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Discussion in 'NWSL' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Feb 20, 2017.
I find it disconcerting how so many people are more concerned with the NWSL being the "best" league, rather than it being a sustainable and competitive league.
I'm tempted to rename the title of the news thread to be "Is NWSL the best league, it's complicated. Let's discuss"
To me competitiveness game in and game out answers the question for me. If you have to bring your "A" game every week for fear of losing I rank you #1. When a team can finish +100 on G/D how many games were they challenged?!?
Competitiveness is an important component of a great league, but it's not the only one... You can have a perfectly matched league of youth players and there's no way you can claim that's the best league in the world. That said, I agree that claiming to be the best league is a different matter than claiming to be the league with the best teams.
To me, if you want to be the best league in the world, you need to most of all six of the following points (and still be respectable on the points you don't hit):
-Your best teams are better than the best teams from other leagues
-Your mid-table teams are better than the mid-table teams from other leagues
-Your bottom teams can, not uncommonly, surprise your best teams
-Your top players are world-caliber players
-Your average players are better than the average players from other leagues
-Your talent floor is higher than the talent floor from other leagues
For example, France's league clearly fails points 3&6 and is questionable on points 2&5, while NWSL probably fails point 1 and can be debated to varying degrees on points 2&5. The article that started this discussion clearly thinks NWSL is questionable on points 2&5, but doesn't say anything to back that claim up. Unfortunately, a WCWC will do nothing to answer points 2, 5, or 6.
I don't think there's ever been a question about NWSL's competitiveness. (Except maybe with Seattle's disgusting 2yr run at over 2PPG - but even then they were nowhere near the like of Lyon now or Arsenal previously.) As for sustainability, I think the momentum has been demonstrably in that direction over the past two years, so I don't see why people would really be worrying about that any more either, at least not so vocally.
My point was in order for the NWSL to be this mythical best league that people want, that would cause the league to no longer be sustainable and competitive.
I disagree - I think you're assuming being "the best" inherently means losing competitiveness and overspending. But it's already proved able to attract top talent, so it's not like it can't keep doing that in a smart, measured way.
For the overspending, we know that Portland was still able to land Henry, and Orlando is rumored to land Marta, so top players are willing to come over for less than they might be able to get elsewhere simply because of the cross-league quality NWSL already has. Heck, even Seattle (a non-MLS team) was able to land Little, so it's not like the non-MLS teams would inherently be left behind either, even if a DP-like rule was instigated (or might already be for Marta). So there's a preservation of competitiveness, too.
Since what brought about this discussion in the first place is the loss of some of the USWNT players to other leagues, I'm fairly certain assuming that what these people want in "the best" is not what the NWSL currently is is a pretty safe bet. If the NWSL is what they want in "the best," then why did this topic even come up?
Honest question, who are "these people" (posters, players, the writer of the article?!?).
And we also have to look at the players we have lost. Morgan is coming back. Dunn I would say is the only player that has really made a play that could have the NWSL concerned. But even there her situation with her previous club may have also played a role. O'Reilly, is nearing the end of her career, and is looking at a new oppertunity. To a point you could say the same about Lloyd. Also it's not as if the US players who look away from the NWSL are all going to one league. They are going to France, England, Sweden, Holland, etc.
Old post, but it gets the point across: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...ction-discussion.2015120/page-7#post-31606309
WNY was listed as a bottom rung NWSL team haha! Made me laugh! Goes that much further to prove the overall competitiveness of the league as a whole though. It can be argued that NWSL top might not compare to other leagues, but the middle and bottom are clearly close.
If you're being serious, then I can only guess you do not spend any time on any other internet site where people discuss woso. (Why do you think Blaze20 titled the 2017 Player Moves thread "All the stars are gone?" It was a sarcastic response to these people.)
Why do we have to do that? Marquee layers leave and join different leagues all the time. So a few players left? Big deal...
I respect but I strongly disagree with what you say regarding D1F, the problem with judging women leagues is the fact that they are not easy to analyse by someone outside of the league's country because many of us don't watch foreign games, at least highlight for some but that's about it.
Me personally I admit to watch more D2F games/highights than Bundesliga or NWSL even though the quality is clearly inferior simply because I have been completely involved emotionally and physically to my country female football movement for so long, like basically all of us, so I have very little time left for other leagues.
Your judgement on D1F is very wrong because you focus only on results and league table to suggest you that top clubs have it very easy in France........The truth is only Lyon have it "easy", PSG results are sweating specially against mid to top teams, and Montpellier has already been defeated by "minnows"...
I always said to really understand our football people should NEVER watch OL as they are simply the best club in the world, Bundesliga and NWSL are considered tougher than D1F but Lyon could still dominates these leagues if they participated...Lyon is like Messi's Barcelona of some years ago, you couldn't consider la Liga an "easy" league even though you knew who would have won it since September......Barca was simply better than any team worldwide just like OL is.
And for you crucial points here is my sincere reply related to D1F;
Point 1) Lyon and PSG are among the top five best teams worldwide.
Point 2) Juvisy reached theWCL semi-final in 2013, eliminating Norwegian and Swedish clubs but were stopped by...Lyon. A reminder:
Unfortunately only two clubs from a same country are allowed to participate in the only international competition for female clubs which is why we don't face each other more often.....what a shame really.
Point 3) A weakness of D1F true. But it could easily change with teams becoming professional.
Point 4) Are you talking about all players in the league including foreigners? Because if it was the case well even without OL players D1F have some very well known (and very talented) players...no need to cite them.
Point 5) I'm not saying the average D1F is better than those of that or that other league....but the vast majority of our players, specially the new generation, came from the different federal centre all over France.
Selected at 14 years old they train till high school diploma there. The best are usually admitted at the prestigious Clairefontaine football academy where they receive top class football education....If you never heard of it well google it....
Point 6) Here you say D1F clearly fails what?....loool.....once again our average players are not only trained by the very best just like the boys, I think only Germans do it aswell... but their success in youth competitions ,euro and world cups, should have suggested you that the level of talent is quite vast and high in France...Just saying.
If NWSL wants to be the best league Americans need to change the way they play....Horan, Heath now Morgan clearly came in France to discover another football not only based on physicality......I'm not saying USA must practice only a ball-possession kind of football but vary style.. frankly only direct football is boring to watch and even more boring to play, that's why players come in France.....
First, even if PSG are sweating this year, over the past several years they've romped over the rest of the league just as easily as Lyon has. Those are your two best teams, far and away. The statistics do not lie - the chances of them losing to anyone (aside from PSG maybe slipping up against Juvisy or Montpellier) are slim to none.
Also, Juvisy does not qualify for point 2. They're nearly always the third-place team in a twelve-team league, and if not, either in second or just one point out of third. Not to mention there's almost always a huge gap between fourth and fifth. So Juvisy, while not the best, is very clearly above-average, not mid-table.
I've said it in other threads before... Supposedly good training means nothing if it doesn't translate to results. I don't care how prestigious this school that you repeatedly mention is, if the players it produces can't compete until they've spent years in club play, that means they're not learning enough in that school. And no, you can't use NT play, youth level or otherwise, as a stand-in for the strength of clubs. Apples and oranges - not to mention vastly different sizes of player pool.
You weren't tracking me. That was my point a "few" players left, it's not the end of the world. Especially when you look at the situations each was in.
Your point seemed to be these players left but it's not a big deal because they'll be back or they're older and going to retire soon anyway. My point was it doesn't matter period, so we don't even need to look at the players that left.
Juvisy is seventh so far, in a twelve team's league....so yes they do qualify for point 2. Your point is invalidated concerning France average teams. period.
Well with your statement regarding one of the very best Football Academy you don't know what you are talking about regarding France or Football....I don't know if you are American or Spanish but you seriously should get more information regarding Clairefontaine, and why coaching delegations from around the world come to get football knowledge there as this video shows with the American one.
You are saying French players can't compete but won't to take aknowledge of the fact that the most dominant club ever, OL, has been dominating the European scene thank to a core of French players pure product of Clairefontaine academy...that's quite double standard.
The second place French team IS NOT an average team, and that was Juvisy was when they played in UEFA CL so they hardly represented the average team then. And beating Swedish or Norwegian team in QF (their off-season, when France is in mid season) don't impress much, and beating any Norwegain team don't impress much at any time. Norweigan NWT is good their league is however not impressive (although things are starting to happen).
Hmmm, but within this supposed glorious time period of a dynastic Lyon's supremacy over every other Euro based team, I'm pretty sure Germany's seen three of it's various elite clubs winning the UCL, even to the point of them wining or reaching UCL finals ending seasons placed outside of their leagues UCL qualification positions (the top two).
I mean, I think the women's UEFA Cup/UCL has only ever seen it's final not contested by a German club once lol, but your here shouting (again) about the superiority of a lone French club that's long required the services of key foreign signings to enable them to win UEFA's biggest club competition.
Plus with you clearly confusing the perceived strength of any one nations domestic national FA/Fed with it's leagues quality, your completely missing the point others are trying to make here when they attempt to discuss the glaring and minor issues within French footballs top female division.
Do I think it's easy to pick the best league in the world right now... no; but using Clairefontaine or Lyon to help elevate your French league claims is pretty disingenuous given the clearly defined criteria people have posted in here.
No, your point is completely misplaced because you're convoluting two very separate realities. As I pointed out last time and as @JanBalk emphasizes, Jusivsy was in the middle of a decade of being constantly roughly-third place in the league. You can't claim their UWCL success is in any way, shape, or form representative or even remotely related to their current league form if they're floundering so much this year. Heck, as I said concerning PSG's "sweating" (your word) saying something is happening "this year" means NOTHING in the big picture. You want to say there's been a shift in the league toward being more competitive? Show me two or three years of statistics to prove it. Because there hasn't been a single completed season recently that does so.
And now you're either completely ignoring the point I've made multiple times before or are just moving the goalposts. It doesn't matter if the OL players came from this school. (Or if the youth NT players come through either.) You bring up Clairefontaine any time you try making that point that all (or at least most) players in the French league (or NTs) are more talented than players in other leagues... But if you want to make that argument, that means you can't use the creme-of-the-crop to justify your point. Like @Batfink said, that's an entirely unrepresentative sample. And I don't care how much respect the school gets from other coaching areas. The point I've always made and you haven't address is explaining why the French league is always so lopsided if so many players on different teams have supposedly gained so much knowledge at this place. Just because players (or coaches) go to a place with so much knowledge doesn't mean a thing if those players (or coaches) can't use it to get results.
You've got people from three different leagues points out all the flaws in your arguments. Take off your homer glasses and take a chill pill. You clearly have two of the best teams in the world an a ton of French and international stars on those teams - no one is arguing that. And you can enjoy that fact all you want. But you need to accept that you have a very imbalanced league.
First of all my apology to the Americans because the last messages in this thread have nothing to do with the original post...secondly, @SiberianThunderT I think is you who really need to relax and take some reading comprehension courses because you cleary are not getting my points.....you are saying many idiocy on French football. I'm trying to correct them by giving you a help to understand the situation from the INSIDE but you seem to be a mr/mrs "knowitall"....Did you really want to school me about the current state of D1F?...Me?....
You don't even realize that there is a huge difference between a COMPETITIVE league and a IMBALANCED one, and why Clairefontaine, OL/Aulas politics are the key factors which made D1F very competitive, the first, through highly qualified training given to the majority of players involved but also very imbalanced, the second, by being the ONLY professional club in the league for so long and therefore very easily recruiting the very best French players around.
@blissett and @gricio61 could tell you how one club (in their case Della Valle's Fiorentina) putting a certain amount of money, signing the very best players in the country destabilized a league as Fiorentina is easily winning is first title ....Is really not easy to understand why France is so unbalanced despite Clairf, .Aulas was the only one for a very long period to give players a professional contract so it was easy for him to sign the very best out of Clairefontaine...Now you get it?
I don't know if all clubs in Germany or England are professional but in France Lyon became a full-time professional club (female section) since 2008, PSG since 2012 and Montpellier only since last summer.......so OL took a big advantages from the rest in terms of power of attraction, investment, infrastructures etc.. for years......that's why they won easily in France but also abroad...is easy to understand but you must use your intellect and unfortunately not everybody can do that.
And by the way yesterday newly promoted O. Marseille and actually fourth in D1 defeated PSG by two goals to nil.....good old D1F with precitable results what's happening ?
Seems my understanding of the word competitive is incomplete.
Definition by Google (not best source I admit): "As good as or better than others of a comparable nature".
Sounds like a synonym for balanced to me.
No, I'm getting your points loud and clear - as are others in this thread. That's why I'm not the only one calling out the flaws in your argument. If I wasn't understanding, it would be people correcting me and siding with you, not the other way around. We get what you're saying - and pointing out what's wrong with your logic. You're essentially not seeing the forest for the trees, looking at specific details but not placing those details in the bigger picture (or, worse, pairing details together incorrectly, e.g. Juvisy's past success versus current form).
I will be the first to admit that I'm in no way an expert on your league. What I CAN do, though, is see all the results, and those are all I've ever based my arguments on. You can say players have great skills and football knowledge because of their education, but those skills and knowledge don't constitute real talent if they can't translate those tricks and trivia into results. It'd be like saying players that come out of the best NCAA school are instantly qualified to join the pros - it doesn't work like that. Whether players excel at skills, strength, or a combination of the two, they need the talent to turn that into results or it's entirely pointless. The table and how it progresses through the years are the big picture.
Well, good for O. Marseille. But that and the loss to Albi are still the first times PSG has lost to someone outside the top 4 in SIX YEARS, and you have to go two more seasons back from there (I presume before they went professional) to find that these losses for PSG were common. Remember that my point 3 from my original list was that results like this need to be not-uncommon, but so just one or two unexpected results in years doesn't change the fact the league is overall highly predictable. As I said before, if you want to make an argument that the league is shifting from grossly tiered to more competitive, whether by professionalism or whatever, come back in two to three years when you have the stats to prove it. Otherwise, this is just the exception that proves the rule.
= = = = =
Anyway, saw this article earlier today and it (plus the one comment currently on it) is highly relevant to the thread in general:
Nope Balance and Competitiveness are not the same - regarding women leagues- is important to get it right in order to understand the current situation of domestic female football worldwide but you need a certain intellect which clearly some don't possess in this forum.
For exemple we could say that Sapnish league is way more balanced than French one by only paying attention at the results, like @SiberianThunderT .... is an undebatable fact, but the question is; Are Spanish clubs more competitive than French ones?...Last year in January Soyaux, average mid-table D1F club, defeated Athletic Bilbao, current Spanish league title holder, by seven goals to two....
As I wanted to underline, when talking about Juvisy in Europe, unfortunately there is no other competition than WCL and very few friendlies between clubs of different countries in order to really compare the level of different leagues.
NWSL could be the perfect league because ALL teams are profesional therefore could attract and keep on a long term the best players while D1F only three out of twelve clubs are pro which make it constantly unbalanced, let me give you an exemple:
Guingamp had a core of very promising players some years ago who helped the team finishing two times fifth in a row and reach Coupe de France 1/4 finals only stopped by OL.
Their future looked bright as their best players were 20/21 years old at the time and some even teenagers....Unfortunately, many of those young players were also very ambitious so in two seasons they loss key players like, talented striker Clarisse Le Bihan (France international) to Montpellier, startings CMs pair Aminata Diallo (to PSG) and Lalia Dali-Storti (to OM) and most important their captain and best player Griedge Mbock who forced her way out to Lyon....Forcing coach M'barek to rebuild the team from scratch.....All these girls left because they wanted to be professional above all.
In France young girls don't have the choice, if they want to live from only kicking a ball they have to choose between three clubs....actually the situation is getting better as four years ago they had only one choice....That is what makes D1F very unbalanced even though the players pool talent is way higher than the average league.
In America you will never have this problem as your teams could not only keep their best domestic players but also sign some of the best worldwide......Your problem is in the quality -technical, tactical - of those teams, according to Amandine Henry surprisingly quite lower than expected.