Ignore the blah, blah, blah - the Paul Pogba thread

So Jose says we were playing a 433 but with Lingard in midfield and doesn't see a problem with that? You're still setting Pogba up to fail by playing him with Lingard, a 10, in the 8 role that should be deeper in midfield. Pogba should be the furthest forward of the 3 and the other 8 needs to be a proper 8.

 

this is factually incorrect, it's not a matter of interpretation whether pogba was in a double pivot or not. you do see #31 way behind #6 and #8, right?

so we all agree that the goal post has been moved to "pogba was playing in a 4-2-3-1" to "he wasn't always on the left side of the 4-3-3 but sometimes on the right and therefore he played terrible"? ok, cook. i'm moving on lol.

 

Wait are you saying Lingard is the blame or Matic or both?

 

No offense but that graph means little to me. I've been trying to locate an actual heat map on Pogba for that game, as it would have more than likely settled this argument one way or another. Unfortunately, was not able to find one.
And I'll say it again, what I've seen from the game was a Pogba far from his optimal self. And it started with his position on the pitch. I have conceded already that perhaps Pogba was trying to do his own thing and didn't necessarily follow instructions.
The bottom line remains that, regardless of the reason (which I'm not privy to), Pogba, strictly from a positional sense, did not appear to be placed in an optimal position to succeed. And the presence of Lingard is really not the problem to me either: it appeared very clear that Lingard has been trying to phase him into a deeper role in midfield (with varied success). Vs Newcastle however, he did appear to take up a more advanced central position behind Lukaku, which further supports the belief he was deployed in the hole in this game.
When it's all said and done though, as stated ad nauseum, what I would hope to see in coming games, is seeing us play in a proper 4-3-3, with Pogba deployed wide left but with the latitude to move about as he pleases so he can really put his stamp on the attack. Partnering him in a holding role would be Matic or Carrick, sitting in front of the defense. With the 3rd mid, until this summer when we can get a proper 8, I'll settle for either one of McTominay, Lingard, Herrera or Fellaini (once they are fit again) depending on the circumstances and the opposition.
Have absolutely no problems catering to Pogba for the time being at least: he is one of our very best and as he goes, so does the team.

 

My argument has always been the same. To get the best out of Pogba he needs to play in a 433 with a proper 6 and a proper 8. Jose is admitting to playing him with a 6 and a 10 in a 433. You’re arguing semantics but the main point still remains...he’s not being played in a 433 with a proper 8 and 6. Based on your logic he should perform even if he’s played in a 433 with Romero and Ibrahimovic because it’s a 433 and he’s on the left side. That’s not how it works.

I will say Pogba had a bad game regardless of the formation and tactics. But the tactics and formation aren’t doing him any favors.

 

It also appears that other people saw the same thing as well, which is all the more odd really...

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-pogba-position-mourinho-14301046

 

Most of us are seeing the same thing, that Mourinho is misusing Pogba.

Mizzou's and Ashur's analysis is right now. If the objective is to get the best out of Pogba, Mourinho needs to go with a 433 Pogba in a free role, Matic as a 6 and "proper 8". Fine, we may not have that "proper 8". But Pogba is being misused nevertheless in a 4231.

What's interesting is that we had this debate about a year or so ago when JamesA argued that we should not bring in Griezmann because it would undermine Pogba's role in a 4231. The point I was trying to make, and still hold, is that Pogba and the squad are better served by going with a 433 and that Griezmann could slip in easily on the left or in a central position on the front line. True, this debate took place when we had Ibra in the squad and Ibra was scoring for fun and that Ibra really only works in a 4231 or maybe a 352. But everyone knew Ibra wouldn't be around much longer. So we brought in Lukaku last summer, since Griezmann took himself off the market, and here we are. But where we are is that Lukaku can work successfully in a 433, provided that Pogba is properly unleashed. Mourinho kept Fellaini, who's never an 8, and he's misused Pogba in a mid 2 with Matic. Even though he's been misused and even though he's missed a third of the season, Pogba still has an impressive number of assists, but his goal production is down and a player with Pogba's mental and physical attributes needs to score goals to remain happy. He doesn't need to be sitting back with Matic even though he has a brilliant long passing game in his quiver.

Anyway, a manager should be given some leash to retrain role players into new roles he needs them to serve, but to retrain Pogba into a defensive midfielder is a colossal mistake. You push him back to a 6 late in his career but the man will be 25 in a month and is (or should be) at the peak his powers as a footballer and there's simply no question whatsoever that Pogba is much more valuable as an attacking force than as a defensive midfielder.

It's not too late for Jose to get it right, but if he persists with misusing Pogba we might as well sell him to Real.

 

A look at the Pogba situation and how it can be fixed.

www.mufclatest.com/lets-talk-about-paul-pogba

 

Scholes retired>Pogba

 

Pogba's professionalism as been praised by Mourinho.

www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/11263446/paul-pogbas-professionalism-praised-by-man-utd-boss-jose-mourinho

 

I'm starting to get exceedingly worried about our handling of talented players and what the atmosphere is like at the club in that regard.

Even going back to LvG and Di Maria, it seems that we get these gifted players, in many cases they start strong but eventually they fade.

I'm actually really nervous about Pogba because I don't see Mourinho being here too many years down the line. We already let that kid go once, only to see him flourish elsewhere. We signed him at enormous expense.

I've never ever had this attitude about players over managers before, but I actually feel like it's more important to get the very best out of this guy than to tailor our signings to Mourinho's strategies.

I'm very interested in how Alexis progresses. If he doesn't catch fire here, then something's wrong. If that's purely down to the management team, or if there is something stagnant in our overall club culture, I don't know.

But if it's a choice between persevering with whatever Mourinho's 'vision' is and keeping Pogba, I might be more inclined to (and I can hardly believe I'm thinking this) sack Mourinho.

 

The choice between Jose and Pogba will be as straightforward as it comes when it comes to Woodward and the board. Pogba, even more so than ADM (who we need to remember did not really want to come to United in the first place) is an extremely valuable asset to the club, in terms of the player he is/can become, but he's also one of the biggest commodities we have from a commercial point of view as well.
I really don't see how Jose could ever be chosen over Pogba, unless his behavior and actions are such that the club has no choice. But all things considered, Jose will always be the one out, if it comes down to one or the other.
Not even worried about that, just a little bit tbph. The fact indeed that we got egg on our face once previously when he left for Juve, with the fact that he's our record signing, coupled with his marketing value to us, there's no way Woodward is letting him go. Not really the same situation, but Rooney is proof of how big a player's reach can be and how far a club like United will go to keep him.

 

#********mou

 

I was looking to find out what Pogba's history was with his NT, and googled into a buzzsaw of negative press about him.

Jamie Carragher -- Paul Pogba does not deserve to be indulged at Manchester United - he isn't good enough yet

Gary Neville compares struggling Manchester United star Paul Pogba to his former teammate Juan Sebastian Veron

Eamon Dunphy (jeez, is he still around?) Believes "Sad Story" Of Pogba Is Beyond Repair. (This is the guy who was sure that Ronaldo would never amount to anything.)

Manchester United greats Roy Keane and Paul Scholes disagree about Paul Pogba -- Keane says you can't blame Pogba for Utd's issues, Scholes is negative (no love lost there apparently).

Anyway, criticism of Utd (manager, players, probably the quality of beer) is a full time sport at the moment.

Oh, and for what I was looking for, what's going on with Pogba and his NT? Doesn't look like he's getting called up often.

 

Doesn't look like he's getting called often in the French national team. Really? He's got to be one of Deschamps's first names when he's healthy, which hasn't always been the case this season alone. Closing in on 50 caps (49 ATM) at just 24 is not that much indeed...

It's no surprise that the press is on this Pogba story non stop. The biggest player in England's biggest team: this is gold for the Brit media. Fully expected this and it will continue as long as he's struggling to find form (or there's a hint of bad blood w/Jose).
He needs to step up, deal with whatever is bothering him and put some good displays as quickly as possible, especially with some massive games coming up. It's the most effective (and quickest) way to change the narrative about him, obviously.

 

Lynne, simple wiki search would tell you he already has 49 caps at 24 years old.

 

Lynne, some of your comments/arguments in recent weeks have been all over the place. Not a lick of sense being made.

 

sorry, must have read it wrong. So how does he do with the NT? Is it similar to how he plays at Utd or different?

 

He's ok with France, but they're definitely not getting the best of him either because Deschamps is playing him the majority of the time in a mid 2, alongside Kante.
With him though, still showed he's not completely useless but it's still not consistently vintage Pogba (as he was with Juventus for instance).

 

I think its pretty much the same as with us so far. Maybe slightly better.

 

There is an agenda against Pogba - Hargreaves

www.goal.com/en/news/hargreaves-claims-agenda-against-pogba-tells-man-utd-to-sort/fgvoprcm5c2x1j77b4nmxkbd3