Is it time to split apart the Top 6 leagues in UEFA from the rest?

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by iggymcfly, Dec 5, 2016.

  1. If real reforming the CL is the point, it should be a real CL, with the runners up from the strong leagues. So no country with more than two contenders. The other teams that now come in the CL other than the "chosen ones" can go to the Europa league with the prize to become finalists both go into the CL next season. That will definitely change the attitude for the EL, as it is a doorway to the CL, while another one has been closed.
     
    toronto_soccer repped this.
  2. Gio-13

    Gio-13 Member

    Aug 26, 2007
    watching skywalkers
    Club:
    FC Shakhtar Donetsk
    I find your lack of vision disturbing. You are clearly didn't followed results and their game.
     
  3. iggymcfly

    iggymcfly Member

    Jun 20, 2014
    No there weren't. And even including last year, you have 4/25 teams from small leagues advancing to the R16 compared to 28/39 from big leagues. It's not exactly a success story.

    Listen, I'd like to see the small teams do better. If I could wave a magic wand and see them be live dogs that could make a run to the semis every now and then, I'd be all about having them represented in the competition. The atmosphere for a team like Celtic in a big match is hard to replicate.

    But when the top teams are advancing year after year after year without any sweat, and you get small teams finishing in the bottom half of every single group and going years without making the quarters, and you get an entire last match day full of dead rubbers, something needs to change.
     
  4. shizzle787

    shizzle787 Member

    Apr 27, 2015
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    United States
    *10 different countries were represented. Same point.
     
  5. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    Gibraltar
    #30 Boloni86, Dec 11, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
    This thread is nonsense. The reason clubs like PSV or Celtic or Basel didn't advance is because they're losing to the normal clubs from the "top 6 league". They're playing the likes of Bayern, Barcelona and PSG. That's going to be a tough proposition even for a 2nd tier club from a top 6 league. Would Everton really qualify ahead of Bayern and Atletico? Would they qualify ahead of Real Madrid and Dortmund? The answer is no.

    Might as well spread the wealth. UEFA has a mandate to expand the appeal of professional football throughout the continent. Champions league is a big reason why clubs like Olympiacos, Basel, Ajax etc ... can stay strong and attract lots of fans and quality players. You take this away and you're practically killing the sport in 80% of the continent.

    Europa League is great, but only as a compliment to Champions League. What gives the tournament appeal is that every year you're going to have a few super clubs come around like Inter and Manchester United. And the fact that winning the tournament can now be a backdoor to get into Champions League.

    I think UEFA has a pretty good balance right now. I'd be OK with some changes around the fringes ... like for example maybe limiting the number of clubs that get in through the Champions route to 2 clubs. That might get rid of a couple of minnows and replace them with bigger clubs to make the groups more competitive.
     
    verde-rubro and Skandal!!! repped this.
  6. iggymcfly

    iggymcfly Member

    Jun 20, 2014
    Everton would be much more competitive, but no they would probably have almost no chance of qualifying from those particular groups either. That's why I think the real problem is the 32-team group stage. They need to do the group stage later in the competition when you're left with more top teams. Playing 6 games to find out whether Bayern and Atletico are better than Rostov and PSV is just ridiculous.
     
  7. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    Gibraltar
    Here's a list of examples of non top 6 finishing ahead of top 6 in last few years :

    2015/16 - Zenit/Valencia, PSV/Man United, Kiev/Porto
    2014/15 - Basel/Liverpool, Donetsk/Bilbao
    2013/14 - Galatasaray/Juventus, Olympiacos/Benfica, Zenit/Porto
    2012/13 - Donetsk/Chelsea, Celtic/Benfica, Galatasaray/Braga
    2011/12 - CSKA/Lille, Basel/Man United, Zenit/Porto
    2010/11 - Donetsk/Braga
    2009/10 - CSKA/Wolfsburg
    2008/09 - Panathinaikos/Bremen
    2007/08 - Olympiacos/Bremen, Celtic/Benfica
    2006/07 - PSV/Bordeaux, Celtic/Benfica
    2005/06 - PSV/Schalke, Rangers/Porto

    On average a non top 6 club prevails over a top 6 club twice per season. Some clubs like PSV, Olympiacos, Celtic, Donetsk, CSKA, Basel, Galatasaray and Zenit have done it on more than one occasion so it's not exactly a fluke. Those types of clubs deserve to be in this competition.

    Like I said ... if anything I would tighten the champions route a little bit to make it harder for clubs like Dinamo Zagreb to get in. It doesn't do any good to have a competitor that finishes group with 0 points.
     
  8. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL BigSoccer Yellow Card

    May 4, 2009
    Blame the populace.

    There is nothing wrong with KO rounds to get to the last 6, then a 6 team group stage to determine Europe's best. 5 home, 5 away. But then fans, especially in the u.s. and a, will get bored. Fans prefer KOs at the end, that brings in more $$$. They don't like it if someone can clinch the title while not even playing.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Let's just form an A tournament and a B tournament just like ice hockey and basketball.

    One advantage will be that we will get rid of the joke referees, who are just there to protect the other cartel members. Everyone with an objective look knows that there's something wrong with the officiating.
     
  10. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    That final is of no interest to me. Why not play against kindergarden teams, surely we will dominate? Besides, who cares about what happened in the last decade. Last year matters the stuff before it does not.
     
  11. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    Tournament B makes absolutely no sense. What is it you're competing for? 33rd place?

    I ain't watching Tournament B eve n if my club is there. And I am not watching Tournament A if my club can not compete there.
     
  12. Alfie George

    Alfie George New Member

    Liverpool
    England
    May 29, 2017
    I agree, leagues that are not competitive enough should never be part of Champions League. If the top 6 clubs of top 6 leagues are given entry to Champions League than it will make the competition much more interesting and competitive.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    *Conspiracy accomplished*
     
  14. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    That's what the qualifying rounds are for. The best clubs shouldn't have to face the champion of the 30th or 40th best league, and they don't have to unless the champion of the 30th or 40th best league beats champions of better leagues in the qualifying rounds. All champions should have access to it. Cyprus was 21st in the country coefficients for the five seasons ending 2009-2010, which determined access to 2011-2012 competitions. In 2011-2012 APOEL Nicosia advanced through three qualifying rounds, the Group Stage, and the Round of 16 before losing both Quarterfinal legs against Real Madrid by 3 goals. If 20 or fewer leagues had access to the Champions League, APOEL Nicosia wouldn't have been invited.
     
  15. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    I have a feeling that when you typed this you were thinking of Man United and Arsenal. But obviously the champion of Portugal (currently the 7th best league) is stronger than the 6th place team in Russia. In fact the top 2 in Portugal would generally be stronger than the 4th-6th teams in pretty much any league.

    So no it wouldn't become more competitive. Just the opposite in fact.

    Also it wouldn't be more interesting. As it stands, the knockout stages are almost entirely composed of teams from the top six leagues anyway.

    In any case, I don't think this was what the original poster was suggesting. He was more of the thought to make the group stage more competitive by reducing it to 16 teams.
     
    verde-rubro and EvanJ repped this.
  16. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I don't really have much of an opinion on changing the format, but one thing they need to do is simply seed the top 8 sides at th elast 16 stage and then a random draw the rest of the way in, who cares if Real Madrid draw barcelona or Man city craw chelsea. Let ie happen. It'll give more variety to the quarters and semis, I reckon .....
     
  17. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I would have to dispute that bit I underlined. Porto and Benfica,etc would be weaker than Arsenal and Man Utd ??? nah.....
     
  18. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL BigSoccer Yellow Card

    May 4, 2009
    I say they let the top 8 seeds choose their octofinal opponent. #1 seed gets first pick, and so on.
     
  19. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    There are 8 top seeds after the group stage (i.e. 8 teams that won their group) and no legit way to separate them unless you take into account results from previous seasons. So what you propose doesn't really work in practice...
     
  20. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL BigSoccer Yellow Card

    May 4, 2009
    There is a legit way to separate them:

    1.points
    2.GD
    3.goals scored
    4.shots on target
    5.time of possession
    6.seed alphabetically if 1-5 are all equal
     
  21. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    That's a legit way to separate them? May I remind you that the 6 played matches that you're compiling those stats from are against completely different teams?

    Of course if they were playing against the same teams, then alphabetical order of club names is a great way to rank teams. You should copyright that seeding format before FIFA steals it! I just wouldn't want to be a fan of Zwolle PEC. :cry:
     
  22. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL BigSoccer Yellow Card

    May 4, 2009
    The first 5 criteria would have to be tied to go to the alphabet option. Which means it would never happen

    Yeah, it's against separate teams, but so what. Better than the random draw.
     
  23. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Better for who? Draws generate more talk which in essence gives the competition more attention from fans. Copa Libertadores used to rank teams similar to what you are describing and they got rid of that process.
     
  24. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    It could also generate talk and affect clubs' strategies before the last Group Stage matchday if the winners were being ranked relative to each other. For example, Club X could know they need a draw to win their group and a win doesn't help them more than a draw, but a win would help them more than a draw if they were being compared to other group winners. Ranking the group winners could also reduce the amount of times when the top clubs don't use their best players against a club that should be easy to beat like Ludogorets Razgrad.
     
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  25. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    It might help increase incentive marginally but I don't think it helps enough to the point that it really adds interest to the final group stage games. Nobody is going to risk an important player getting a costly yellow card in the 6th group game if they've already clinched first, imo.
    And it would lead to the same teams meeting in the knockout phase over-and-over. So I wouldn't be in favor of it.
     

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