Is it time to split apart the Top 6 leagues in UEFA from the rest?

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by iggymcfly, Dec 5, 2016.

  1. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    As a fan of Dinamo Zagreb, i am completely against that, because this is like only opportunity for me to see big teams in real life. You don't understand how much pleasure it brings to at least have a competitor in the biggest football stage. If anything, i would make it even more international by making group stages bigger. And we did smash Arsenal 2-0 two years ago. ;)
     
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  2. nickcat

    nickcat Member

    Jul 24, 2012
    Southport
    Club:
    --other--
    Rather than splitting UEFA competitions into one for the Top 6 Leagues and another for the rest; the easiest way to shake it all up, is to only invite the Champions of each country to participate. Get rid of the seeding, so that in theory the Big League teams could face each other (and knock each other out) early in the competition. To help the minnows even more, get rid of the group stages, and make it straight knockout.

    I wonder if there's ever been a competition like that? ;)
     
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  3. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    That would be the most stupid thing ever. It's not coincedence that they abandoded it. Champions league without clubs like Barcelona, Dortmund, PSG, City, United, Atletico, etc.? Who the hell would watch that, why would that be interesting at all?

    What i find the most unsatisfying about Champions league are 1/8 finals and the fact that KO phases tend to have more surpirse than i would prefer due to only two games (home and away) match ups.. I would throw out 1/8 finals all together and make knockout phases start immediately from 1/4 finals because i don't see the point of 1/8 finals, they are mostly without surprises. Teams like Porto, Benfica, Leicester, Bayer are unnecessary part of KO phases, i would also like if each knockout match up was consisted of 3 games (home, away and neutral), that would increase the number of high profile games and roughly fill in the gap that happened by abandoning 1/8 finals. That would be more than awesome. And i believe FIFA would win financially as well in that case, because, well, there would be more high profile games and they could make UCL even more international by deciding where those neutral games would be played. Just imagine watching two giants in your home town. it works for final, i can't think of a reason why wouldn't for everything else. In overal it would be only 7 games on a neutral stadiums, which doesn't seem too unpractical.

    About group stage, i would probably abandon current system as well. I was thinking about 4 groups with 6-8 teams, where the best two advance in 1/4 finals, but i am not sure how practical that would be. More games and no time to play them all.
     
  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Just imagine filling up 4 groups with current teams. We would have matches like Barca - Juve several times during one gameweek. While it would contradict my previous post that i would make it more interantional, but ******** it, in this type of system i wouldn't mind that or making it even smaller from 32 teams to 26, and at the end of the day, those neutral games i was talking about, would perhapse open up opportunities for everyone to see big teams.
     
  5. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Well actually there is time to play a group of six. It's 4 games longer than the current group-stage but you would also eliminate one knockout round (so 2 games less). So you could just play 6 group games from Sept to December exactly like now. Then play the other 4 group games in February and March before diving into the QFs in April.

    That said I hate this idea since it would lead to a lot of dead-rubber matches. Many teams will essentially be eliminated after just 5 or 6 matches.
     
  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    There is no time in february cuze KO would be 3 games long in my world, which adds up to those 2 matcheweeks that are lost because of no 1/8 finals so in february 1/4 finals would be played, and some time in March.

    Well, that's good point for dead matches, well what about keeping 4 teams in each group, make it 4 groups in overal, but make playoffs for UCL bigger. Playoffs are KO system so there could be as many games as one might like.
    Only 16 best teams would actually qualify for UCL (there is no need for more than that, there is Europa league as well), but it would be way more interesting. In those cases, things like Bayern not getting out of group stage could be an actual thing, which is good. And whoever reaches semi finals of UCL would be a quite deserveful of their place there cuze they would need to get past a lot of tough fixtures to get there. That would raise the quality of UCL's matches, and most importantly, UCL would be a far more accurate representation of the best teams in the world that season, which is the most important point for me.
    Imagine no more seasons like 2015/16 in case of Real Madrid. Road to the final like Roma, Wolfsburg, City would be a thing of the past.

    I am left with organizing playoffs so that it makes sense, and i have my perfect imaginary world that will never become reality.
     
  7. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    That's what makes it fun - its a dream!

    I agree though that fewer teams in group stage would make for more overall entertainment. I guess groups of 6 could also work if, say, the top 2 teams advanced to the QFs, while the third and fourth place teams clinch CL spots for the following season. That would give all teams in the group something to play for until at least the 8th or 9th match, probably.
     
  8. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    I don't think the clubs would want rounds to have three games instead of two. Manchester United ended 2016-2017 with 16 games in 54 days.
     
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  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Lol, it wouldn't result in more games for a single team. There would be no 1/8 finals which were two games, and instead of those two games you would have one extra game of 1/4 finals and semi finals. 1/4 finals would start earlier than before and games would be spread out very well, resulting with the same amount of games in post season UCL. 2nd half season could work perfectly, the only problem is to arrange group stages and playoffs in such way that a lot of clubs gets a chance in Champions league with the best 8 advancing to 1/4 finals, but with limited amount of matchdays.

    Only thing that i can think of right now is to have 4 groups with 4 teams (the two best in each group advance on further), but make playoffs for UCL a bit bigger with like 20+ teams playing with each other to get those last spots. That would eliminate the weakest teams and we would be left out only with the cream of the European football, not with Apoel, Celtic, Maribor, etc..
     
  10. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    I don't want the Group Stage to have fewer than 32 clubs, and if it has only 8 group winners advancing there will too many clubs without a chance to advance. You can prefer your idea, and I can prefer the status quo.
     
  11. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Tell me the last time some big surprise happened in group stages? It's the same every single time, we roughly know who will advance through and if some surprising team advance through it usually gets eliminated right away in KO phase. So what's the point of it?
    I've been saying for years now that, for me, UCL starts in 1/4 finals (and partly 1/8 finals), because that's when all the crucial things are happening, who will win Barca-Juve, PSG-Bayern, and those matches don't matter at all. Before KO, it's just a routine for big clubs and clubs that matter in ucl, in other words, a marketing, also for players like Messi and Cristiano to pump up their statistic vs Celtic, Malmo, Apoel,..

    In my format, clubs would be challenged immidiately in group stage because there would be only the 16 roughly best teams in the world and who ever gets at the end of that competition would be the best team deservely so. As i said, i hate the way Real won 2015/16 ucl, it's a disgrace imo. No real challenge, till the last 90 minutes vs Atleti which they won by penalties. Things like that would be avoided in this format.
    Maybe Real was the best team that season, but they didn't get challenged at all in ucl, they didn't have to work for it much at all. Boring.
     
  12. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    What do you think about a mid-February match in Moscow, Kyiv, or St. Petersburg?
     
  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    They are paid milions, if i voluntarily was eager to play way bellow 0 degrees in short sleeves, raging storms with lightnings just around, etc in lower league unimportant matches, i don't see a problem in playing in the most sophisticated stadiums and equipments, while being paid milions for it.
     
  14. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    They're already taking place now whenever a Russian team advances to the knockout stage of either the CL or EL.
     
  15. When PSV eliminated ManUnited from going to the knockout rounds. Not so long ago. But if surprises happen often, it's hardly called surprises anymore.
     
  16. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    If you are refering to 2012, it wasn't PSV and it's not a big surprise. Nobody expected it but not a big surprise cuze United was undergoing change of generation, it does happen.
    But then what's the point of having group stages? So that every 5 years we could see an ONE big team not getting out of group stage, and the team that beat them to the place getting eliminated in the very next round?
    At the end of the day only the finest teams of Europe get in quater finals and semis. Having small teams playing vs big teams might result in a surprise in a short run, but the results are the same at the end. Why waste 5 months to see that when in my format big teams would be challenged immidiately in the group stage?
    Now group stages are here to mostly kill time and have a surprise every 5th season.
     
  17. Sorry dude, but if you make statements, do it right. Try to outdo someone who knows his facts makes you look silly.
    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League_2015/16#Groep_B
    Groep B
    Club Wed Win Gel Ver DV DT +/- Pnt
    Wolfsburg 6 4 0 2 9 6 +3 12
    PSV 6 3 1 2 8 7 +1 10
    Manchester United 6 2 2 2 7 7 0 8
    CSKA Moskou 6 1 1 4 5 9 -4 4
    15 september 2015
    20:45 uur
    Wolfsburg 1 – 0 CSKA Moskou Volkswagen-Arena, Wolfsburg
    Toeschouwers: 20.126
    Scheidsrechter: Svein Moen
    Draxler 40'

    15 september 2015
    20:45 uur
    PSV 2 – 1 Manchester United Philips Stadion, Eindhoven
    Toeschouwers: 35.292
    Scheidsrechter: Nicola Rizzoli
    Moreno 45+2'
    Narsingh 57'
    41' Memphis
    30 september 2015
    20:45 uur
    Manchester United 2 – 1 Wolfsburg Old Trafford, Manchester
    Toeschouwers: 74.811
    Scheidsrechter: Viktor Kassai
    Mata 34' (p.)
    Smalling 53'
    4' Caligiuri
    30 september 2015
    20:45 uur
    CSKA Moskou 3 – 2 PSV Arena Chimki, Chimki
    Toeschouwers: 16.152
    Scheidsrechter: Ruddy Buquet
    Musa 7'
    Doumbia 21', 36' (p.)
    60', 68' Lestienne
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] 43', 81' Arias
    21 oktober 2015
    20:45 uur
    CSKA Moskou 1 – 1 Manchester United Arena Chimki, Chimki
    Toeschouwers: 18.456
    Scheidsrechter: Carlos Velasco
    Doumbia 15'
    65' Martial
    21 oktober 2015
    20:45 uur
    Wolfsburg 2 – 0 PSV Volkswagen-Arena, Wolfsburg
    Toeschouwers: 23.375
    Scheidsrechter: Alberto Undiano
    Dost 46'
    Kruse 57'

    3 november 2015
    20:45 uur
    Manchester United 1 – 0 CSKA Moskou Old Trafford, Manchester
    Toeschouwers: 75.165
    Scheidsrechter: Szymon Marciniak
    Rooney 79'

    3 november 2015
    20:45 uur
    PSV 2 – 0 Wolfsburg Philips Stadion, Eindhoven
    Toeschouwers: 35.000
    Scheidsrechter: Jonas Eriksson
    Locadia 56'
    De Jong 86'

    25 november 2015
    18:00 uur
    CSKA Moskou 0 – 2 Wolfsburg Arena Chimki, Chimki
    Toeschouwers: 16.450
    Scheidsrechter: Gianluca Rocchi


    67' (e.d.) Akinfejev
    88' Schürrle
    25 november 2015
    20:45 uur
    Manchester United 0 – 0 PSV Old Trafford, Manchester
    Toeschouwers: 75.321
    Scheidsrechter: Pavel Královec



    8 december 2015
    20:45 uur
    Wolfsburg 3 – 2 Manchester United Volkswagen-Arena, Wolfsburg
    Toeschouwers: 26.400
    Scheidsrechter: Milorad Mažić
    Naldo 13', 84'
    Vieirinha 29'
    10' Martial
    82' (e.d.) Guilavogui
    8 december 2015
    20:45 uur
    PSV 2 – 1 CSKA Moskou Philips Stadion, Eindhoven
    Toeschouwers: 34.000
    Scheidsrechter: David Fernández
     
  18. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    I completely overlooked that, but even better so that i did for you, because right now you are taking Van Gaal's Manchester United exist as an example of the biggest surprise in UCL in recent years, which is a huge surprise, cuze, as we all know, that that mighty United was a prime favorite for the UCL title that season.
    It just further proves my point that group stages are pointless and complete waste of time because nothing major happens in it.

    Dear feynoordsomething, that United team finished 5th that season in epl. It is a bigger surprise the Tottenham's exist last season in group stage than that.
     
  19. Mmmm, so it wasnot a big surprise PSV took Atletico Madrid to extra time and penalty shoot out in Madrid without Atl. M. able to beat them, or was Atletico a mickymouse club too? Wasnot that team in the Final after beating both Barcelona and Bayern Munchen?
    So dear Sexysometyhing, your still loosing this contest. I give you a surprise team in the 2015-2016 CL that gave the later finalist a run for their money thay only won by one penalty in the shoot out and your moaning about a Manchester being 5th in the EPL, with still a budget 6-7 times higher than PSV?
    And that's just one example, but you cannot admit you're slapped in your face with your stance about surprises donot take place.
     
  20. Oh..and by the way, sexysomething...you do what a top coach once called scoreboard journalism, meaning you only look at the end result, but not at how hard a fight the winner had to deliver to overcome a hurdle. Surprises arenot only what ends on the score board, but also the way a club had to go to get there.
     
  21. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    You don't know much about probablities, do you?
     
  22. You're now trying to mask your defeat with insinuations about my knowledge level. For your information I'm a graduate in economics of the Erasmus University and you donot get the title without thorough knowledge of statistics and probabilities.
    Just respond to the facts I presented and donot change the subject you yourself did put on the table.
     
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  23. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    The concern is that there are fewer and fewer surprises as the years pass by. A decade or so ago even a top 5 team in Europe could go out in the group stages. 3-4 years ago maybe a top 5 team would have a major scare, but still survive.

    Lately it seems that the favorites not only advance but do so with absolute ease. Last season, for instance, after just 4 group games all hope was already lost of seeing a top team get eliminated. And when I say “top team” I’m not just talking about Madrid, Bayern, Juve and Barca. I’m speaking of the likes of PSG, Man City, Atletico and Dortmund as well. The 2015-16 group stage was similar.
     
  24. Well, that concern is shared by me. But in the end only one can win, so it's the journy that matters for the most and that can be as well a wonderful experience for a club that doesnot belong to the potential winners. When one eliminate that, like sexysomething proposes, it eliminates something essential, the romantic of the possibility of the fight and thus the chance to rise to the occasion and win it.
     
  25. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    #75 Sexy Beast, Sep 20, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    No, you don't understand. With the way you define "surprise", everything that isn't the most likely outcome is a surprise for you, which is wrong, because you are ignoring whole concept of probabilities.

    Let me explain. With the way you are thinking, everytime Barcelona and Real don't finish la liga with 37-0-1 is a surprise season to you, but is it in reality?
    If we are strickly speaking, both teams are favorites in every single la liga game except in el clasicos where each of them is a favorite in a home game and the way you have put standards, anything but them winning all games is a surprise. That's wrong way of thinking because, despite the fact that Barcelona/Real winning an away game vs Sevilla, Sociedad, Valencia, Villarreal(..) is the most likely outcome, it's unreasonable to think they would win them all. It would be a bigger surprise, if all "the most likely events" actually happened, than it would be, for example, Monaco winning a Champions league, but seriously it would. That's why we have seen only one the invincibles, and many more "surprises" on champions league level.

    Probability of not having any slight surprise in a tournament is extremely low and irrational to expect, that why the best teams in the world lose eventually, or in this case "Atletico struggling vs PSV". The result perfectly goes within the norm of an expected outcome despite not being the most likely (the most expected) outcome for that particular game.
    There is no a fine line that separates surprising and unsurprising events so it might seem abstract at first, but it definitely exists, just that it depends on how we define surprise.

    In summary, the same way we can predict what will happen in a game in terms of probabilities, we can predict how many time our initial predictions will be correct also in terms of probabilities and having a slight deviation in the second prediction is completely rational way of describing things and actually the most accurate. There are higher chances that the initial most likely predictions will be wrong majority of time rather than right. That's the same reason why you can't just bet on the most likely scenario every single time and expect to get rich, you won't.
    Slight surprises are not that surprising at all, but rather an actual reality.
     

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