Italia vs Germania quarter final

Discussion in 'Italy: National Teams' started by Marco Delvecchio, Jun 27, 2016.

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  1. TheAnswer1313

    TheAnswer1313 Member

    Dec 12, 2007
    Charleston, WV
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Not only did our B side play Ireland but the group was already won. We had nothing to play for while they had everything to play for.
     
  2. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Right, that history of starting slow, against small teams and barely squeaking into the knock outs, where only then did the effort begin.

    LOL

    Because history made these guys come flying out of the gate and dominating Belgium and Spain. Only history. Nothing else.



    I hope you're not making that comment in my direction.

    Just admit it Signore, him leaving abruptly pissed you off. It's pretty clear with the lengths you go to discredit him.

    He could have made some better decisions, like every other manager that fails, but the lengths you go to discredit him are extreme and reveal some other underlying issue, for sure

    Oh btw, for the "some" that will claim Rizzoli and Co. are responsible for your success, then I guess that would apply to Allegri too, making it redundant and unfair in giving him credit for essentially doing nothing more than Conte did in his tenure.
     
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  3. meazza

    meazza Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
  4. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Didn't the Turks also cover only half of the field for some strange reason?
     
  5. canzano55

    canzano55 Member+

    Jun 23, 2003
    Toronto
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Who cares? It was his first cap in a major tournament and the whole team was ********ed.

    Try watching a PSG game once in a while and you'll discover why he's the most sought after midfielder in world football outside of Pogba.
     
  6. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    The premise that there was NOT better talent at home is completely and totally wrong. Conte is a master motivator but you have to buy into his scheme. That kind of inflexibility can catch up with you and it did once again here.

    Calcio in the end is about skill. Why do you think we struggled to get the ball through midfield against Germany? There simply was not enough skill in the middle of the park to do so. Gabbiadini, Berardi, Jorghino, and Saponara and miles and miles ahead of Zaza, Immobile, Motta, and Sturaro from a skills standpoint.

    Anyone who has ever seen Gabbiadini play knows that he has great touch, speed on the dribble, and a lethal left foot. He's on another planet compared to Zaza and Immobile and frankly Higuain had to have the best year of any Serie A striker (maybe ever) in order to keep Manolo on the bench.

    Berardi brings something this side lacks...speed, height, and skill all in one. How useful might that have been in the second half vs Germany.

    Saponara was the best midfielder in Italy bar none for about 2/3rd of the season. He dipped in form at the end, but he got ZERO chance by Conte because he was so obsessed with Giac and Sturaro.

    As for Jorghino, I probably don't rate him as highly as some of you do, but he's certainly a huge step up from Motta. Thiago is a fckin ZOMBIE on the field.
    ---

    And there you have it....Conte failed to develop and integrate the truly talented Italians into the team and by June of 2016 it was too late to toss them in (although arguably he still could have tried). That meant he only had SCARPONI left for the deep reaches of the Euros and it cost him.
     
  7. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Maryland
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    You can repeat that as many times as you wish. It will not make it true. I was never a fan of Conte.
     
  8. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Maryland
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    It was too late to toss those players by June. Then again, he tossed in Florenzi, Sturaro, Eder, Parolo, Bernardeschi and El Shaarawy in the end. Add Giaccherini to that list as he was only used for one qualifier. So it is not as if Conte took to this tournament a group of players he had been using over and over again.
     
  9. gumbacicc

    gumbacicc Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    USA
    Your argument presumes that Conte had other world class talent at his disposal. He didn't. Who are these creative MFs that would have drastically changed our fortunes in this tournament?
     
  10. gumbacicc

    gumbacicc Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    USA
    So a Napoli benchwarmer, twos stars for a provincial sides, and an above-average MF for a second-tier side would have changed our fortunes. Got it.
     
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  11. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Maryland
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Change fortunes, eh. Change style and ability to push the ball forward. Likely. Does it matter if the non-world class player is the type who runs and chase or the type has some ball control? It is not as if it needs to be one or the other but Conte took only the former.
     
  12. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    Gumba,

    Gabbiadini has been behind the most prolific striker Serie A has seen years. He's not warming the bench at Empoli. He also has the best gol per minute ratio of any Italian over the last 2 years. He plays...he scores. You can't tell me you watch Manolo play and think Zaza or Immobile have more talent?

    As for Berardi and Saponara, those provinciale were better than some of the big city teams. Sassuolo finished ahead of Milan and Lazio and Empoli was only a couple spots back in 10th place. When we couldn't string 2 passes together through the German midfield, it might have been nice to have people comfortable over the ball.

    Instead, I had an image in my head as I repeatedly saw our midfielders lose the ball vs Germany....their control of the ball reminded me of a golf ball being spiked on a cement driveway. LOL
     
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  13. gumbacicc

    gumbacicc Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    USA
    That Gabbiadini plays behind Higuain doesn't explain why he can't start in another role. He can play as a striker or an inside forward. If he was so great (1) Juve would likely have held onto him and (2) he would find a starting role ahead of Insigne or Callejon. Gabbs isn't a bad player. However, let's not make him into any world beater.

    No one ever made the argument that Zaza or Immobile are more talented than Gabbs. However, Conte apparently thought they fit his system better than Gabbs did. Football isn't about assembling the XI most talented players. The Atleticos and Leicesters of the world have proven that.

    What you aren't considering is that the work rate of Conte's squad actually kept us in games against more talented opposition. While we agree that Berardi and Saponara are more talented than some of the guys that Conte brought, they aren't more talented than Belgium, Spain or Germany's players. If you think that we were going to play this beautiful game and outclass our adversaries, you are significantly overrating our players, and underrating our adversaries.

    While the technical ability of our players left something to be desired, you discount that we held the world champions to one goal for 120 minutes, and it took a lottery to knock us out. Considering the talent levels that the respective sides had at their disposal, that was very good under the circumstances.
     
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  14. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    Gumba,

    I think the best teams are ones that mix workhorses with talented players. I loved Parolo's effort versus Germany. Epic. Heck, Sturaro was actually not bad either. Giac is Giac. But, in the end, you have to be able to beat the other team when they are pressing you like that. If you don't, they won't respect you and they will keep doing it.

    Germany pressed us well into our own half because they knew we didn't have the skill in the middle to pass it around them. The threat simply wasn't there.

    That's my point. Conte left himself no room for error when his most talented MFs on the ball, Candreva and DDR, got hurt. All he was left with were workhorses. A Jorginho or Saponara would have gone a long way in helping that midfield get out of that pressure.

    At the end of the day, the gap in talent between Italia and Germany is not as big as people make it out to be.
     
  15. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    #765 Calcio Pauly, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    How about Italy, this year?

    They didn't suffer from injuries, in the tournament alone?

    Never mind the pre tournament ones that we would have already gone in knowing about.

    So who were the world class players left at home, besides Pirlo, that would have scored goals with their eyes closed and in their sleep, and been easily incorporated into the team at the final minute?

    Do people still seriously believe that you throw 5-6 new faces together and have a team that can read each other immediately?

    How many tournament failures did the Germans go through with their current core of players before winning?

    Let's get a reality check here.

    With the arguments for Saponara, Gabby, Jorgi, and the rest, there's no doubting their touch on the ball but how are you going to integrate all those new faces just before the tournament?

    You can't.

    Conte does deserve some criticism for possibly not trying them more earlier.

    God forbid he didn't bring Bernard who had his chance vs Ireland where he did just that; play a bunch of somewhat new faces together with few game experience riveter and the end result is that they looked like crap.

    And don't give me that there was little motivation to do well, yes from perspective of not lining up your first team and giving them a rest, but the rest of those players definitely should be playing like they had something to prove and a spot to earn.


    The same reason they (Germany) struggled to get the ball through the midfield.

    This fits...

    You could have criticized elements of his game many times, but you were still pissed at how he left abruptly.

    He built that team for Allegri to tweak. Allergri is not a magician.
     
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  16. gumbacicc

    gumbacicc Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    USA
    You're presuming that had we started more technical players in Jorginho and Saponara, that they would have been able to give you the same defensively as the players Conte fielded. You can argue that if we start those two, particularly Saponara, that the Germans have even more free reign, and they score more than once.

    There isn't that much of a gulf in class if we had Candreva, De Rossi, Marchisio, and Verratti. We did the best we could under the circumstances. Everyone involved with this side can hold their heads high.
     
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  17. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Maryland
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Conte threw more than that with this edition. Problem was he used the same clone. Again, all credit to our Italian players who play with heart and are tactically sound. But against Germany, we played with two defensive midfielders and a runner as the central three. We had some success using our wings but that was rare. The game plan sucked and if not for Boateng having a brain fart, we do not make goats out of Pelle and Zaza as if they were the only reasons we did not advance to the semifinals.
     
  18. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    #768 Calcio Pauly, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    Here, I'll ask again

    That's why Low used the same plan.

    What sucked was that Germany didn't make the same mistake of coming at us with little regards for their defensive cover. But they saw it did nothing for Spain and still remember 2012.

    Buffon, Ozil and Schweini gave us the opportunity that those two ultimately squandered.

    In the end, it kills you that Conte proved that his tactics with an utterly depleted squad caused Germany to move away from their game and came within one kick of being eliminated. Not once can you admit that Candreva and DDR were sorely missed or that we got maximum performance out of minimal resources and pushed the best team in the world to the brink of elimination, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat :) and give Conte an ounce of credit, and you want people to believe that your criticism is purely objective?

    Whether Boateng made a bone headed play or not, we don't know what would have happened in the remaining 18 minutes. I suspect the team would have continued to go for it because they had no choice and we were putting Germany under quite a bit of pressure. Substitutions may have come earlier, who knows.

    He already adjusted after they scored, did he not, then adjusted again after we drew.

    Any criticism you have of his tactics would duly apply to Low, except Germany won.

    Get over it Signore. In this game it truly was a game of inches.

    And a big LOL at trying to absolve twinkle toes and Pelle for their misses.

    Pelle was shit taking Neuer. Fckn idiot! Step up and take your damn kick like a man and STFU. Could you imagine Balotelli doing that and the absolute shit storm that would follow? Pelle doesn't get a free pass.

    The only German player that I don't like because of his antics and whining was Muller, and he did nothing of the sort to Buffon, neither Ozil or Schweini before their misses.

    Instead we have Zaza with the ridiculous run up and Pelle for shit taking and then the weakest strike on the ball I've ever seen and you want to absolve them of any criticism?

    They deserve every ounce of ridicule.


    Notice how I don't mention Bonucci or Darmian? They missed. Neuer guessed right. Poorly hit, whatever, but the other two...vergogne.

    So if you want to stick to your position and only give the players credit for winning, then do the same for the one on one pk's that they hit with shame.

    And if the players are the only ones that carried this team then why do each of them have nothing but praise for Conte, his approach, preparedness, management, and so forth? They're all deluded and only you see it right?

    I'm bowing out of this one Signore. I love ya, old fella, so have the last words if you like. I know yous ain't gonna budge an inch on this.
     
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  19. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Maryland
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Did you have anything for me to read because in all honesty, that was damn long. Maybe I can get Sal to read it and text me the Cliff notes. Conte's had to stick to defensive tactics with a depleted squad because he did not properly put together a squad that would cover such contingencies. I have no idea why you have become a Conte fan boy all of a sudden other than you want to debate me for no reason. You can throw all of your theories you wish, bottom line is that this Italia is not a side that anyone wants to replicate in the near future. You hear that Ventura?
     
  20. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    #770 Calcio Pauly, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    Just saw this howler...


    Are you aware that none of those statements you just made follow any sequence of logic?

    So the players took us this far and deserve credit, except in Ireland game. Only then it was Conte's fault?

    When did you become such a hater? June 25 2012?

    So basically,

    Players credit when win
    Players no blame when lose

    Incredibly black and white and irrational.

    :laugh:

    There are always multiple reasons for wins and losses, managerially and in execution. I am dumbfounded I even have to be saying this.



    U got the debate you wanted. I basically ignored all the irrational Conte hate for weeks because it wasn't worth it, but you kept responding my responses to others because this is probably how you vent and get over your disappointments, by debating stubbornly. Like I said, let it go Signore.

    And Lol like father like son. Take your ball and run Falc. U win! :thumbsup:
     
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  21. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Maryland
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Are you aware that was a response to someone making the excuse of losing to Ireland because of the selection of B players? If you follow me as you do, you know that my philosophy about coaching is that they can do more harm than good. Thus my criticism of Conte.
     
  22. Nek Sanalet

    Nek Sanalet Member+

    Dec 30, 2013
    Club:
    AC Milan
    #772 Nek Sanalet, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    No they probably wouldn't have. But guess what, most of us figured Italy would of gone no further than the round of 16 anyway. And in the end, they only made it one round further. Someone can counter that we were a penalty or two away from making the semi's, but we didn't (and Germany was clearly superior). Were we all entertained? Sure. Did Conte help the national team move forward in any way towards the WC/future? That is the big debatable question. I think in the end the Azzurri just stalled for two years. Ventura basically has to do what should of been done after 2014 now. Conte is a very good coach, but he was not what the national team needed from 2014-2016. He didn't implement a long term plan that his successor could carry further, he just tried to win with his "time is now" tactics...with a team that was never going to taste victory anyway.

    I guess it comes down to philosophical differences. Some fans just want to see Italy go for it at all costs (no matter what state the squad is in). Deep down, while it was a joy watching Italy compete this summer, It just seemed inevitable that we would not raise the Euro Cup. And in that case, it would of been better to rebuild for the future with a multitude of promising young players getting caps/chemistry/experience. So yeah, personally I rather see possible stars like 21 year old Berardi, and 22 year old Belotti, over never will be's like 30 year old Pelle, and 29 year old Eder.
     
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  23. 5 post life

    5 post life New Member

    Jul 6, 2016
    Club:
    AC Chievo Verona
    I give the decision to calico Pauley on points.

    Seriously falc ******** off with your anti conte agenda. cp is right you're full of it.

    Conte did a splendid job had we have a full team we were going to the semis easily and a good chance in winning it.

    Forza Conte
     
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  24. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Falc is a good man, show respect. He no likey Conte for whatever strange reason, but Falc is OK!


    Now, this man has telekinetic powers.

    Who is he?

    He can move the ball with his mind.
    He helps smokers quit by yelling Basta!
    He is the coach of the coaches
    He is the King of the Kings
    He Shepherd's the weak through the valley of darkness.
    He is loved by all, except the Lord's of darkness who shiver in his presence and spread rumors in his absence.
    He walks on water.
    People call him Lord.
    He goes by the humble name Antonio.

    He is....
    I am....
    We are all....

    Antonio
    Conte

    [​IMG]



    - fanboy
     
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  25. 5 post life

    5 post life New Member

    Jul 6, 2016
    Club:
    AC Chievo Verona
    Conte must have did some of these guys blow up dolls doggy style or something: not happy.
     

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