Is zico the greatest attacking midfielder of all time?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Sep 26, 2018.

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Is zico the greatest attacking midfielder in football history

This poll will close on Feb 11, 2046 at 1:24 PM.
  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. No

    28 vote(s)
    77.8%
  1. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018

    Non-PK Zico 1971-1983
    Campeonato Carioca 0,703/2,134 (0,329)

    Non-PK Messi 2009-2018
    La Liga 0,932/2,804 (0,332)
     
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  2. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
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  3. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    In Brazil, where would you say Zico now ranks among Brazilian players past and present?
     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    The first is Pelé, so between 2-4 normally w/ Garrincha and Ronaldo.
     
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  5. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    We will never know if Maradona was really better than Zico, all we have to analyze individually is: Zico with 31-32 years in the Italian league with a lot of injuries against 24-year-old Mardona at his peak. Which player is really at his peak at age 31? Most of the players have their peaks between 23 and 29, especially when they are 25 and 26 years old: https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa0021#jsa-2-jsa0021-g006 examples now: Cristiano Ronaldo's peak 2007-2014 (22-29), Messi's peak 2009-2015 (22-28)... In previous decades I guess, longevity was even lower.

    Based on all studies, it is OK to say that Zico had his peak in 1979 (1975/1976-1982), and in 1978 if is true that he had a average WC (although with a series of particularities) it is also true that he was injured for most of that year.

    In fact, we will never know how effective it really was at its peak because we don't have advanced metrics and statistics of that time. But France Football had Zico with great esteem in the WC82 (29 years) and the several Italian publications also had it with Zico at 31 years.

    PD: Note that Zico was elect the best Player in the Brazilian League (which was very strong at the time) with 21 years-old in 1974.
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    And for example Zico almost didn't played against Argentina in WC1978, the best player of South America in 1977.. (he just entered in the 67' https://web.archive.org/web/20110721202024/http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=50/results/matches/match=2196/report.html).
    But look at the beatiful pass for Roberto Dinamite here (2:17) and the half-opportunity created (3:20):



    Don't forget that Brazil was the only team that didn't lose in that World Cup opposite to Argentina:





    WC78 that had many suspicions of corruptions (as Zico's own goal canceled after the ball had already entered (one of the most ridiculous scene of all WC's), that own Batalla de Rosario vs Brazil where no one knows until today how no Argentine has been expelled, and the purchase https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-throw-key-1978-World-Cup-game-Argentina.html of the game against Peru that qualified Argentina for the final).. and even boycotts by great players of that time as Cruyff for example.

    The Maleta Blanca was strong in this WC. Very suspect.

     
  7. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #82 Tropeiro, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    Saying that Zico peaked somewhere between 24 and 29 (being World Class level between 21 and 31) is very close to reality (Maradona probably the same in Italy) imo and you can see this here:

    [​IMG]

    Note that Maradona had very high Goals/Match average when he played in Argentina and even Spain, but strangely he hadn't that average for the Argentine National Team different than Zico when he played in Brazil:

    Maradona for Argentina NT (1977-1982): 34 Matches/12 Goals

    Zico for Brazilian NT (1976-1983): 61 Matches/42 Goals
    and if you forget that 1978 year where Zico had a lot of Subs for strange motivations (since he was considered the best player in Brazil since at least 1976 w/ 23 years old, for many since 1974) then it would be 50 Matches/39 Goals.
     
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  8. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #83 Tropeiro, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    An interesting comparison would be between Cristiano Ronaldo and Zico, their trajectories... since I think Zico peaked between 24-29, this is 1977-1982 (even though he was also elect the Bola de Ouro in 1974 with 21 years old).

    Cristiano Ronaldo as probably almost all players also peaked somewhere between 2009-2014 imo (even though he was considered the best player in Premier League with 21-22 years and also considered world's TOP2 that year), I think he peaked in his first 5 seasons and the first half of 2014/2015 in the Real Madrid.

    Opta (whoscored) said that CR peaked in 2009/2010 (24/25 years).. advanced statistics and metrics could probably say the same as it says with the Actual Goals/Expected Goals metric, number of touches per game (more participation), key passes, dribbles..and all of it playing as Dynamic Forward Winger.

    Comparing Zico (past 30-32 years old) with Maradona (24-30 at his peak) in Italian League would be like comparing Cristiano Ronaldo in 2015/2016 (30-31 years) with Cristiano Ronaldo in 2009/2010 (24-25 years), one was at his peak, the other clearly out.

    Dynamic Cristiano Ronaldo at his peak according whoscored = 8,53 in 2009/2010...
    vs more one-dimensional Cristiano Ronaldo in 2015/2016 (w/ way less injury trouble than Zico had in Italy) = 8.02.


    Comparing even fit Cristiano Ronaldo at 30-31 (8,02) with peak Messi at 24, also his not coincidentally highest rating according OPTA (8,88) isn't fair, just as isn't probably fair the comparison between Zico's 1983-1984 w/ 30-31 years old with peak Maradona ratings/participation in the Italian league. They are 7,5 years apart.

    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/5583/History/Cristiano-Ronaldo
     
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  9. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Old highlight of Zico in Youtube.

     
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  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This was the first zico compilation I watched on YouTube close to 10 years ago.
    And to this day remains one of my favourite comps (I think it has something to do with the background music aswell as the stunning FKs and acrobatic goals )
    A lot of great compilations aren’t watchable because of the techno/house bull*hit music people play on them
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    In zicos own words his finest piece of skill.this is one of the most outrageous goals from any player (never mind zico)
    The only similar goal I’ve seen was by Edouard coridon for PSG (2004)


    even then zico’s was still more audacious (the timing of the run and effectively lobbing the keeper with a scorpion kick)
    Outrageous
     
  12. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    An interesting thing to note is that the three Argentines, often ranked as TOP 5 of all time (Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano), all played in Europe in their peaks, different than many Brazilians greats. How exactly this fact influences the perception of the people and the revisionists is something to be thought of/about, considered.
     
  13. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  14. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    I don't think Pele or Zidane were more decisive playmaker than Messi in World cup.
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    @carlitos

    Zico's peak was between 1974-1975 and 1982 imo

    Zico in 1983 already presented some decline from his 1982 form.

    For example, in 1982 he was ranked as the best player of Campeonato Brasileiro and the top scorer:

    [​IMG]

    In 1983 he was ranked as the 5º best player as Ponta-de-Lança (with just 2 matches left he probably ended around 8, he had 9 in the last match for example), but that wasn't enough for him to get neither the Bola de Prata nor the Bola de Ouro:

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    He's in my top three of all time ..

    Zidane , Zico then Eusebio .
     
  18. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Players ... not midfielders
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    Very well made and informative documentary style film on Zico in Portuguese but with English subtitles
     
  20. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I do have that on DVD.
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    In his most iconic time (1979-1982) he played as AM/SS/F9 most of the time.

    He had 215 Goals (~185 Non-PK Goals) in 231 Matches

    Only Brazilian League, Libertadores, Intercontinental and in the NT:

    90 Goals (~78 Non-PK Goals) in 108 Matches.

    Vasco, Flamengo, Fluminense and Bangu were probably good teams in the Carioca League too, that would add more competitive matches to this count.

    I need to check these games again and try to estimate more or less the number of assists (some will be missing for lack of description of the plays) and then estimate his direct participation in Flamengo goals.

    But,
    1979 was his best Carioca league season.
    1980 he was the topscorer in the league and Brazilian champion with Flamengo: http://estatico.globoesporte.globo.com/linha-do-tempo/
    1981 where he was the South American champion and the World Champion with Flamengo
    1982 where he was the topscorer, and the best player in the Brazilian League and Champion with Flamengo again.

    According the Soccerverse methodology, Flamengo was the best ranked team in the World (for 45 weeks) between 1981 and 1982: http://soccerverse.com/teams_and_trainers?team_id=clube-de-regatas-de-flamengo-brazil
     
  23. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I seem to recall Zico being known as the ‘white Pele’ on occasion
     
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  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #99 Tropeiro, May 27, 2019
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
    14 Matches, 11 Goals (9 Non-PK Goals), 5 Assists (* + 1 Pre-Assist). 1981 Libertadores and Intercontinental. Flamengo 27 Goals in these 14 Matches.

    Brazil 34 Matches, 31 Goals (23 Non-PK Goals) + 12 Assists by Lucas.. (no information about Pre-Assists, not really checked) Brazil 95 Goals in these 34 Matches.

    NT Team, Libertadores and Intercontinental 48 Matches, 42 Goals (32 Non-PK Goals), 17 Assists. His team Total Goals 122.

    1982 Brazilian League 21 Goals (19 Non-PK Goal), 7 assists (+ at least 2 Pre-Assist) 23 Matches Team Goals, Flamengo 48 Goals


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1982 Brasileiro, 1981 Libertadores and Intercontinental and 1979-1982 Brazil:
    71 Matches, 63 Goals (51 Non-PK Goals), 24 Assists (+ at least 3 Pre-Assists). His Team Goals (Brazil and Flamengo): 170.

    PD: 219 Goals (184 Non-PK Goals) in 233 Matches between 1979-1982 in fact.
     
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  25. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Brazilian League, Brazil Matches, Libertadores and Intercontinental 1979-1982
    110 Matches, 94 Goals (77 Non-PK Goals) + 32 Assists (+ some pre-assists, about 5-10 just a guess).
    His Team Goals (Brazil and Flamengo) = 244


    Carioca League in 79-82 period.
    121 Matches*, 125 Goals (107 Non-PK Goals) + ?? Assists
    His team goals (Flamengo) in these 121 Matches: 294


    *121 according The Final Ball and Flaestatisticas (instead of 123 of Wikipedia, he played 22 Matches in the Carioca League in 1980 instead of 26 and 23 in 1982 instead of 21)

    Overall are 231 Matches, 219 Goals (184 Non-PK Goals) + (32 Assists + the assists he had in these 121 Carioca League matches) in the 1979-1982 period.
    His team Goals (Brazil and Flamengo) in this period = 538

    :thumbsup:
     

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