unlike you I even got a journalist pass) for the last couple of years, so I know how the system works.
     
  18. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Read that again. Carefully.

    From the very start, I identified what I was interested in objecting to, from your statement. I never indicated an interest in talking about ANYTHING else. On the contrary I specifically said that I DIDNT WANT to talk about anything else, and each time you have tried to move the conversation to something else I have brought the issue back on topic, and repeated that this was the only point I was correcting you on.

    Yet youve persisted in trying to turn it into a long discussion of issues that arent worth discussing (at least from my point of view...because throwing out opinion and counter-opinion is not the sort of discussion I enjoy).

    And even after I told you in exactly so many words . . .
    and
    . . . here you are, still talking. And still trying to shift the conversation to some other issue or something else.

    Youve done this with a lot of other people in the past, so I know its not just me. If Ive been a bit "arrogant" its because I know your history, I said at the very start what I was talking about, made it clear that I didnt intend to discuss anything else, and yet here we go . . . another long drawn out discussion. :rolleyes:

    As for this:

    Unlike me?

    Wow. Talk about arrogant (and clueless, on top of that)

    If you cant see why I find that annoying, then Im afraid Im not inclined to apologise. Sorry to have taken up so much of your time. Dont worry, I wont make the same mistake again. :(
     
  19. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member+

    Jun 17, 2007
    Ichikawa, Chiba, Japan
    Club:
    Consadole Sapporo
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    To start with what you wrote last, here is something you wrote in another thread:
    If just a few more people can be convinced to contribute their articles to the RSN (whether cross-posted from your own blog or whatever) then Google News will start carrying links to those articles. The idea of a quarterly magazine is also a great one that I want to support and encourage. It would not be hard to produce and distribute it in .pdf form, so the cost of printing would be miniscule, and only required for those people who want to have a printed version (yet it still would qualify as a print publication). Once that happens, you should be able to get press passes to matches by identifying yourself as an RSN correspondent.

    As TRSN is only an online sports-site, and J.League doesnt allow journalists etc. from web-based only sports-sites, I assume that you dont have a journalist pass that will get you into J.League-games as a journalist. As for you actually being a journalist I have no knowledge of, and I see now that my comment in my earlier post can be read several ways. And I by no means wanted to attack your writing abilities, as I think those are some of the best there is around here. . Im writing mainly in norwegian for a scandinavian company, and I would love to have your writing and expressing skills in english as well.

    About the arrogancy, I was simply following your trail, and I think most of the people who have discussed with me in the past does not find me arrogant whatsoever. Naive maybe, but not arrogant.

    you wrote:
    Youve done this with a lot of other people in the past, so I know its not just me. If Ive been a bit "arrogant" its because I know your history, I said at the very start what I was talking about, made it clear that I didnt intend to discuss anything else, and yet here we go . . . another long drawn out discussion.

    Hah!
    A mere 2,5 months ago, around the end of last season, I precisely remember you telling me I should feel honoured that you even knew my nickname, and because you didnt hang out on this forum too much you often mixed me up with someone else (something around the lines of that). So that you now know my history I found very amusing.
    And can you name the persons I have done this with in the past?
    The only one I can recall is Gora, who I had some interesting discussions with over the last 2 seasons, but I highly doubt that I came out sounding arrogant back then. Perhaps Gora can clarify that if he cares to join in on our discussion.

    I know that you have a sort of arrogant way of discussing ( as I recall you have said that yourself earlier), and that is fine, but being that I don't think it gives you any rights to call someone else arrogant. I respect your opinions, but there are times I don't agree with them, and if I am arrogant because I post another opinion in what I will say is a civilized way then I wonder what does that make you?

    About what you wrote first, I feel we are repeating ourselves, as I have several times ( and even nsato) written my views on that, and since your first two answers you haven't brought anything new into that discussion apart from saying I am moving the goalposts and trying to turn the discussion into something else. So I think we should just drop that subject, as our opinions are clearly different. You might be right that the JFA are not selecting Kashima-players deliberately, but I choose to believe there is more to it, and I have tried to back that statement up several times.

    But I would have liked it if you actually bothered discussing those other subjects as well, especially since it is all so closely connected. And I find it a bit odd that you feel you can choose for yourself which subjects to reply on, while you expect other "rules" for the rest of us ( like in a former discussion where nsato forgot to answer one of the points).
     
  20. scotch17

    scotch17 Member

    Jun 15, 2008
    Entebbe
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Couldn't at least 3 of those be characterized less as anti-Kashima bias and more as Osim's hardon for JEF United bias ?
    I think Yasuda had a fair crack and did decently. He was an inspiring player that season. And I think now Nagatomo is also the correct choice. Oddly, it's the Kashima wingback - Uchida - who looks like one of the weak links at the World Cup level.
    While Kashima may have the best midfield in all of JLeague, that's also forgetting European based players like Naka and Hasebe. Endo equally deserves his spot. That doesn't explain the continual inclusion of Abe, or the total absence of a 3rd CB worth a damn (because Iwamasa never gets called up).

    But fundamentally couldn't this also have to do with Kashima's attitude towards NT and international competitions? I seem to recall you saying many times that Kashima doesn't care at all about ACL because it only hurts their chances in JLeague. I get the impression Kashima wouldn't be happy to give up 3-4 of their best players for NT camps and games all the time. I'm just guessing here, but that seems just as likely to me -- and perhaps something to do with a deteriorating relationship, if that is the case?

    Also, I am not in Japan either so everything I say can automatically be discarded as worthless and not worth addressing.

    Regards.
     
  21. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Basically youre addressing the issue from the same perspective as Basse. That is why I tried to clarify some points earlier, but he still doesnt seem to care to listen. And despite what he said halfway through the discussion - that "i might be right", then in his last post he has gone back to statements which are questioning this fact again. While nobody can prove conclusively that the JFA's anti-Kashima bias is the direct REASON for not calling up Antlers players to the NT, the fact that the JFA has a bias against Kashima is just that - a fact.

    As I tried to explain in my first post, the JFA - Kashima friction is not somebody's impression or some conclusion drawn from past NT callups. Its a feud which erupted immediately following the 2006 world cup, which was well documented at the time, and which people who were directly involved will confirm - usually off the record, but in very specific words - is true. You can argue about how STRONG that factor is in affecting NT choices, and still make a legitimate argument. However, as I see it, arguing that such a bias does not exist, or even MIGHT not exist is a bit like trying to convince me that man was created in 4004 BC, and lived along with dinosaurs until the flood killed them all. Sure, some people DO believe that, but Im not "sensitive" enough to let them have their "opinion". I tend to call people like that ignorant morons who refuse to listen to fact. Its not too much different here.

    Evolution is a confirmed scientific fact, and the JFA-Kashima feud is a documented piece of history. Now the argument that nsato started to make -- "How could people still hold a grudge all these years later" - is a legitimate discussion. I was half tempted to address this comment, but when Basse jumped in with his "dont tell me its because I dont understand Japan" defence, I decided not to bother. Because the fact of the matter is, if you think people in Japan dont hold grudges for years or decades, then Im sorry . . . you DONT understand Japan.

    I have two neighbors, both live less than 100 yards from my house. According to people in the neighborhood, they had a public argument about something a few years before I moved here (in other words, more than ten years ago). From the description, it sounds like it was a pretty minor matter. But the thing of it is, they both made each other lose face in front of the group. Today, they still refuse to even admit the other one exists. Ive been having a chat with one of them, and the other will pass by and Ill call to him and say a few things, but even though both say things to me, they avert their eyes and try to pretend the other one isnt there. Its funny sometimes because I have to repeat what one of them just said if I want the other one to respond to it, even though its obvious that he heard. . . . :rolleyes:

    Now any American or European would hear that story and say "My god, what are they.... in kindergarten, or something?" But the fact is, this is not so unusual. Ive encountered it many other times, and I know it is a common thing in Japanese society. Conversely, when Japanese people hear that Europeans kill each other because of which God they pray to, and what church they attend, they roll their eyes and say "My god, how juvenile! Are Europeans really that childish???" So its not an issue of "maturity", its just a question of what is normal in your culture.

    After the 2006WC, as anyone who was here at the time will recall, there was a huge outcry and the JFA tried to lay all the blame on Zico. It was very harsh, very cruel, and extremely personal. Both Zico himself, and the Antlers president at the time Mr. Suzuki, fired back with some very personal insults of the JFA, and since Zico is Zico, his side of the story got quite a bit of press overseas, which embarassed the JFA in the eyes of the FIFA community. Since then its like my two neighbors...... They would never admit publicly that there is anything wrong, and yet they stand there refusing to make eye contact and doing their very best to pretend that the other one does not exist.

    Until Oliveira's interview, there was no pressure from any other groups to call up Kashima players, though everyone who is associated with the JFA or J.League, and most people in the press as well, are quite aware of the situation. But after Oliveira made his comments, the press started to ask why Okada was not calling up Kashima players, and in order to save face, he had to start making a few more call-ups (also . . . its quite true that the "ban" never applied to people like Uchida, who had no past association with Zico).

    But even though Okada has called a few up in recent months, at least from my perspective it seems like he goes out of his way to avoid putting them into the lineup. If they never get to play, he can drop them before the WC and say "well, they never really proved themselves".

    Now, that last point was just my opinion, which is why I broke it into a separate paragraph. But everything above that paragraph is not my opinion - it is FACT. Ive heard this issue mentioned from multiple sources over the past three years, and there is no possibility of being wrong. The journalistic rule is that if four unrelated people who could not have prearranged their stories all tell you the same story, you can print it as fact. Ive heard this story from at least 7 or 8 separate sources, so its not speculation, its fact.

    So Basse, if youre reading this, Im sorry if you feel mistreated but I am just as rude to people who claim that God made humans 6000 years ago. There are opinions ("beliefs), and there are facts. And Im really not interested in listening to people drone on and on about their beliefs. I admit that I mixed my opinions in as well, in some of the earlier posts, and wish I had been less emotional and left those out. But thats a different issue.

    Until you are prepared to make a straight admission - "OK, I didnt know that fact, but now I do" - please dont use up any more of your valuable time writing a response. I say that honestly, not facetiously. Since I wont read any further posts from you on this thread that are not prefaced with such a statement, (and I freely admit I havent read some of your previous posts) Id hate to have you spend a lot of time crafting a response that I wont read.
     
  22. scotch17

    scotch17 Member

    Jun 15, 2008
    Entebbe
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    I'm not trying to argue that one does or doesn't exist.
    My viewpoint is that there is some kind of bias at work, and I accept your explanation of Zico. But I am/was skeptical of how much influence it has today and also skeptical of other factors influence.
    I am not trying to deny there is a bias. I am merely attempting to express my opinion in the proper conditionals.

    Some of the players you mentioned I didn't agree with for one reason or another -- but when you get down to it there's no reason Ogasawara or Aoki aren't called up every time when Abe is getting caps. Or Okada desperately tries to find a 3rd CB... and Iwamasa can't even get a call up.

    I was trying to ask a question on whether Kashima's approach to internationals would be a factor? I don't know. It's just a thought I had. You didn't really address that angle, but I take it from the rest of your post that you are ruling it out nonetheless.
     
  23. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    No, I didnt say that.

    When you start getting into the issue of "does so and so actually DESERVE a call-up", then youre moving into the realm of opinion. In my very first post I tried to make clear to Basse that there was a difference; that I wasnt interested in discussing the part that was opinion, only the part that was verifiable; and that I didnt want the discussion to degenerate into a long exchange of opinions.

    When you start asking questions about how MUCH it is due to the anti-Kashima bias, and how much is due to other factors, then I cant give you an answer because its all a question of your opinion. My only reason for getting involved in this discussion at all was that Basse made a very dismissive (and at least in my perspective, insulting) comment when he said "I dont understand all this talk about an anti-Kashima bias", and I wanted to make sure that nobody has any doubts about what is fact, and what is opinion.

    I myself have speculated that there are other reasons for leaving Ogasawara out, besides the fact that he is an Antlers player. He does have a reputation for being an "awkward" person in the locker room, and I can see why he might not be Okada's first choice. I suppose if you tried hard enough you could find reasons for other players as well. Your comment is as good a point as any other, as far as "excuses" go.

    But at the end of the day, its just very hard to accept that so MANY Antlers players were snubbed when so many other less likely candidates have been called up. When you already know the history of conflict between the JFA and Kashima, its hard to accept that this is is simply a coincidence and Okada just never got around to considering Kashima players. If Ogasawara (and nobody else) got ignored for an entire WC cycle, hey, that could be a coincidence and I would accept such an explanation without comment. But as you and I both know, thats not the case.

    I think the example of Iwamasa really clinches it. He has been in the J.League "best 11" or at least "best 22" every season since he joined the league. He scores more goals per season than Nakazawa, is more reliable in the tackle than Tulio, and has better statistical ratings than EITHER Nakazawa or Tulio. Not to mention he has been on the league champion team for three straight years. Yet he has only one cap in his entire career :confused:. By comparison, Okada gave Terada (who even Frontale fans cant stand) five appearances and Takagi (who S-Pulse fans used to laugh at) seven appearances. He also tried Abe, Konno, Minowa, and two or three others as possible centre backs over the past three years. But it wasnt until the press asked him DIRECTLY to explain why he refused to call Iwamasa that Iwamasa finally got his first call-up. For me, that can only be explained by one possibility. :rolleyes:
     
  24. Viking-KC

    Viking-KC New Member

    Jan 15, 2008
    Re: Official 2010 Japanese NT Thread [R]

    Where is this game tonight? I don't recognize the stadium.
     
  25. OneiroPhobia

    OneiroPhobia Member

    Feb 10, 2010
    Re: Japanese NT @ ACQ 2011 [R]

    Toyota Stadium
     

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