Is Zico the best Brazilian Footballer? (Pele not included)

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Mibu Clan, Jul 24, 2006.

  1. Ronaldooooo!

    Ronaldooooo! O Fenomeno

    Mar 23, 2006
    I knew you were gonna come up with those facts. Alright, i admit my answer wasn't on point.

    However, I doubt you really watched those Copa America games where Ronaldo participated. Uruguay had Reccoba in his prime, Colombia had Valderrama, Argentina had Batistuta , and Chile had Marcelo Salas. That goes without mentioning Mexico, Paraguay, and Bolivia who made it to the finale in 1997. Argentina were eliminated by Peru. Competition was raw, i certainly don't know how you can argue against it. The best South American football players alongside the best player in the World at that time (Ronaldo) were all participating in that event.

    It's just not right to dismiss others accomplishments, becuase you somehow come up with a conclusion of your own that the level of competition was fairly average back then. Totally disrespeting latin football and their great players that poured their soul in it.
     
  2. Mibu Clan

    Mibu Clan New Member

    Jul 4, 2006
    Bogota
    Just one thing about the Copa America:

    Argentina played with most of their at Peru...

    The only Copa America you can actually say that didnt have good first rate teams was Colombia 2001...
     
  3. Sparks2005

    Sparks2005 New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
    São Paulo, Brazil
    I’m not denying those nations had a few good players. But two or three good players don’t make a competitive team, sorry. Even a team with several stars can turn out not to jell together.

    Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Peru, Ecuador and even Mexico have never really made any significant impact in a World Cup. Uruguay has been a team of no hopers for the last three decades. You see what I mean? I know it will sound a little bit harsh, but the truth is nowadays there’s no real quality in Latin American football save for Brazil and Argentina.

    Like I said, most of the South American nations have two or three very good players, and that’s it – just not enough for a team of eleven.

    If you are referring to the 1999 tournament, I think you are a little bit confused. Batistuta, Recoba and Valderrama were not there. You are right about Chile, they did have Salas and Zamorano. I’m almost sure Uruguay played with reserves, but I would have to confirm it.

    The decline of Copa America isn’t something I made up, but frankly, I feel a bit lazy to start googling articles related to the subject just to feed you a couple of links. If you are interested in looking it up, you will have to do it yourself. I’m quite sure this is a pretty undisputed fact, so I’m genuinely surprised there are still people giving the tournament so much praise.

    Sorry man, but stating Copa America is at the same level of the European Championships is a quite wild claim.
     
  4. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You're right, we beat a young Uruguay team 3x0 in the final. (In 1997 we beat hosts Bolivia in the final).
     
  5. Sparks2005

    Sparks2005 New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Eh? Argentina didn't even play in 2001.

    I don't remember Argentina traveling with a complete reserve team, but then again, they always left some important starters at home since 1995. In part, probably due to conflicts with European clubs, but nevertheless, that shows how little they care.
     
  6. Sparks2005

    Sparks2005 New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
    São Paulo, Brazil
    I remember watching that final live. It was a walkover from start to finish.

    I also remember Zagallo's infamous "vocês vão ter de me engolir" to the cameras after the 1997 3-1.
     
  7. Ronaldooooo!

    Ronaldooooo! O Fenomeno

    Mar 23, 2006
    My point is, if we go by your logic. Then the Brasilian championship (which Zico have won plenty of them) isn't at the same level of the European Championship and the World Cup, or are you now gonna argue otherwise?

    Trophies are trophies. If you win them you win them. You can't take nothing away from it cuz it was yada yada and yada. As long as you display beautiful football or play on a high level if you do win them. Ronaldo has done that.

    Also it don't matter if Uruguay and Paraguay haven't made it to the quarter-finale. What matter is who was holding the trophy at the end. Copa America nations have won 3 of the last 6 World Cups.
     
  8. mak9

    mak9 Member

    May 21, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    hows Zico doing in Fenerbahce right now?
     
  9. Emrah_Tr

    Emrah_Tr New Member

    Sep 9, 2005
    Turkey
  10. leonidas

    leonidas Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    they just won the first game of the season 6-0. 3 goals for alex.
     
  11. Mibu Clan

    Mibu Clan New Member

    Jul 4, 2006
    Bogota
    Argentina played with most of their starters at that time at Peru 2004 :p

    Yes I know Argentina didnt play in Colombia 2001, what I meant was that it was the only Copa America did REALLY DIDNT have any first rate teams...
     
  12. Sparks2005

    Sparks2005 New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
    São Paulo, Brazil
    I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are trying to say in this paragraph, but I wouldn't make that comparison, because club level tournaments and competitions involving nations are far too different.

    When I said Copa America isn't at the same level of the European Championships I meant level of quality. Of course, the standard for a comparison is correct in this case, seeing they are both nation tournaments. In my mind they rank in this order:

    World Cup > European Championship > Copa America > Confederations Cup > African Nations Cup (modern day - 80s onwards) > remaining tournaments.

    As for the club level competitions, I would dare say in terms of technical quality, the Brazilian Championship was as good as any European league until the early 90s (when most of the best players stayed on home soil for a good part of their careers). However, the main European leagues (Italian, Spanish, English and German) were always a little bit more attractive and a lot more respected because they were properly organized - I mean, the old structure of Brazilian Championships sucked – the competition allowed crap teams (Coritiba, Bahia, ’90 Corinthians, etc) to make it to the final thanks to a good late run. Totally unfair at times.

    You are missing the point, again. We’re not talking about the merits of teams, we’re addressing the efficiency of players. A player can perform incredibly well and the team fails to win (example, Bergkamp in ’94 and ’98), and a player can also present pretty average displays while the team wins (examples, Zinho in ’94, Lucio in ‘02).

    The Copa America issue was a side comment.

    This is misleading. Argentina and Brazil have won 3 out of the last 6 WCs. That doesn’t mean the remaining Copa America nations aren’t poor. I never denied Brazil and Argentina are elite teams. The problem with Copa America is besides Brazil and Argentina, you have a remaining pack of uncompetitive nations.
     
  13. Denilson70

    Denilson70 Member

    May 29, 2001
    England
    Lucio average? Outstanding I would say.
     
  14. Sparks2005

    Sparks2005 New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
    São Paulo, Brazil
    I’m sorry, but I can't agree with that. Note I was referring specifically to 2002. Take a look how shaky his performances were against Costa Rica, Belgium and England (remember Owen?).

    After that World Cup, he was still a bit insecure in the South American qualifiers. Some of his performances were horrible (example: 3-3 against Uruguay).

    He was definitely better in 2006, a pleasant surprise I would say. He had his bad moments too though – I would highlight the way Ribery embarrassed him by rolling the ball between his legs, before crossing it, when it almost went in after a deflection from Juan (the game was already 1-0).

    That's why I call Lucio average. When on top form, he isn't bad at all, but he is over dependent on a good partnership, and too inconsistent in my opinion. He is another one of these players that doesn't repeat club performances in the national side.
     
  15. Denilson70

    Denilson70 Member

    May 29, 2001
    England

    I back this man absolutely. In fact, if Dunga is looking for a Xerife...he would be my choice as capitao.

    Eleven Lucio's and we would not have lost the Copa.

    We will have to disagree.
     
  16. Sparks2005

    Sparks2005 New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
    São Paulo, Brazil
    It's ok to disagree. I do agree with you on his spirit and attitude.
     
  17. leonidas

    leonidas Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    i think of the defenders to come around since our last great one in Aldair, well, Lucio is certainly the best. i still have nightmares about lucio in the england game in WC02, but i was impressed with his play in WC06. it's reassuring though to know that our depth at defense is getting better each here. while we may not have a true craque on defense, we have guys like juan, lucio, luisao, and now alex, who are pretty good. alex in particular looks to have the brightest future of any defender we've produced in the past decade.
     
  18. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I'd say Juan still has more potential even at 27 than his teammates on the 2006 team. Well, except for Luisão. I'd like to see those two back in 2010, along with Alex among the younger ones.

    Who will be the fourth guy? Edu Dracena?

    As much as I like Lúcio I don't think he's likely to be among the 4 (or even 5?) central defenders we take in 2010.
     
  19. VivaFutbol

    VivaFutbol New Member

    Mar 15, 2007
    I also saw Zico and Ronaldo. The time was different, there was not so much midia, the brazilians cold stay more in their own country. My personal view is Zico as a Midfielder was amazing, he has so much poetry with his game.
    In Italy some games the fans from the other clubs would be screaming for his name, even when he was playing against their team. AMAZING!
    Ronaldo is a great player but in my opinium Zico is Zico.
    Check this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watchv=HLh_QJlvnbU&mode=related&search=zico

    There was one time that even the goalkeper give him an aplause after his score.
    Zico also had his tragedies, he was also hurt many times. Long time not playing for surgery etc. The tragedy of the penalty againt France and so on.
    But yeas he is there with Platini, Best, Maradona and so on.
    Increadible skils.
    Now if we look as scores Romario will be doing his 1000 goals soon with 44 years of age.
     
  20. Colorado_GAUCHO

    Nov 16, 2004
    Porto Alegre-BRASIL
    Club:
    Internacional Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    After Pele'

    ZICO IS THE BEST BRASILIAN EVER.

    Garrincha was great but it was limited to a certain style of play and a certain part of the field. There were Pele' is top of the top, zico is below him (by himself) then cames the tier 3 (Tostao, Garrincha,Socrates etc) the great strikers (good yet not complete as the real camisa 10's (Romario & cia)
     
  21. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Zico was just complete. Not only on the field but also as a professional. Very hardworking and loyal. He is a true idol. Watching his highlights after scoring goals and running to the Flamengo crowd gives me goosebumps.

    I was only old enough to catch him later in his career from 82 on. I wish I was a little older to have seen more of him. His foul shots always looked so effortless.

    Does anybody know why he came back from Italy ? He was doing well at Udinese. I remember there was a whole campaign to bring him back to Flamengo and he came back after 2 years in Italy.
     
  22. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He was homesick. He missed his family and the Flamengo torcida.
     
  23. XaviandXabi

    XaviandXabi Member

    May 4, 2005
    CT
    amazingly, our CB are the only position on the NT that i have no worries, funny too because i remember after the confederation cup fictory, our biggest weakness was our D specificly Roque Jr, now its probably one of our biggest strength
     
  24. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Most people underrated Juan. I remember some polls that were run on a number of forums and Juan didn't even crack the top 3..
     
  25. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Zico was also an icon for me watching Flamengo from Washington DC in 1981. People have remarked on the effortlessness of his freekicks. Part of that was that the ball itself seemed effortless, in the way it floated towards the upper corner like it had helium in it. It didn't zip. And while the ball seemed slow, the goalies seemed mesmerized, rooted, frozen in time. So often they didn't even begin to move their feet. They were still standing in the ready position, turning their necks when the ball entered the far upper corner. I started to suspect Univision only showed Flamengo games where Zico did that, and didn't cover the ones he missed. Do they keep statistics in Brazil of freekick strike rates?
     

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