I am going to make a very controversial statement: Isco is top 10 most technically gifted player to ever play the game and has a potential to get top 3. By that i mean dribbling, ball control, first touch and everything in that nature in overal. Better, than Iniesta, Zidane, Baggio, Cruyff, Messi, etc.
Because scored two goals against a crapy Italy? Lets see if he he can perform in Champions League. Because until now has done nothing in any big of this competition and even his games against Barca are always been average
He didn't just scored two goals today, he also humiliated Verrati with a sombrero and a nutmeg. Rewatch last season second leg semi final CL game against Atletico, he was the man the match.
In this moment Verratti is not in a great form. Has took a Red card in last match in Ligue 1 and he has played in a two main midfield with an old and static De Rossi. Was a 6vs2 in the midfield. Isco has played against Verratti in the Champions League 2015-2016 and i remember him doing nothing.
Isco is doing this every single game ever since he forced Zidane to change Real's system, after Bale's injury, to 4-4-2 with diamond in midfield. He hasn't changed it ever since and Real is playing wonderful football. Nevertheless even in those ocassional chances Isco got he was still briliant like his man of the match perfomance vs Atletico year ago, when Ronaldo scored a hattrick, etc. The guy is at top of his game and this game vs Italy is proving that. There were Asensio, Iniesta, Silva, Verratti, Insigne, all those great players on the pitch and Isco looked like at least two classes above everyone there. However i am not calling him top 10 player of all time, i am just emphasizing obvious by now, he is a technical genius and i can't think of many players that showed so much skill by the age of 25. He can dribble, he has a wonderful first touch, you could watch him all day long with that ball in his feet, so elegant. I mean look what he was doing at the age of 19: If Ronaldinho did this at his prime he would be worshiped as hell just for this. Only reason why this is controversial is because fans need years to acknowledge greatness. Well, i am giving you a prophecy right now. He will continue to be that good.
Highest Isco praise came from Italy's manager himself, who didn't hesitate to remind all how Real Madrid's jewel embarrassed Verratti & Co. pic.twitter.com/NRrwjxH4zh— M•A•J (@UltraSuristic_) September 3, 2017
"I suffered a lot against Isco," Verratti said in the mixed zone. "I was taken aback by his performance. Not even Messi has come close to that level. "When I saw his nutmeg, I felt like standing up and applauding too." Isco's technical ability remains the same- what he has improved a lot in this past year is on his vision and decision making. He now knows when and who to pass to, does not hold on to the ball for too long and knows when to take a shot.
Imo what separates Isco from someone like Iniesta is end product and directness. Having said that, I think he still needs to prove himself on consistent basis to be regarded better than some of those players mentioned. It is one thing to play very well when you are not the main guy or one of the main guys. I think this season Isco will finally be depended on like the likes of Modric, Marcelo, and Ramos which will elevate his status more.
I am not arguing he is better player than any of them. He is not, yet. But talking about his technique, in 5 years time we will be praising this exact period as one of the finest techniques to ever grace the game (perhapse not this moment if he improves it even further). People tend to be late with praises, for example back in 2011 minority would put Messi as top 3 player of all time with Maradona and Pele, now majority will have no doubts that he is top 3 player of all time and when you ask them what was Messi's peak, they will tell you 2011. This is happening all the time, once player declines then they start to appriciate greatness. That's similar to the thing talked about in thread "Does retirement overrate?". I am just giving you a warning that eventually Isco will be put in that group of player, top 10 technically most gifted players. Although his end product hasn't been consistent over the years yet (but only for a year max), his technical abilities remind at very top level throughout his whole career. If you don't believe go watch youtube videos, he is doing stuffs that no other player in the world seems to be capable of since 19. It's only matter of time when he starts to be appriciated. I mentioned on plenty of ocassions that Real will win everything this season again and i truely believe this is going to be his season, plus Spain has wonderful chances in WC, they are playing great and we have seen last night who was the main man on the pitch for them. This could be his year of success just like 2010 was for Iniesta. It's very likely in my opinion that Isco at the end of the season establish himself as the best Real Madrid player.
After what I saw yesterday why not. If he becomes more consistent he will reach Iniesta's level. And if he adds more end product to his game he will surpass Iniesta.
It is very likely that the 2010s will be remembered as a very technical period in the history of the game. You have to thank Spanish football for that. Pretty much every elite team now revolves around technique. Barcelona paved the way, Madrid copied them to great success. Even Bayern Munich is a very technical team now. I don't know if the physical prowess of the English teams will overcome them anytime soon. All of Man Utd, Liverpool, and Chelsea are still very athletic teams, even if replacing Costa with Morata makes the latter move towards more of the technical side. Praises are not late. Messi was already regarded as the world's greatest by 2011, but he wans't considered a GOAT candidate until much later, and rightly so. People only appreciate greatness once players decline because players need a body of work to be appreciated. The history of the game is full of players whose peak match the GOATs, but they're not GOAT worthy due to lack of consistency. Look at Ronaldinho, his peak was easily superior to Zidane, but Zidane is rightly rated more highly due to his consistency. Even if it's true that Isco is currently one of the greatest technician of all time, he would still need to prove himself year in year out, just as Xavi and Iniesta have done. There is no guarantee that he will. Isco could suffer from a horrific injury this season and be plagued by injury for the rest of his career like Ronaldo did.
That's completely false. Messi had years of success even before 2011. Treble in 2009 being clearly the best on the pitch, broke R9 scoring title in 2010, something that hasn't been done in 13 years at the time, 4 goals vs Arsenal in Champions league, multiple of hattricks, etc. That's reasonable amount of time to conclude that he will continue to do that and that it's not coincedence. It's just that people still weren't used to Messi being in goat conversation at the time. (and don't fool yourself, Ronaldinho had never performed closely to the standards of Messi in 2010/11, not even those seasons before or after.) And btw, Ronaldinho has just fairly recently been praised as the greatest of all time. At the time, just like in Messi's case, barely anyone took it seriously. If you really think that people care so much about longevity asnwer me this question, Ronaldinho or Neymar on the greatest of all time list, choose? Neymar is arguably more consistent over the years already, well barely anyone will choose him over Ronaldinho, why? Neymar is also the one who has never been put on all time list and in 5 years time we will perhapse talk about this very moment as his peak and being top 10 of all time... he is the best example atm, of delayed appriciation.
Is R9 forgotten because of his horrific injury? No it remains the most interesting "what if" in football history and some fans go to such extreme to say that he would have 2 times better career of Messi and they place him in number one as the greatest of all time. Isco already proved year in year out that he is an excpetional technician, how he performs in overal has nothing to do with it. THAT will determine how comparable he is to Iniesta and Xavi on all time list in overal, but about technical gift, there is nothing he needs to prove anymore. (i seriously encourage you to watch his videos, he is doing it for yeaaaars). It's just like the case of Neymar right now.. it takes time that people get used to that statement, and they will eventually.
If Isco gets injured today, nobody will talk about him 20 years from now. I don't know how you can compare the two, since it's completely beside the point. R9 was already WPotY when he got injured. My point is, until Isco actually keep up/improve for the next 5 years at least, he's a nobody in the GOAT ranking, which is what we're discussing in this thread.
It is not delayed appreciation. Messi in 2011 was already regarded as the greatest AT THE MOMENT. He was not a GOAT contender, and nor should he have been. It's only right that he's a GOAT contender 5 or so years afterwards, because he has a body of work. Ronaldinho was regarded as world's best by around 04-05. He wasn't a GOAT candidate though, and the conservatives were proven right. He fell off. Neymar could very well be having his peak right now. Doesn't matter. What he's done so far is not enough to include him in the GOAT discussion. Maybe in 5 years time, we can talk about it. CR7 wasn't part of the GOAT discussion either when when left Man Utd, even though he displayed one of the highest peaks ever. Looking back, some would consider that period part of his peak, but he needed to show the world he was capable of doing it, and even improving on it, year after year, before he's part of the discussion. Now, he has a legitimate claim for top 10 all-time despite declining, due to the body of work he has accumulated. Recognising someone who has had 3-4 years at elite level as one of, if not the World's best, but not including them in the GOAT discussion is not delayed appreciation. It's appropriate.
That's fine as a prediction, but as an actual statement, it was premature at the time. No way did Messi achieve enough by 2011 to be considered equals to the likes of Pele and Maradona.
He will not be remembered because you are confusing two important things. I am not claiming Isco is top 10 of all time in overal, but in specific segment of the game, technical giftness.. even tho Ronaldinho lasted for way less than Cristiano and Messi he is still considered, at his peak, to be technically superior than both and that's what remains constant even after he declined. So your perspective is clearly wrong. And why do you assume that only your point of view of what correct in sense what is worthy to be named top 10 of all time? Not everybody is putting emphasize on longiviety as much as you do, and that's the up to opinion and irrelavant in this moment. Do you remember Okocha, will he be brought up from time to time in conversation for the best skillers of all time? Yes, definitely, especially by a bit more knowldegeable football fans (just like Garrincha is considering dribbling although he is inferior to Pele). The same case is with Isco right now, except that Isco is still only 25 and he has the case to become even greater than Iniesta, Zidane, no matter how unlikely that is atm, .. but that doesn't matter after all. He is already widely recognized as technical genius and with time that status will only grow further. He said this: "... and i think we are always nervous about calling people we are currently wacthing, younger 23, that he is the best palyer ever, but we shouldn't be, we should admit what we are seeing in front of our eyes. This is the special talent who maybe is the best player that's ever been seen." If anything he is suporting my statement that people don't appriciate the greatness enough at the time greatness is being shown. And as i said, only minority of fans who are brave enough to appriciate greatness immidiately are saying that.
That's your opinion on what it means to be the greatest ever or top 10. You value longivity a lot, but as i said, this is not about overal greatness, but greatness of one part of the game. Why should we wait to acknowledge Isco's technical briliance he is demostrating week in week out on the football pitch RIGHT NOW? What difference does it make if he continues to play like this for 5 or 10 years, he has already shown this kind of briliance for long enough to realize that it isn't coincedence. There are only few players in history i could mention that have shown more technical briliance by the age of 25 than Isco. That fact alone is enough to me.
Meh. Fair enough. I thought we wanted to discuss Isco's chance of breaking into the all-time list. Maybe top 50 or something. If the focus is purely on his technique, then no argument from me. I don't watch enough Madrid games per year (only 15-20 full games a year, mostly El Clasicos, Madrid Derbies, and UCL) to judge. You seem pretty convinced of his top-10 technical ability anyway.
Convinced from my football perspecitve and knowledge of the game. I don't know every single player in history, hell i don't know a lot about football history, that's the reason why i opened this thread in first place, for someone to tell me, "no, you are wrong. Players xyz are better than Isco therefore he is not top 10" and in that way start some productive discussion and hopeful we all learn from it. From very top of my head i am sure that Maradona, Ronaldinho, Neymar are technically more gifted players than Isco, i have many debateable players, but for those i am pretty sure.
Cassano retired, so Isco's technique and first touch is the best in today's game. His ball retention is also the best in today's game.
For that reason he is on the bench this current half of season because Real Madrid needs verticality not retention. So ... I'm going to answer the initial question ... Isco I think is not in a top 500 list of all time ... about most technically gifted player I can see at least one hundred of players better than him.