[International Friendly] Korea vs Bosnia Herzegovina 2018/06/01 [R]

Discussion in 'Korea' started by Seol Korea, May 30, 2018.

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  1. The Hyphen

    The Hyphen Member+

    Jun 29, 2014

    Listen anyone who’s been a fan of this shitty national team for over nearly 3 decades is probably jaded AF and can see clearly that it’s time for a federation overhaul not just dummy they happen to put in the easy scapegoat position. Sure you want to shit all over his picks you have that right but this IMO is the worst talent pool we’ve had in over two decades if not more. It’s not like your picks are going to make much difference at this point and to think that’s going to translate into a group topping is grandiose. I’m not being negative just a realist. That d line is getting trampled just like 2014 whether you like it or not so shitting on the manager in a constant motion of whine translates to static fuzz as far as I’m concerned.

    Shin TY is completely in over his head and that’s mostly because nobody wants this post and the federation, which seems to muster the same friendly teams year in year out, is completelly inept. We need an overhaul now.
     
  2. Saba Risto

    Saba Risto Member

    Jul 18, 2013
    Club:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    Tells someone to stop constantly bitching about the manager. Constantly bitches about talent pool. We do not have an amazing talent pool. We do not expect to perform at the world cup considering the cards we have been dealt. But asking for a manager who could put what little talent we have to good use seems like a valid request. Not this completely clueless, inept, yet entitled dumbass
     
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  3. Ice cube

    Ice cube Member+

    May 4, 2014
    Club:
    Incheon United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I know :ROFLMAO: dude bitches about people bitching about manager, then proceeds to bitch about everything else (players, KFA, BSK posters) as though no one else has ever talked about them here
     
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  4. Ice cube

    Ice cube Member+

    May 4, 2014
    Club:
    Incheon United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Have you been living under a rock? Who has ever said that the manager is the only "dummy" that needs to be overhauled? You don't see people lament daily about how bad our pool is and how we still have morons like Kim Hogon in positions of power? While we're at it, who has ever suggested we could top the group?

    Fwiw, I became pretty resigned to our fate when with just a year to go to the WC, Stielike was still in charge. The KFA didn't learn their lesson and again hung onto a subpar manager until it was too late. I never expected much of STY, if only because of how little time he was given. That's why I just cba too much about what he's doing.

    That being said, that shouldn't give STY free reign to muck around, with the excuse of 'well we're in a shit situation anyway'. Surely the goal of the manager should be to maximize whatever little chance of success we have. I just can't agree (for example) that, this close to the tournament, switching to a new formation that most of our players are not particularly used to or suited to is maximizing our chances. STY is taking a bad situation and making it worse. That's what people are upset about, not that we won't achieve a "group topping". If nothing else, I hope you can see that.
     
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  5. wetcrispy

    wetcrispy Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 5, 2007
    hollywoo
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Not defending STY but pointing out #facts.

    We've played 3 back before with STY multiple times. Bosnia wasn't the first time we've tried this under STY.

    KSY has played CB before for club and country. Yes, it's not his natural position but no one here knows if he had poor instructions from STY or if he had a bad game executing what STY may have wanted. He was invisible in building up the attack from CB, and made defensive mistakes but the reasoning to put him at CB wasn't totally bunk, just because we ended up losing to 3 clinical finishes.

    Opinions:
    Like it or not, JWY seems pegged on as a CM and he and KSY have repeatedly shown to not be a great partnership in midfield since they're neither athletic enough to cover space on defense, nor good tacklers.

    KMW was poor defensively but I prefer his workrate over HC's. Every other LB/FB candidate has made defensive mistakes like that routinely and at this point, i'm beginning to expect either of our FB/WB to have poor positions or miss a clearance one or twice a match.

    You can't be mad at FB/WB selection when they've each been so inconsistent with defense and crossing in the last 4+ years. HC, KJS, KMW; KYH, LY, CCS are all essentially the same caliber player- prone to defensive mistakes against WC-caliber sides and having their crosses blocked.

    Calibrate expectations netizens. Knt will never play the ideal and seemingly coherent style of play that fans expect. NEVER. Hiddink was met with plenty of critics as well.
     
  6. LeeSeungWoo

    LeeSeungWoo Member+

    Jun 3, 2016
    STY's 3 back formation with KSY in the back worked pretty well against Uruguay when he was an interim manager bf SHITLIKE came...

    Anyhow, it looks like LYP thinks 3 back formation is inevitable + necessary against Sweden but he thinks we should go for counterattacks.
     
  7. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I didn't think he was that bad compared to Lee Yong. Excluding the poor clearance in the 1st goal, there wasn't much he could do with 2nd and 3rd goal. The spacing of the 3 CBs were a big issue.. not helped by their inability to cover for fullbacks + quickly turning the ball over to Bosnia. Another issue was with poor pressure in midfield (especially on the side of Lee Yong).

    The issue w/ Ki SY as CB... he played it once for country & club before Bosnia. Also.. under different circumstance w/ different role compared to he was tasked/asked to do vs Bosnia. Anyways, it was an experiment with Jang HS to fill in mind at the WC (another issue I have).
     
  8. The Hyphen

    The Hyphen Member+

    Jun 29, 2014
    #358 The Hyphen, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
    Whelp. Agree to disagree at this point. I don’t feel keying in on STYs deficiencies is especially beneficial for anyone here especially at this point and in the long run takes away from the real problems for this team. Not at this point especially and it’s not like the naysayers ever comeback and say wow that actually worked for any chances he’s taken or plans to take. All just negative discussion. He’s unsuited for this role and was chosen because the federation is inept. And so now he’s doing the best he can with the talent he has to work with. I commend for experimenting with this crew and doing HIS best. His career will likely be shot for some time after this. Hell HMB might’ve permanently tarnished his own luster with his gambling

    I’m a big believer in conditioning (psychological ) and the effects it has on socialization and i think this constant discussion is more harmful than good. This not seeing the forest thru the trees business that seems so prevalent. How else do you explain that some of the top posters here continue to insinuate that this team is more talented than previous teams including 06’? We have one world class player, 1or 2 above aversge talents on the wane, a couple of seriously overrated players (e.g Koo) and the rest just trying to make a name for themselves and little else). D line is as shaky as ever and that’s just a talent perective The realist in me says this team is going to get embarrassed. I see quite a few posters using soccer math to predict better results but I think we are all fairly familiar with Mexico and no matter what they do in friendless they always seem to manage to turn it up several notches.

    IMO, Constantly Scapegoating the manager only perpetuates this horseshit until the next unsuited manager is hired ...rinse repeat cycle
     
  9. Ice cube

    Ice cube Member+

    May 4, 2014
    Club:
    Incheon United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    But I think what STY is doing is "gambling". It isn't the first time that STY has tried 3-back, that is true, but that hardly makes it a formation our players are familiar with. I'm not ruling out the possibility it could work. In fact, I would love to be wrong. Sometimes you should gamble. But what do we gain by moving Ki away from midfield and into defense, and what do we lose?

    It's funny you mention HMB, because I think HMB was gambling less than STY is now. HMB just took the group of players he knew best from the Olympics and played them in the formation that he and the players were most used to, and one that I think most people here would consider to be the default for that squad. Rotating GKs and trying out new formations, for example, is more risk-taking than what HMB showed. We'll see if it works.
     
  10. Hodori

    Hodori BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Aug 12, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Yes. Since you bask in your ignorance and wax on lyrically about the past making it seem better than it really was, let's do a comparative analysis.

    I'm looking at the entire available talent pool, injuries included. We lack balance and veteran leadership of the 2006 squad. But on paper, on talent, it's about the same, if not better, in the aggregate, compared to 2006.

    Consider the WC 06 squad (with uninjured players):
    1. LWJ - getting fat. He was never good coming out for crosses. He was getting even worse by then as he came out for headers. Yes, he was vastly more experienced than our current keepers and had that mental edge. But did his positive attributes outweigh his decline vs. our current GKs? No. (Even)

    2. Kim Dong Jin/Kim Jin-Kyu/ Kim Sang-sik/Choi Jin-chul? Choi Jin Chul was stuck giving it his all even when he was just too old. We were willing him past his due date. As for the other three, do they inspire any faith? If not for LYP and PJS to cover, they were just as bad, if not worse than what we are dealing with now. Granted, our current defenders have mental issues and some like HJH threw away European careers or others like JHS used his exemption to cash out in China. But based on talent, they are about equal in their shitty tackling but better in ball handling than these 2006 CBs. (Even)

    3. LYP/Song CG - LYP was one of the pillars that we missed since 2010. But Song CG? His trajectory crashed after he left Feyenoord. On average, Kim JS and Park JH landed more softly than Song CG did after his return from Europe. But the advantage still goes to 2006 b/c of LYP. (Adv 06)

    4. PJS - at this point in his career, he had more experience than KCH. KCH's sparkling season just can't compare to PJS at this point. (Adv 06)

    5. Kim Nam Il/Lee EY - these two, I miss dearly. Their grit and their mental strength. But on paper, their careers simply cannot compare to the careers or KSY or KJC. KNI failed to get into Feyenoord and washed out of Excelsior. Lee EY was in Turkey. We have two starters with a long career in Germany. You can irrationally shit on KJC. Whatever. Your footballing knowledge, like many of topics is sorely lacking. So wax on lyrically about Seol KH and shit on KJC. The irony. (Adv 18)

    6. Lee Ho//Kim DH/Cho WH/Baek JH/Choi TW - what a shit group of players. Compare that to LJS, LCY, KBK, NTH, LCM, JWY. (Adv 18)

    7. LCS/AJH/PJY/SKH - PJY at that age is basically a wash with LSW. AJH by then was out of France and in Germany. His career never really took off again after WC02. LCS was a waste of talent. Seol KH was hot and cold but playing a level below what our current players played. Are they better than HHC, JDW or SHJ? No, the three of them have had longer and better scoring records and careers in European club football than LCS/AJH/SKH in 2006. (Adv 18).

    8. LDG - let's not even try to argue that he was more talented than SHM. (Adv 18).

    9. JJJ - we took triple shit to the WC. That's how thin the 2006 striker pool was. JJJ started in the world cup. He's worse than KSW. (Adv 18).
     
  11. sac517

    sac517 Member+

    May 23, 2005

    Assuming you addressed this to the hyphen, lol. Anyways, if you aggregate everyone (including people who are injured / weren't selected) then you have a case. I think it's close either way, but I have a few disagreements (mainly I think you are bending a few corners here and there to make your argument, and may be guilty of a little bit of recency bias):

    1. Kim Dong Jin was a more-than-adequate left back. He was quite highly regarded at the time and enjoyed decent success in Russia. KDJ in his prime (and 2006 was just about at his prime) was better than any of the turkeys we have now.

    2. Regarding midfielders, I'd agree the group from 2006 was lackluster but I don't think the gap between 06 and 18 is as large as you make it out to be. Kim Do Hyeon never quite had the timing / injuries work out for him, but from a technical ability standpoint, he was quite excellent. Lee Ho was in his prime in 2006 and was similarly fairly adequate on both sides of the pitch (he also should have had a couple of assists in the 06WC if not for poor finishing). But of the six MFs you mention in 18, three of them have an established track record of playing terribly for the NT, and one is a complete shell/ghost of his former self. Many of them are often the topic of mockery and ridicule whenever they are brought up. But I acknowledge you are arguing from a pure talent perspective, but when they are just terrible for the NT or have lost all ability to demonstrate that talent, do they still count?

    3. You can't call LCS a waste of talent but then not have him tip the scales in favor of 2006 for this specific argument. By that logic, we can remove a ton of people who tip the scales in 2018. I notice with 2006, you factor in then-current form and age while for 2018 you are focused on talent only. Just think that's just bending the premise to strengthen your argument. If we really want to talk talent, PJY and LCS were true generational talents for KNT -- not sure I would place JDW, HHC in that category. Your no. 7 was the one with which I most disagreed.
     
  12. Hodori

    Hodori BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Aug 12, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Yes.

    Yes, I was trying to look at this from a talent perspective after a shortcut normalization process so that we can look at the variance between the comparison sets. So the normalization may look like (or in fact be) a bit of recency bias as the current players are playing where they are now.

    I never understood with Advocaat took him to Zenit. I think he had the stamina, until his heart gave out, but never really was really skillful imo. I rate KJS over him personally.

    I think this is my problem. From a talent perspective, we are better in this area of the pitch than in the past. We have more players playing at higher levels. Yet they were wasted and never integrated during the last 4 years/WCQ cycle. It was a completely wasted opportunity.

    I disagree. I'm looking at HHC, SHJ and JDW at the current point in their careers rather than their absolute talent. SHJ and JDW are entering their prime. HHC is in the earlier stages of his European career.

    Yes, PJY and LCS were generational talents. But in 2006, LCS was on his comeback from his European setback. And PJY was at the same age as LSW and emerging as a professional at FC Seoul. I don't think LCS at the time in 2006 tipped the scales. Based on pure talent, without any normalization, the two of them far outstrip the others, but when normalized, the differences are very small with an edge imo to the 2018 group, provided, I equally understand your arguments tipping the scales towards the 2006 group in this category.
     
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  13. toohyper

    toohyper BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 23, 2004
    MI/NJ/NY
    Club:
    Gwangju FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    You're not wrong, but we have nobody in our pool that brings defensive toughness and defensive competency like Kim Nam Il. Koo and Ki are neither of those guys, and while I like Go YoHan in that DM role, he's not Kim Nam Il either.
     
  14. The Hyphen

    The Hyphen Member+

    Jun 29, 2014
    Thanks for taking the time to do this. Id take this team over the current in an absolute HEARTBEAT. Especially that Dline....sadly enough.
     
  15. The Hyphen

    The Hyphen Member+

    Jun 29, 2014
    I appreciate STY moving ki to his original position with the NT because it keys in on one of his bigger strengths that has gone dead over the years: his ability to spray balls from all angles and distances in order to launch counters which is one of our few strengths that has been the basis of the team strategy. Obviously it’s going to work better against some teams and not so well with others depending on their pressing ability and proficiency and speed on attack but I’m actually looking forward to this. Obviously STY is going to have to make adjustments if it doesn’t work out but I see where he’s going with this.

    If it’s one complaint I have about ki it’s how one of his bigger talents got muffled over the years.
     
  16. Hodori

    Hodori BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Aug 12, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Personally, I view our biggest failure since WC02 to be the failure to advance youth and club football overall. We should have used that tournament as a turning point to become a better footballing nation... That would have meant decent competition and selection options in all positions. Instead, we continued on as a galagopos nation of sorts developing solid options with good European experience in some positions while becoming worse in other positions.

    Thus, we're about where we were 12 years ago in terms of talent pool; on paper, even better than before... Yet the sum or the pieces is even worse. We have a poorly constructed team made to look even worse when playing formation/tactics that we are ill-equipped to play. With the bin parts we have available, it's the negligence of the KFA and its managers to have made us even worse than what we could be, which is about similar to where we should be in WC06 or possibly WC10.
     
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  17. Chucky2202

    Chucky2202 Red Card

    Nov 24, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Reunion
    4.25 vs FC Seoul can't happen fast enough. This'll definitely bring a sense of rivalry and interest back to football.
     
  18. killaorca

    killaorca Red Card

    AFC Ajax
    May 11, 2010
    Pacific Ocean
    Club:
    RSC Anderlecht
    I hope we can some how repeat the same result as WC 2002 miraculously so we can finally implement some important changes with public support. But sadly that's easier said than done.
    Tbf, the best chance was 2010 WC. The road to semi was Uruguay then Ghana. It's possibly the easiest road to semi but getting that same chance will take luck.
     
  19. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I think of it a bit as the uncanny valley for us, particularly in the development of defenders and managers, where as we have progressed and improved, the flaws that are there become more and more obvious.

    Old school defenders were fairly straightforward to develop... you get your biggest kids fight and let the toughest win. But as we've created more cultured defenders who can play with the ball at their feet and play in a more offensive role, we've lost all the tough guys.

    Same goes with managers where we just lined em up and played. Now we have guys like STY who actually try but now overthink the problem and also overrate their ability and try to coach like Mourinho or Pep. Of course their lack of experience and knowledge get exposed so easily.

    A broader and more varied domestic system would help but it seems really concentrated in just a few ideas and player types.
     
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  20. Rob_Brighton

    Rob_Brighton Red Card

    Nov 21, 2015
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Let's look at the bright side. Someone at the KFA must be doing a job if they noticed that two of Del Bosque's multiple title-winning assistants were not even employed. Probably Toni was deemed too old by those in Spain, but of course age seems rather irrelevant. I think it was a bit of a masterstroke (at least some measure of redemption after the Hiddink fiasco) myself, because you don't have to pay the enormous wages to assistants you would pay for a manager, and you don't keep a bit of continuity after the World Cup by staying with your current manager while letting the assistants go after they've offered their advice and designed the training regimen for the next year or two, which will help you get by until you have to hire new assistants.

    Without Toni and Javier, KNT would truly have no chance in hell.
     
  21. Rob_Brighton

    Rob_Brighton Red Card

    Nov 21, 2015
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    In my opinion, Ki should only be a bench option when a team has a lead or is trying to keep a draw. As he gets older, his one-dimensionality becomes more of a problem as he becomes less and less available for the pass. STY and his staff have sussed this out and have decided he can't be relied on on a position where he has to be too mobile. So in the three back system, they are trying to shepherd his defensive frailties while having two actual CBs beside him while allowing him to show his long-passing ability which is one of his few abilities. This way they can bypass an sorely lacking center midfield altogether with the aid of Kim Shin Wook. The 2006 comparisons are apt. Think of Kim as another Cho Jaejin.
     
  22. wrecklesssoldier

    Feb 20, 2005
    Defense took a sharp 180 and it seems it’ll keep getting worse unless KFA decides to pour some effort into developing solid defenders (which will probably never happen)
     

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