Is Zico the best Brazilian Footballer? (Pele not included)

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Mibu Clan, Jul 24, 2006.

  1. SoccerScout

    SoccerScout Member

    Jan 3, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    Internacional Porto Alegre
    I saw Zico play many times....I hated Flamengo but out of respect if you know what I mean. Zico was great, a killer. I never saw Garrincha play so I cant comment...is Zico the 2nd greatest...who cares....but he was very good...along with many other Brazilians.
     
  2. Jerzeslugga

    Jerzeslugga New Member

    Feb 1, 2007
    Galloway, New Jersey
    this ronaldo fanboy is funny
     
  3. LOS_DE_ABAJO

    LOS_DE_ABAJO New Member

    Jan 7, 2007
    I think Garrincha was the 2nd best.

    Zico is extremely close though.
     
  4. paulo_mengao

    paulo_mengao New Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ, USA
    I think we cannot compare them ... totally different styles and positions ... also, their functions were completely different. Garrincha was a wizard (how could he do that with thoes legs he had ??) and he was simply free to humiliate the opponents and to do whatever he wanted - CHECK IT OUT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yd6r-1EDo. Both Pele and Garrinhc played in a time where, in my opinion, footbal was harder to play.

    But in my opinion, Zico was more complete as a footbal player and as an athlete.

    Anyway - I would put Pelé and Garrincha on the same room of the "Olympus", on its roof. Then, on the other room, one floor below, I would put Zico, Maradona and all other legends from the eighties.
     
  5. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Harder to play ? From what aspect ? I believe it's harder for a player with technical skills (such as Garrincha, Pele', even Zico) to play today because players are not given as much space as in the past to work with. Defenders are better atheltes today and defenses have evolved tactically.
     
  6. ELADO

    ELADO New Member

    Aug 9, 2005
    washington dc usa
    Celito see players like those would have adapted ! I believe players with great skills can play in any Period because all they need to do is adapt. Its not like they will be using the techniques from their time against todays technique.. they will be afforded the same training, medicine,and coaching today's players have.See,with this comparison of players from different eras we should compare them with the knowledge that both skills will be compared under the same conditions. Of course todays players with the new advanced training and technique, would outdo yesterdays players with inferior or less advanced techniques but the question will be who is the best when afford the same conditions for both the playesr being compared. hey.. skills are skills and can be translated to greatness in any era if afforded the coaching, techniques and training of that time.
     
  7. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    I am old enough to tell you that I was there live. I was in Maracana many times when he did that. I was about 15 and sat right by the goal post. When any of the defenders created a faul in front of the area the other players complained to them as if they were giving up a goal. It was always the same.

    Maracana was filled with people and Zico would walk and pick up the ball from the groung almost like a ritual. The players from the other team were still complaining among themselves or complaning to the referee about the call. Zico would place the ball as if he knew of a special spot. The coolest thing is that Maracana had a watching site where people stood and that they could walk around the outside of the entire field. It was the cheapest seat in the stadium. Anyway, from where I was watchin I could see all the flamengo fans positioning themselves behind the goal and I swear that the whole stadium went quite.Complete silence. The only thing you could hear was the radios broadcasting the game. In complete silence you could hear the whistle and Zico would step to the ball twice. Two steps only. Zico would place the ball with the inside of his foot and it came out as a hard shot. The ball would find one of the angles with no space to spare but missing. Then Maracana would explode in a deafening sound of thousands of people screaming.

    I am sure another brasilian who was there can verify this. Zico have no match in free kicks, Period. He would score 9 out of 10. An the one he missed usually hit the post. Zico was phenomenal.
     
  8. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    People know Zico around the world and all the people in Europe who saw Romario, Ronaldo play would most likely believe these two are the 2 best forwards to come out of Brasil after Zico. In reality, taken Pele and Garrincha out of the equation, and the best player in the history of soccer in Brasil was named Reinaldo. He played for Atletico Mineiro and he was inside Maracana in some of the games I saw. He was also the most unfortunate player ever because the violence against him end his carreer at around 25 years old. Flamengo was my team and I feared Reinaldo everytime we played against him.

    I love Romario and Ronaldo, but in perfect shape they would seat on the bench for Reinaldo under any coach. Too bad I do no find a link so you can see him play but his finishes were incredible. Both feet and dribling defenders with his body only without touching the ball. In 1982 he sat on the bench, hurt. Most brasilians who saw him played would certainly write: Pele, Garrincha, Zico, Reinaldo and everyone else.

    There is unfortunately one link I can find. Final game. Flamengo X Atletico and Zico gets the ball and Reinaldo kicks him. The ref gave Reinaldo a red card, if you look at Zico he puts his hand on his head. Reinaldo was so respected that you see a Flamengo player complaning with the referee about the call. After the game Zico gave an interview and said that he felt that Reinaldo did not deserve the red card and that the game would not be the same without Reinaldo on the field. Because most of you do not speak portuguese I will tell that Atletico walked off the field complaining that Flamengo bought the referee.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwwXKwHm6BI

    reinaldo goal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkj8B6HE_j8
     
  9. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I am just saying that it is tougher today for players with skills to make it then it was in the past. The other poster said it was tougher to play in the past. I disagree. The special they had on Brazil a couple of years ago on FSC on Brazilian soccer had recruits saying that today they look for players that are more physical. They also said that if you're not that physical, you can't just be excellent technically anymore, you have to be a genius.
     
  10. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    This is my impression also, that Zico is the greatest bar none at scoring from free kicks. One player in history to take a free kick outside the top of the penalty area, over a wall, to save your life? Only Zico.
     
  11. superfrantheman

    superfrantheman Red Card

    Nov 11, 2006
    Olvidados de Dios
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Nat'l Team:
    Peru
    ROMARIO DE SOUZA FARIA o baixinho
     
  12. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Three of my favorite plays from Zico as a play maker that I could find.

    82 Against Italy - the video quality is bad. But I think most of us have seen it. Amazing turn/change of direction and a perfectly weighted pass to Socrates that broke the Italian defense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epQStWWy2aA

    82 Against Argentina - it's at the end of this long report of the 82 team. The third goal with a perfect pass through the Argentinian defense to Junior.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBmg4D_ZD4U

    86 Agaisnt France - a perfect pass to Branco behind the French defense that created the famous missed PK. It was supposed to be a crowning moment for Zico. Maybe it was bad karma for Branco faking injury to win the PK.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=342DWbBhtGo&mode=related&search=

    Zico did later convert the PK in the shootout (while Platini missed his). Unfortunately it wasn't enough.
     
  13. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Before Pele's career ---> The best was ZIZINHO

    During Pele's career ---> The other legend was GARRINCHA

    After Pele's career ---> was ZICO


    Zizinho won Sudamericano & was runner-up SA & WC

    Garricha won 2 WC titles & runner-up SA

    Zico doesn´t won anything with the Selecao, but had some titles with Fla


    I would voted for Mané Garrincha 4ever ;)
     
  14. Arthur A Coimbra

    Arthur A Coimbra New Member

    Aug 3, 2006
    Zico was a genius. There have been many great Brazilians since Pele but none quite on the level of Zico imo.

    You only had to watch the Brazilian 2006 WC Squad in absolute awe of him
    when they met him before the Brazil v Japan game.There were vastly experienced World Cup winners surrounding him all starry eyed,guys like Roberto Carlos,Ronaldo etc etc. They knew who the King was.

    Zico had probably the best scoring record of any attacking midfield player in history.Then when you analyse his other great skills - the deadly slide rule passing,the twists and turns and body swerves,his deadly free kicks,his close control and awareness and his impressive body strength and stamina(he was still a star in Japan at 40)then you see what an all round package of a star player he was.

    He may not have won the World Cup but he played against some exceptional opposition in the World Cups he participated in and no-one can seriously tell me that any of the Brazilian teams that say Romario and Ronaldo played in were better than THAT 82 side? They didn't have the same level of competition in the World Cups that they played in.

    For some results in football is the be all and end all.There may be an element of truth in that when assessing actual teams although results is not the be all and end all.But when we are assessing individual players results in tornaments etc are not as important.Football is a team game.You can play out of your skin,game after game,and still be let down by inferior team mates.i feel Zico,Socrates,Eder and co were let down in the 82 WC by the average central defenders and very average goalkeeper in that otherwise beautiful Brazilian team.i guess what i'm trying to say is that when assessing individuals the winning of titles etc is not the be all and end all,not by a long stretch.The individuals flair,skill etc has to come before the teams results when assessing that player.And there have been precious few in football's rich histoty that had the flair and all round ability to match the great Zico. IMO.
     
  15. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    Stupid question. Is that your real name? I am sure you know why I am asking.
     
  16. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That one blew me away. I don't remember seeing it before - too young in 82 and of course the game vs. Argentina is not as often retold as others.

    But I don't think I've seen many better through balls in my life.
     
  17. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    You are right. Notice that both Zico and Junior are right footed and Zico passes with his left and Junior scores with his left. I think Maradona was a great player but I think Zico was better. And I think the best left full back we ever had was Juior. Two great players.
     
  18. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I was only 5 in that WC so I really don't remember much from that WC. I only saw this in highlights years after. I also like his pass to Falcao on the second goal in that same game. He just knew Falcao was running down the right side and just flicked the ball perfectly to him.

    I wish I had been born a few years earlier so I could have enjoyed watching Zico at his peak. I really only watching him play in some Brazil games before the 86 WC and for Flamengo after he came back from Udinese. That was enough to make him my favorite player of all time.
     
  19. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    [
    [/QUOTE]

    Celito watch this. Some of Zico goals and plays. Notice the free kicks.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeUlITkOok

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-NEVei0VKo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alCSeJ5cW3o

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsc8-wl8tY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsG8CHnEs5A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OyRkxAgDk4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpEnjZIWko

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFD5FKkHzQs
     
  20. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    I have posted some clips from Zico for you guys to enjoy. The second clip is from Flamengo of 1980, one of the best clubs ever and in fact the best team in the world after beating Cobreloa from Chile for the title.
    The fullbacks of that Flamengo team were Junior and Leandro the same from the outstanding 1982 brasilian team. At the end of the clip, you can hear Zico say something that any fan in the world like to hear from their players. A sense of respect, loyalty and love for the fans that lacks in some of the multi-million dollar players of today.

    Zico: " Everytime we entered the field on Sunday with that team we knew that our fans would have a happy and wonderful Monday."

    Brasil lost the last world cup against France with a team packed with superstars. They left the field sadden but you could see that it was just a job for them. They got back to their routine like nothing happened. There was no sense of empathy with the fans. There was almost a unspoken feeling from the brasilian team: we lost.They won. We can't win them all. There was no pride at all. Back to the commercials, to the beach, to real madrid, barcelona, and to a wonderful life. You guys can wait another 4 years and the check cleared.

    Zico always played to win and when he lost you could see him coming out of the field crying. You could see that he was ashamed. We knew that statiscally we have to loose at some point and so did Zico. But it was obvious that he felt responsable.
     
  21. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Even though it's almost impossible to see, it's still awesome.

    Anselmo gets in the game for the sole purpose of knocking out Mário Soto. :D
     
  22. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The best Brazilian footballer after Pele is Garrincha. Phenomenal. His dumming, twisting and turning was amazing. He may have stopping moving but once you have stopped, Garrincha would have accelerated away and crossed. It would have been interesting for him to have played against Paolo Maldini at the height of their powers. A great battle would have been on the cards.

    Zico would probably be third, IMO. Maybe the fact the he didn't win a World Cup counts against him and he played in squads that had the potential to win the trophy. Bad luck did contribute to that though.

    Does anyone have a clip of Zico with footage of him at Udinese only?
     
  23. marcotarcitano

    marcotarcitano New Member

    Mar 12, 2007
  24. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Agreed.

    Although I don't think we should match Pelé & Garrincha: one was an offensive mid (a number 10), the other a forward (right-wing), two completely different positions.

    As far as number 10s I'd say:

    1. Pelé
    2. Zizinho
    3. Tostão/Zico

    However, if we consider mids and forwards altogether, and we adopt a classical 4-2-4 in order to fit the great forwards of all times, we'd have 12 places to deal with (starters & subs).

    My 12 mid/forwards:

    1. Pelé
    2. Garrincha
    3. Leônidas da Silva
    4. Didi
    5. Zizinho
    6. Fausto
    7. Gérson
    8. Zico
    9. Rivelino
    10. Heleno de Freitas
    11. Jair da Rosa Pinto
    12. Tostão

    But, as a football team is made out of goalie and defenders, the all-time Brz 11 (now adopting a 1-1-3-5) in my opinion would be:

    Gilmar
    Domingos da Guia
    Nilton Santos
    Didi-Zizinho-Gérson
    Garrincha-Pelé-Leônidas-Zico-Rivelino

    Hors-concours:
    Friendreich

    That team coud take 3 goals but for sure would score back 9.

    And the rest is the rest...
     

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