Problaby only in their games by NT would be considered: World Cup 2006: 03 Games 01 Goal Copa America 2007: 06 Games 02 Goals World Cup 2010: 05 Games 00 Goal Copa America 2011: 04 Games 00 Goal these numbers could be enough?
I don't see how this really matters. You can put many of the world's elite players in similar situations. How would Cristiano Ronaldo be considered if he still played in Portugal? With Messi, you would also have to take into consideration clubs stats (presumably an Argentine club) and other NT stats besides just goals scored in international tournaments.
If I was to be honest, I would be unlikely to consider him the best in the world if he played in South America.
No. Understand that this is a whole matter of marketing. Without a doubt, he is a great player and he performs well. But it wouldn't matter if he flops and does jack at a world cup and fails to inspire his side to win a major continental tournament held at home. It is not a great idea for European media to emphasize tournaments in other parts of the world. It is simply not convinient.
Assuming Messi's development as a player took the exact same trajectory as he would've at Barça, what would you say?
That's not possible so this is not a question for me. There is bias for this "title" though but for me it's a team sport and I don't care about individual rankings.
It can't be realistically, On top of that, most people would overlook the quality in SA leagues to might have underated Messi if that's the case (i.e. Messi is playing with River plate or Boca at present - would people ACCEPT he is the best player? I doubt very much as they will say, let's see how Messi will play in big leagues and facing tougher opponents in Europe - same applied to Neymar now)
Argentines aren't a source of confirmation in anything and their entire general history is full of that. Everyone knows that Maradona was hyped up far more than any other player in his WC winning squad because of the many interests in European football marketing. He completely flopped with Barcelona and moved to Napoli. You do the math. Anyone knowing anything about football would see that the 1986 champions was essentially home players reinforced by European-based players with Sergio Batista, of Argentinos Juniors (the reigning South American champions at that time) managing defense and the transition from 5-3-2 to 3-5-2. Maradona was allowed to reign around as he please although he usually played as a midfielder and fake/winger. Anyway, it is just marketing luster which is why I am very wary about anything coming from Europe as the best. After all, Italian companies, at the behest of UEFA, made a "study" about how Maradona had "the reaction and reflexes of a WW2 pilot" (LMAO how ********in' corny) when the fact of the matter is that it wouldn't be surprising to have 3-4 people that you know that surpasses that because of what they do be it typing, track and field, etc. Other examples include Liverpool's 2005 "unbeatables" which were complete shit against Sao Paulo or Barcelona's "Dream Team" which entire strategy was getting lucky with one goal and play 10 behind the ball while wasting time with pointless flashes. They were beaten by the same opponent. And while I don't particularly care for the Intercontinental Cup, it was the only parameter we had to test apellations like those. Liverpool's squads of the late 70's and early 80s were another example as to how you can call a team "legendary" and be complete shit at the same time. Flamengo showed us in Brasil how they could have won 10-0 easily but stopped playing after 30 minutes. It truly spoke volumes as to the level of quality in the European Cup before foreigners flooded it. And let's not even get in European national leagues. I remember during the 2000 CWC Manchester United was a heavy favorite to at least make it to the final. Vasco da Gama utterly embarrassed that team, who was coming from winning an English treble. After 60 minutes, you could hear the entire Maracana chanting in Portuguese, "Are those really the European champions?!" And in most of those similar cases, they were extremely exaggarated as they showed nothing out of this world. Word of advice: if a "best of the world" remark is heard from Europe, cuadruple check. Nine times out of ten, it is BS and just another marketing ploy.
Right... This isn't true. He played 58 matches, scoring 38 goals. And this was at a time where Barca wasn't that strong. In Liga, Barca finished 4th and 3rd respectively. I'd suggest a line of "credit where it belongs", regardless of where that comes from. Also: I'd suggest a slightly less black and white view on, well, everything. As far as marketing ploys are concerned, how is Neymar the most marketable sportsperson (all sports included) while having very hard time being even a top ten footballer?
I know, right. So you bought a player for a ridiculous amount of money and all you got was a Copa del Rey and one other title? And somehow that isn't flopping? Denial is the first step of the 12th step program. I suggest you start... That was part of the reason so much luster and hyper went to him after WC 1986. Money, fame and luster has to move and stay in the European continent since they are the ones marketing their products (not that I am blaming anyone. The clubs are there to make money). There were other pillars in that WC winning team that were just as important as Maradona. But that's an Argentine problem if they decide to eat all that hype up. So desperate for a hero... I understand that European telemarketers target a general audience with absolutely no critical-thinking skills. Now, I personally don't care. That's their problem. If they get cheated, they get cheated while your clubs get richer. But it is as black and white as they day and night. Some of these "legendary" clubs I see in the "all time best", done in the US and Europe, are complete shit that haven't done a whole lot to talk about. You are picking the wrong person to try to fool about that. Go look for some nad. Neymar is a top ten footballer easily. Apparently, you haven't watched a whole lot of football and can't seem to be able to look five inches beyond your nose. The opinion of someone so ignorant of world affairs can't be taken seriously. Now go drink your porron.
Not bad for just being there two years. The Europeans had their own golden boy to hype for WC86, that was Michel Platini. Maradona's hype is because it is indeed the greatest individual performance in football history, for sure it obliterates anything done by your idol Pele (or any Brazilian player for that matter). After watching Maradona at WC86, seeing Pele's performances is rather boring. Some may be but not all European teams are overhyped, the Real Madrid of DiStefano and Puskas, Cruyff's Ajax, Juventus with Platini, Sacchi's AC Milan, and Messi's Barcelona are deservedly legendary sides. So you claim to have great discerning judgement and be unaffected by the hype, yet you believe Neymar is actually a top ten player ?
You can get through that first step. I believe in you! I'll be dammed if my club ever pains that much money for a player and all we got in two seasons is a State title. To walk away with one tournament win, especially being a shit cup, is embarrassing. Michel Platini was certainly the Golden Boy going in. But he completely flopped, like the rest of his teammates, against the Germans. Maradona, after beating those same opponents, merely stole his thunder. You know very little about football, do you? Instead of seeing for yourself, you simply repeat what Marca, BBC and other shit media says. Great individual performance, yes. Not greatest? Debatable. He merely hit a very good wind during the England game and it carried on against the Belgians. He really didn't do a whole lot against West Germany since Lothar Matthaus personally marked him although he managed to give a pass to Burruchaga for their last goal. And Pele? Boy, you know nothing.... Overhyped. Seriously, go watch a match or read something. As for Messi's Barcelona, we will need to wait until their era is over for a few years. This season will determine if my suspicion is true and that era ended with Guardiola's departure. All Barcelona currently has in their possesion is the Copa del Rey. Go learn about the sport, will ya?
First of all, your condescending tone is uncalled for, and I probably know more about football in my sleep than you do at your best. Let's go over your rant point by point. Maradona's time at Barcelona: Yes, he did not win much but in 1.5 seasons (since he lost half a season after Goicochea's tackle) he restored a lot of luster to the club and got them a Copa del Rey to boot. His individual performances and stats are actually very strong despite Barcelona not being at that point a great side. Overall, it's true that his short spell here is not worthy of legendary status, but it's also not a flop. Maradona at WC86: No it's not just one of many great performances, although I can see why a Brazilian would wish that. Even as it was unfolding the observers, both critics and general populace, were regarding it as something unique: the only time a player truly carried a side single-handedly to triumph in a major tournament. To accomplish something like this, not only does it take extraordinary talent, but also having the mental and emotional mettle to face a glory not savored by anyone else yet. In WC86, Maradona not just won against Platini, Zico, Rummeniege, Laudrup, Francescoli, etc., he in fact beat Pele, Cruyff, Garrincha, Muller, Eusebio, Schiaffino, Kempes, Rossi, Beckenbauer and everyone else: "This is what the greatest of all time looks like". Game on! Overhyped European clubs: I am actually one of the last posters to go about drooling about European club sides, if anything as an antidote to all the fanboys here. However, to say that Sacchis' Milan is overhyped is beyond absurd, their play was absolutely instrumental in bringing soccer out of a conservative, overly defensive ethos, mostly plaguing Europe at the time but also spreading into South America, particularly with that execrable Gremio side that found so much success in Brazil and the Libertadores in the 90s. I like to call them GERM-io for the rotten soccer they played. Current Barcelona: If Barcelona's greatness may have ended with Guardiola, why have they pretty much wrapped up the league title by February? I expect them to reach at least the semifinals of the CL and likely to actually win it all again. There is nothing in their play that suggests a downfall yet.
With Neymar, we have won at least two titles per year. 2011: State and Libertadores 2012:State and Recopa Maradona was complete shit in Barcelona. Let's not forget the way he went out...
How is a player "complete ****" when he scores 38 goals in 58 matches? That's 0,66 goals per match. Mind you, for example, Neymar's goals per match ratio in Santos is 0,62. Football is a team sport, and team titles are the most important thing. That said, when we judge individual players, we can't use team titles alone as the indicator. Meaning that you can play well in a team that wins little.
Let's put things into proper context here. If Messi would have played anywhere in South America most people say it would have been River Plate. River Plate had players such as Alexi Sanchez, Falcao and Higuain at the time period Messi would have been developing his game. I think it is safe to say that a team with those players could have been a favorite to win the Copa Libertadores. And could be competitive against any team in a Club World Cup. I think Messi would have been considered a great player in that situation. Maybe not the best but one of the best.