I can complete it with time, but let's do a projetction here, if he had the same assist/match ration of these competitions in the Campeonato Carioca he would have more ~35 assists so, He would have in 4 years (1979, 1980, 1981, 1982), 231 Matches, 219 Goals and 67 Assists between Brazil (official matches) and Flamengo. An average of 58 Matches (57.75) with 55 Goals (54.75) and 17 Assists (16.75) per year. Flamengo/Brazil Goals per year = 134 (134.5)
Some quotes: ELO GAME RESULTS ==> Zico 1983/1984 (his best rated league season in Italy) with Zico + 40 Points in 24 Matches (1.67 Points per Game) Before his injury +54.5, 20 Matches = (2.72 Points per Game) without Zico - 23.4 Points in 6 Matches (- 3.9 Points per Game) ==> Maradona 1984/1985 (his best rated season in Italy) Maradona +33.5 in 30 matches (1.12 Points per Game) ==> Platini 1983/1984 (his best rated season in Italy) with Platini + 1 Point in 28 Matches (0.04 Points per Game) without Platini +4 Points in 2 Matches (2 Points per Game) Source http://clubelo.com/ Observations: ==> Zico improved the poor Udinese, that without him was struggling big time. ==> Platini had a superteam and he had level to be part of this supertime, but without him the team still surpassed their own positive expectations even more than with him on the pitch. ==> We have no basis for Maradona though, but because he had his best ranked season and also 65% of involvement in his team goals (including wide assists) he hasn't really improved the Napoli as much as expected by looking at it closer, also as we said we have no parameter for analyzing the team without him, it may even be that the rest of team could exceed their expectations for themselves, I don't know. Also we were comparing the ratings of Guerin Sportivo (4 sources combined) or those of DBS Calcio? The Juventus 6.43 average x Udinese's 6.34 is from DBS Calcio (where Zico had clearly advantage on Platini). Probably the rate of Guerin Sportivo (4 sources combined) for both teams is at least somewhat different. Btw, I agree with your affirmation that both were top five of their generation, along with Maradona (if you see him in the same generation), Falcão and Rummenigge. Zico Best Player of Brazilian League - 1974
I think the analysis is fair enough in highlighting Zico's positive impact mate, but a bit meaningless for Platini - the two games he missed being a 2-0 win over Catania who finished bottom, and a 1-0 win over Fiorentina gained with a last minute penalty (Fiorentina also without Antognoni although he was out for a longer period and they still did maintain their form enough to finish 3rd). If Platini plays in those two home games, is it likely Juventus get worse results? It seems unlikely to me to be honest.
I don't know. But can you understand that I didn't go into projections there? More or less, I just compiled the data presented by ClubElo website (which can be verified). But it's always interesting to know the 'holes', anyway.
Sure, yeah. I didn't really look into the reasons for Juve's Club ELO seeming not to have risen much at all over the rest of the season (which seems strange at first thought) but yes I think the low sample size allows those two games he missed to take on a significance with the Club ELO because they won them both (with Fiorentina perhaps adding a decent amount of points due to challenging towards the top of the table?). I suppose what we have to conclude is that the changes in Club ELO can't be used to extrapolate and tell us that Platini was a negative influence or something on Juventus (which goes against the accepted narrative very much of course).
"Pré-Peak" Zico (Underrated, probably he had a better team play and he was more mobile and agile): 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978: 248 Matches, 175 Goals (139 Non-PK Goals) Flamengo/Brazil Goals: At Least 501* (The Final Ball) Zico 1974-1982 = 479 Matches, 394 Goals (323 Non-PK Goals) + Estimated 67 Assists from 1979-1982 period + the assists he had in those 248 Matches between 1974 and 1978. Flamengo;Brazil Goals: at least 1049 (+ Flamengo Goals of 5 Matches). I would guess Zico had around ~50% (47-53) direct involvement in all these goals. Just for comparison Cristiano Ronaldo had 49-50% direct involvement in Real Madrid goals in his time (9-year period as well). If you include 1983 from Flamengo and his first season at Udinese where Zico was still World Class: 541 Matches, 438 Goals (360 Non-PK Goals) plus a lot of friendlies with Brazil, Flamengo and Udinese (they played a lot of friendly matches that time), 10-year period.
Just for comparison here (confirmed) 51.6% Direct Involvement, 44,67% Excluding PKs. In the Carioca he had - very probably - still higher % in that period.
Then I ask you, what a player had in a 10-year period in the 1960-2010 times, an average of 54 matches per year, 44 Goals (36 Non-PK Goals) and let's says 15 assists with more or less 50% direct involvement in his team goals offering a all-rounded offensive contribution (skills, role, participation etc) as AM/IF/SS (even as CM/CF) commanding at his peak a team that has become the best in the world (80s Flamengo)? Very few players.
People here have solidly entrenched views (almost indoctrinated)and will not change no matter what evidence is put forth I've read all of this and a lot of it is true and some of it mental gymnastics (stats projection is guess work at best and you admit this) As for your question regarding who was able to demonstrate such a level of involvement over a period of 10 years Not many and this is why zico is unanimously considered one of the greatest players of all time From the 1960 till now only (Old)Ferenc puskas pele Eusebio Johan Cruyff Gerd muller Zico Cristiano Ronaldo Lionel Messi Were able to be involved in such a large proportion of goals over an extended period Maradona doesn't appear on this list for 3 reasons 1.)He was never as good a finisher as any of them 2.)His career was interrupted for various reasons and as a consequence his form fluctuated 3)He played a deeper role particularly in the latter part of his career behind two strikers at napoli Zico was a greater scorer than Maradona Period Still though zico played as striker in 83/84 and scored a negligible amount of open play goals (non penalty and non free kick) He was definitely a striker here with a disproportionate amount of goals to assists (a real playmaker as Cruyff had more assists than goals in Barcelona Maradona also had more assists than open play goals in napoli) Zico was between a forward to AM As Lionel Messi (first half of his career as false 9 and second as free roaming AM) Or Hagi (forward in staue bucharest and became a god level playmaker in the second half of his career) Maradona was already in Argentina (77-81) and spain (82-84)a half playmaker/half forward who became a AM(orthodox) as early as 1986 Zico was closer to Messi/hagi/ronaldinho in positional sense then he was to Maradona/stojkovic/platini
Some of it is still only mental gymnastic but it is not far from truth imo, like most of my projections. Romário as well, he had according the Spanish Wikipedia and the Final Ball at least 48% of Direct Involvement in his team goals at PSV. For Barcelona, Flamengo, Vasco (period where he was still a World Class) can't be so different. He also had 55 Goals + 15 Assists in 70 Matches for Brazil which is very considerable. I can consider Maradona and even Platini as very involved players in their team goals (not sure if close to 50%) and with a well defined peak (Platini 1976-1986 for example)... I am waiting, for example, for someone who can guess the direct involvement of Platini in Nancy-St Ettiene and in Juventus plus France, seems that he was very involved. About position Zico plays deeper, in general, than these names imo: Old Puskas, Eusebio, Muller, Romario. The only who played deeper with almost 100% sure is Platini (who again I think was very participative in his team goals), Cruyff after 1974 too (but well, most of Cruyff's fame was as Complete Forward from Ajax until 1974 period). Maradona not played as deeper as Platini imo. Zico played more as a forward in 83/84 yes, but he had 19 Goals (15 Non-PK Goals) and 2-3 assists (Vegan said it few times, not checked) of 42 Udinese Goals when he played in those 24 matches, so a high contribution as well. But the interesting thing to note is that even with this disproportionality between goals and assists he still managed to have a considerable impact on his team, at the level of very few players had, when on the field (Eloranking proves this fact). That should mean some things that numbers do not show. He delivered results, even out of, imo, his peak. He delivered positive results in all his peak, even with Brazil (biggest point % of all Brazilian big players of that time, Sócrates, Falcão, Cerezo, Junior, Rivellino if you want). To bad that doesn't exist the compilation of all Zico carrer matches tho (even worse in his Italy time). But let's say: Zico is along with Pelé, Cruyff, Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo as one of the all-rounded Forwards/Attackers with ~50% Direct Goal Involvement* in a 10 year-period (Pelé being the most sucessuful in his NT and Club combined imo by a good margin).... including (more frequently classified as strikers) "Old Puskas", Eusébio, Gerd Muller and Romário. *and perhaps with Platini and Maradona
Yes, Zico has few assists in his first season, mostly operating as the main target man with Franco Causio and Edinho as main providers. People overlook that Franco Causio was a darn good player in his heyday for Italy and a former top rated Guerin Sportivo player of the season player. It was already addressed by myself that according to Edinho, with the arrival of Zico, Udinese was a serious contender to challenge the Scudetto, so the premise that they were some mediocre squad in Serie A is bullocks. They also had the financial power to acquire Zico's services when other smaller market teams couldn’t (Zico himself addressing in an interview that I own from that era that he moved for the money to play in Italy and deviated from playing in Spain due to the violent nature of its league). Now no one ever disputed Zico performing well in his first season at Udine, but the 1983-84 season was a rare high scoring year for the generation in Serie A (the highest of the decade with a 2.38 goal per average) and defenders were also caught off guard with the new star’s arrival of style of play and his cheeky free kicks. The following season defenders had already figured him out and injuries and a lower average of goals in the league derailed Zico’s impact in Italy. He was also getting older though.
In the 84-85 he played deeper and had many troubles with injury, he still improved the Udinese tho. 4.7 Positive Points: Btw you are talking he played as striker or as the most advanced player on the pitch, but do you have the complete footage of at least five Udinese's matches of that season? I'm curious to see to what extent this is true. In many goals scored by Udinese that season, he was indirectly involved, as for example the defender cut the ball from him and the ball falls into goal position for another Udinese player. That happened more than once.
It’s well-established by Guerin Sportivo that Zico in 1983-84 was classified as an attacking forward alongside Virdis and Pradella since the central midfield was packed with natural midfielders (Mauro, Causio, Miano, Marchetti and De Agostini). The video footage of that time only consists of highlights with the odd game that surfaced like Udinese-Napoli 1984-85.
Argentinians: Zico was a forward, Maradona was a midfielder Brazilians: Zico was a midfielder, Maradona was a forward Guerin Sportivo poll asking people involved in Italian football 1980, different publications in Brazil Conclussion?
The icebreaker is from the Italians (Guerin Sportivo) 1983-84 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/se...-player-ratings.2085771/page-14#post-36988792 1984-85 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/se...-player-ratings.2085771/page-18#post-36998151 1986-87 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/se...-player-ratings.2085771/page-44#post-37109404 Edit: @schwuppe but where is your Argentinian sources ?
I’ve only seen highlights, but how to people who saw them both play compare him to Socrates and rivelinho?
Good question. Zico is a more polarized player, a fan favorite in many ways. But it’s not far-fetched to claim that Rivelino is in the same class (for some he was better). With Socrates it’s another matter, but the reality is the real challenger to Zico in Brazil was Reinaldo, but for controversial reasons he’s been shunned aside.
Interesting ...he played alongside Socrates for Brazil but I’d suggest they complimented each other rather than mirrored each other .. Zico was a classic number ten player .. not very tall , low centre of gravity and dynamic. He scored about 250 goals as I recall .. I remember Sócrates playing centre midfield, very tall and languid ,slow living with excellent technique- great header of the ball as well - don’t really associate Sócrates being anywhere near as prolific as Zico -scoringwise Rivelinho I have memories of him being in the left forward position , dynamic , extremely strong with a left foot like Rivaldo .. It’s a long time though
IIRC you've posted some El Grafico Team of the Seasons and Maradona is listed as a midfielder. My point is there is no clear answer to the question which position they play. Here an attempt to classify player roles based on their stats: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/diego-maradona-1986/ Zico WC78: Goal Scorer WC82: Elite Goal Scorer WC86: Goal Scorer Maradona WC82: Dynamic Playmaker WC86: Dynamic Playmaker WC90: Dynamic Playmaker WC94: Ball Progressor Found this "Player of the Decade" voting in Placer (Date: 28.12.1979) 1. Zico 7 2. Rivelino 5 3. Ademir da Guia 2 . Socrates 2 5. Paulo Cesar 1 . Falcao 1 . Jairzinho 1 So it looks like some (I'm not familar with the voters to be honest) preferred Rivelino, although Zico's career was far from finished.
Robben 2014 and Hazard 2018 are also labelled as 'dynamic playmakers', as is Lozano 2018. Just as quick comparison...