Ignore the blah, blah, blah - the Paul Pogba thread

"I think the press are expecting me to be a defender, a midfielder and a striker," says Paul Pogba. "I just have to focus on my job." #MUFC pic.twitter.com/zoGKsrS7vQ

— Manchester United (@ManUtd) April 12, 2017

 

Some of the media have put an unrealistic expectation on him, this is true, but at the same time he hasn't performed as an elite midfielder this season either. He's done okay on the whole, scattered with some excellent and dire performances. We can blame the fact that the team as a whole has gradually gotten worse (which makes it more difficult for good players to shine)...but I've seen his own level drop over these past few months. The confidence seems to have gone, and it seems like he feels the weight to change things for the team..which is affecting his decision making and speed of play. The second season should enable us to see where we are at with him.

 

He's not wrong. His performances haven't been helped by the change in formation but he was doing well enough when we were playing with 3 mids.
Some have been on his case because he hasn't recorded tons of goals and assists. But not only he's arguably been unlucky in both depts (hit the woodwork close to 10x so far and he missed out on assists because of his teammate's poor finishing).
He's had his issues there as well to be honest, but there is no doubt that the transfer fee is a factor, whether it's fair or not, that permeates over everything he does.

 

Pogba is correct. There are a lot of unrealistic expectations on him based on ignorance of his game and utilisation. His underlying numbers are fine. Not only is he posting league and club leading numbers in all the passing metrics and chance creation he is one of the best for the defensive metrics. He was actually posting improved numbers compared to his last Juventus season. Clearly he should have more goals and assists but has been unfortunate with the woodwork and the likes of Ibrahimovic blowing chances. Defensively he is on a par with Herrera. Could he do more? Possibly but he is adapting to the added defensive responsibility in a midfield duo and he is not a one man team.

 

Teso's comments are well taken in this case. Pogba has been both unfortunate in that he's hit the woodwork a crazy number of times but he's also missed a number of very good chances he should have hit -- such as the perfect ball Ibra gave him near the end of the Sunderland match. But he's actually been pretty decent in his midfield defensive duties and at times inspired in his long passing.

Where Pogba has gone awry in his back third defensive duties, especially on set pieces. Earlier in the season we conceded a goal on a corner kick and at first I assigned most of the blame on Valencia but at Ruud's (the poster) insistence I accepted the truth that Pogba was derelict in his defensive duty on the play, thus putting Valencia in a bad position. Pogba also had the bizarre handball which led to a pk. The weakest aspect of Pogba's game is defending in his box, a deficiency that can be overcome in time. But his transition and attacking play has been pretty good and at times fantastic. More to come. Not worried at all about him.

 

Everything he said is right. Fans and pundits expected him to be some combo of Yaya and Vieira because they've never seen him before. People expected him to somehow become a perfect 2 man midfield player when he'd never done that before. It's bullshit. If we actually gave him a platform to succeed, he'd ball out.

 

Yeah, Pogba has been elite most of the season. Idiot pundits think he isn't playing well because he isn't scoring but fail to note how many chances he creates or balls he recovers or duels he wins etc.

 

i feel like some posters are using a straw man argument here. yes, pogba has been unlucky with goals but it would be intellectually dishonest to frame his criticism in the media has JUST his lack of goals.

media pundits have also criticized the fact that he sometimes drifts out of games, his cluelessness on defensive set pieces, and his tendency to lose the ball in very dangerous situations near his own box. all of that is legit, to me.

he's been ok, nowhere near elite. which was to be expected in a transition year. i'm not down on him at all but let's not get too defensive on this. and price tags do matter in public perception. bitching about it is not the way to go for him.

 

That's why I said this in my post above:

"..but at the same time he hasn't performed as an elite midfielder this season either. He's done okay on the whole, scattered with some excellent and dire performances."

He has neither been as bad as portrayed in the media...or as good as some on here would have you believe. He is capable of better and more consistent performances, I would hope we all understand that.

 

I disagree. It is only legit is you are ignorant of his game and utilisation. Pundits cannot have it both ways. They praise Ibrahimovic without question even when he is not involved in games, creatively weak and missing chances yet criticise Pogba for his lack or goals, assists and attacking influence. At no point does it even cross their mind to link the two.

Pundits then compound this ignorance further by criticising Pogba when he is learning a completely new defensive role on the job. He is not going to magically become a defensive heading great nor is he going to simply punt balls to safety when his game is built upon ball retention and carrying the ball forward during transitions.

Finally pundits completely and conveniently ignore all of the things in between that Pogba leads either the club or league in doing.

The only legitimate criticism you can have of Pogba is his lack of goals which is a combination of misfortune, sub-optimal utilisation and some poor finishing. That is it. He has created. He has passed. He has intercepted. He has dribbled. Pogba has done everything expected of him, sacrificed his game in a new role and done it all in a failing team.

 

you bore me: you're so binary on every issue. people either agree with you or are ignorant - you're a child.

the pogba getting killed only for his lack of goals trope is inaccurate, it's not because you're choosing to absolve him of his other deficiencies that everyone else has to. who says he has to punt the ball? again, so binary. there are tons of solutions between brainlessly punting the ball and getting caught around your own box.

and zlatan is not "praised without question", you just made that position up to knock it down. there are articles on espnfc right now saying that united should let him go at the end of the year. it's easy to win arguments when you're drafing opposing talking points.

 

Facts are binary.

 

Now we understand the root of the problem with you, Teso. Although what's more likely is that you enjoy online trolling and serve up straw man and other ridiculous arguments for the sole purpose of attracting attention, attention which you probably don't receive in your corporeal existence.

Facts are far from "binary". Not to get too deep into Popperian theory, what is asserted to be a fact is a statement which is at first verifiable, and then second, verified. (How "verification" works is complicated, way over your head.)

For example, if Ashur asserts blue is the most beautiful color, the only "fact" in that statement isn't that blue is, in fact, the most beautiful clolor, but that Ashur asserted that blue is the most beautiful color. It is not even a "fact" that Ashur actually believes that blue is the most beautiful color. It is a "fact" (in my hypothetical example only, of course) asserted that blue is the most beautiful color, but we can't conclude that he actually believes that and we certainly can't conclude from that statement that blue is in fact the most beautiful color. As to why, the proposition that blue is the most beautiful color is not verifiable.

Beyond that Diable correctly observes that you make false claims, such as the claim that the media praise Ibra without question. The media have constantly questioned Ibra but also rightly observe that Ibra's goals have been crucial to the success we've enjoyed this season. As for Pogba, his lack of goals is one but not the only concern with his play this season. He does, sometimes, drift out of games. You can clearly see his class, but the problem with Pogba -- apart from his misfortune in hitting the wooddwork -- is that his class too seldom results in creating scoring chances.

I praise Pogba for his outstanding transition play and I criticize him for his poor defensive play in our own third but a fair criticism of him is that he's too often missing in the last phase of attacking play. As for what's expected of him, it's a "fact" that more is expected of Pogba yet at the same time it's very fair to describe his place as being very good. Just not good enough, especially considering that he commanded the highest transfer fee of any footballer in the history of the game. But I'm not at all worried that he won't show his full class next season.

Right now, all we need and should ask of Pogba and his teammates is to crawl over the goal line, in Steve Young fashion if need be, in Stockholm.

 

I'll only refer to the relevant parts of that post:

Pogba leads the team in chances created.

This comes down to expectations. If you want Pogba to be more involved in the final third, beyond leading the team in chances created and the woodwork hit, you need to stop using him in a double pivot and return to a 4-3-3.

---

Football can be as complicated or as simple as we want to make it. Let's make it simple. The team struggles for creativity and goals. Pogba's game involves creativity and goals. Why then are we forcing him into a defensive role in a double pivot instead of releasing him to play his game and help the team in the final third?

 

FTR I am more with Diable on this, but man this is an excellent fcuking point, one that I am not sure can argued against.

 

the counter is also very simple:
- let's not act like we haven't played a sizeable portion of the season in a 433: pogba had had plenty of minutes as lcm.
- i don't think we've been more creative as a team in a 433 vs 4231. pogba himself hasn't been that amazing in that system to prevent mourinho for switching to 4 attackers when he felt the situation warranted it.
- pogba's ineffectiveness in a double pivot is not merely down to schemes. he has holes in his game, and it's fair to point them out.

also, we should chill a bit on the woodwork talk: those are still misses, and some of them were actually badly hit and should have been sure goals. feels like a participation medal.

i'm not hating on pogba, is still believe he can become one of the best midfielders in the world. i just feel like you guys are trying to convince yourself that he's been very good this year - almost defiantly. he's been ok and i sure hope that he will be much better next year. no one outside of united fans is thinking that pogba is having a great year, theyre not all ignorant and theyre not all haters.

 

There is a lot of revisionism here given that Pogba has played in a double pivot behind Rooney, Mata and Mkhitaryan in a 4-2-3-1 and has been used himself as the advanced midfielder in that formation. Our use of 4-3-3 has been limited.

As for our creativity the fact that Pogba leads us for chances created and Ibrahimovic leads the entire league in shots taken suggests Pogba is not the problem. It highlights a failure in attack that has been consistent regardless of the system or combination of players used. In that situation the blame lies with Ibrahimovic primarily given he has the most outfield minutes at the club but also the underlying problems created by Mourinho with his defensive style of play.

The woodwork talk is merely a counter, along with the chances created figure, to the ridiculous claim that Pogba has not contributed or had an influence in the final third which is even more ridiculous given his use in a defensive double pivot.

Pogba has been good this season. His underlying numbers despite his shoddy utilisation is proof of it. Unfortunately the pundits and rival fans have an unrealistic expectation of him based on his price tag and watching YouTube compilation clips of his goal scoring. It is an expectation based on ignorance of his game which is why you get a lot of hot air and little talk of his utilisation being less than ideal.

 

the first part was never questioned: we've used 4231. the second part is a lie: our use of 433 has not been limited. we've gone back and forth between the two systems all year.

the rest of your argument is pure sophism (and kudos for managing to squeeze in some zlatan talk!). who exactly is suggesting that pogba is the "problem" with our offense? exactly no one - you're, again, making up talking points as you go.

if it makes you feel superior to claim that all criticism of pogba are based on price tag and youtube clips... sure, knock yourself out. this was a nuanced conversation about pogba's play this year but you're rather argue against extreme, made up positions that no one is putting forward. i'm not interested.

do you know who skip bayless is? you could make a lot of money on american sports tv.

 

You specifically stated in reference to 4-3-3 that Pogba has had "plenty of minutes as lcm" which I contest is incorrect as our use of 4-3-3 has been limited and even when we have used it Pogba was regularly used as the furthest forward midfield player ahead of a double pivot.

You specifically stated in reference to 4-3-3 and our creativity in particular that Pogba "hasn't been that amazing in that system to prevent mourinho for switching to 4 attackers" which clearly infers a belief that Pogba has not done enough in the final third to merit the system being retained which I again contest based on his chance creation.

The only "nuanced conversation about Pogba's play" has been from me and I have coincidentally been the only person here who has watched the majority of his career in Serie A and therefore actually knows and understands his game and utilisation.

As I have said to gatekeeper2 numerous times I am not going to to respond to any irrelevant comments and divisions.

 

Reasonable points but you're wrong, as usual. The simple explanation that I think even you might understand that is most clubs park the bus on us and when opposing clubs park the bus a 4231 really doesn't see the attacking club hold back their two defensive midfielders sit back when we have the ball in the last third.

Pogba is free to ghost in and we actually saw quite bit of that early in the season, but he's struggling now with his confidence in attacking positions. His play in the middle third is fantastic but he make things too complicated for himself in the last third. I'll join you in blaming it on Jose up to a point, but it's really up to Pogba himself to play on instinct in the last third. Rather than taking that third touch, as he too often does, he needs to keep it down to 1 or 2 touches. He's got a powerful long distance shot and early in the season he was taking those shots from too far out, but he scored one from just beyond the D on the first touch and he needs to be looking for that shot more often.

It would also help if his teammates could improve on their finishing from some of the sublime passes he's delivered. And I can think of two such passes off the time of my head that most players could never finish but were chances that Ibra was angry at himself for missing. You might recall one in November where Pogba dropped a lovely chip to Ibra inside the box but Ibra couldn't keep the volley down, somewhat like the ball Ibra dropped for Pogba (though from a header) that Pogba couldn't keep down.

No newsflash here, but poor finishing has been our nemesis all season and if we don't qualify for the CL it will be because of poor finishing, not because of our tactical choices.

 

As it's been mentioned time and again now, while I absolutely no issue with Jose trying to turn Pogba into a more complete midfielder and player, perfectly capable of playing in a 2 man midfield, I wished he'd put that formation on the shelf for now.
Until next season at the earliest, by which time hopefully a new 6 will have been brought on board, one with solid defensive abilities to provide Pogs the necessary freedom to express himself up the pitch.
I am curious also as to what Jose's reasoning is to completely forego the formation where Pogba and the team as a whole were at it's most successful. I get that Jose is not married to any formation in particular, but it seems like the 4-3-3 has completely disappeared, never to be seen again. Just strange...

 

@gatekeeper2 & @Ashur

You need to question why we are the only "big" club to struggle against bunkered teams. I would argue we struggle against any team but that is an aside.

Mourinho has gambled on Ibrahimovic in attack and has compounded the error by abandoning 4-3-3 in order to push another player into attack with limited impact. His belief that by simply throwing another player into attack we will magically score more goals is just bizarre. It does nothing to solve the main problem and nothing to solve the underlying problems.

Against a bunkered defence, or indeed any defence, you want to break the defensive line to create space and put your opponent on the back foot. The easy ways to do this include:

• using width and overlapping runs to hit the byline and get behind the defence to stop your opponent from trying to be compact
• moving the ball quickly during transitions to exploit space before your opponent gets set defensively
• playing a high tempo with lots of incisive movement to pull opponents out of position to disrupt their defensive line
• getting bodies in the box to exploit any crossing or loose balls
• exploiting late runners from midfield
• having players capable of shooting from distance to draw opponents out to block the shot (which also creates space for a pass)
• have dribblers making direct runs with the ball to isolate individual players (or draw multiple players) creating space for others)

These are just a few from the top of my head. The problem is how many of these do we even bother to do? Unfortunately we usually just camp centrally outside of the box, with no-one inside, and simply pass slow balls around in front of the opposition defence with the occasional cross from one side.

For Pogba this lack of movement, running and overall slow play restricts his passing from deep as he has no outlet and it further restricts his ability to shoot from optimal positions as everyone is trying to play in the same congested area ahead of him.

 

Putting aside the fact that adding a player to the attack really does not help with our attacking fluidity, the biggest problem, as I see it, remains with Pogs productivity and how it directly affects his performance.
As I've mentioned before, I really don't get too hung up on formations and couldn't care less how we line up. As long as it's the best fit for the players we have and thus allows to get the best out of them, that is what matters most.
In our case, it seems like the 4-3-3 has clearly been where we've been the most effective this season and where Pogba has been at his best. If Jose is insistent on molding Pogba into a mid who can play in a mid 2, that is fine ad he can do so in time. But in the meantime, it can be argued he's jeopardized the success of the team this season, by cutting it off at the knees and that is what is most frustrating as far as I'm concerned...

 

Pace doesn't beat parked buses, Teso. Quickness, however, does. Ibra has no pace but he still has incredible quickness -- quickness of mind and quickness of foot. Ibra's teammates just aren't good enough to cope with what Ibra is trying to do with his quick decisions.

Before I go, allow me to stipulate again that Ibra has missed chances of player of his world class quality should have scored. And he's put in some wayward, sometimes lazy, passes that were easily intercepted. He was poor against Anderlecht.

Given the limitations of Lingard and Rashford in being able to anticipate Ibra's passes -- limitations rooted primarily in their lack of experience compared to Ibra -- where we really should attribute fault is in the lack of Pogba's ambition in finding those pockets of space for the pullback or drop back ball for the shot. He did that earlier in the season but his back luck in hitting the woodwork has affected his confidence and trimmed his ambition. Instead, what we're seeing more of now is Fellaini, who somehow has become a regular starter under Jose, consume that space and kill Pogba's relevance in attack. I cannot dispute that Jose is primarily at fault for that.