To hate VAR or to hate the LOTG? That is the question [R]

Playing devil's advocate (like I always try to do)...

Let's say they say "oh snap, VAR is pissing everyone off and even though we love doing that let's shut it down for the 2nd half of the season." Then (by chance) Aston Villa do beat Tottenham by a goal that was slightly offside on replay. Now Norwich have a (valid) grievance that they were subjected to a bogus disallowed goal by VAR and Villa weren't. Then Villa go on to be safe by 2 pts, while Norwich get relegated.

You see where I'm going with this?

 

yeah but in that scenario, and Norwich has been relegated, what's to stop them complaining / suing at that point?

 

Well that's what I'm saying. If they have VAR for the whole season, no one can bitch that they were subjected to more scrutiny from the eyes in London compared to teams in the 2nd half of the season.

 

I guess maybe, but I don't really see how making the switch at the end of the season, as opposed to half-way through, makes any difference to a team deciding to complain that they weren't treated fairly. the new/old rules would apply to all teams at the same time ... nobody is getting any advantage really due to the timing.

God I hate VAR. sick and tired of seeing it and thinking about it.

 

I don't mean the stoppage in terms of actual time. I mean it "seems" like less stoppage than it actually is as you know what is going on. Seeing/hearing exactly what is being reviewed and why is a distraction from the time being taken.

 

Why don't they just bring on the cheerleaders. Makes as much sense

 

Remember when after match threads were filled with team and player talk.
When it was fun to talk about the plays and moves of the game. Now and then there would be a bitch about the ref. but it would soon move on.
Anyone remember those days, so long ago? Like last season.

 

jeez man don't give them ideas ......

 

the good not-so-old days !!

 

True, we didn't have VAR as an overriding topic.

 

you are an ageist bugger, aren't you?

 

skysports poll -- 86% of football fans think VAR is a failure.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...ersy-graeme-souness-wants-offside-rule-change

 

You set out with a seasons rules, and whatever happens according to those rules is “fair” to the best of the officials’ ability to enforce the rules ... because that’s what everyone agreed to for that season. That’s why you don’t drastically change the rules in the middle of the season, it’s not fair to over half the season’s results that have already been played, it sets two distinct standards for one season. That’s why it basically never happens to impactful rule changes, that they are adopted mid-season.

Norwich can whine all they want about them getting a rough ride via VAR... it doesn’t matter, the same exact rules apply to everyone. Might as well have had Liverpool bitching in 2011 when they were in 10th or so and leading the league in shots off the woodwork... your complaint is meaningless, work on your finishing! Same for clubs “aggrevied” by VAR... you want goals to count, time your runs better, and don’t score after the ball has touched your arm. Those goals aren’t going to count, everyone knows this by now.

Those quotes in that article are alarmist nonsense. The study has been done, VAR doesn’t “cost football goals”, that’s an idiotic statement out of context... it takes some goals away, yes, and GIVES some goals which regular refereeing mistakes would have ordinarily taken away if not for VAR.

I love Carra but he does or says something remarkably stupid at least once every few months, it seems. And Souness is just your typical dinosaur.

 

OK so here is the overall view of how VAR has worked out for each team so far. So much for "LiVARpool"
https://talksport.com/football/648917/have-liverpool-lucky-var-decisions-premier-league/

Brighton – VAR decisions for = 7/VAR decisions against = 2 Overall +5
The Seagulls top the lot when it comes to decisions going in their favour.Graham Potter’s men have seen four opponents have goals disallowed for offside, while Leicester were forced to retake a penalty and Aston Villa saw a strike chalked off for a foul.
Brighton were also given a penalty, scored by Neal Maupay against Everton.

Southampton – VAR decisions for = 5/VAR decisions against = 1 Overall +4
The Saints may have had Ryan Bertrand sent off against Leicester thanks to VAR but that’s the only decision not to go their way.Sheffield United, Bournemouth, Wolves, West Ham, and Crystal Palace have all had strikes cancelled out against Ralph Hasenhuttl’s side.

Manchester United – VAR decisions for = 4/VAR decisions against = 1 Overall +3
Their first VAR encounter saw Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang given a goal against them but the last four times used it has gone their way.They saw Sadio Mane have a goal disallowed, while they have been given three penalties – but only scored one of them.

Bournemouth – VAR decisions for = 3/VAR decisions against = 1 Overall +2
The Cherries have been handed two reprieves this season with two goals chalked off but then given after the Video Assistant Referee’s intervention.They also saw Brighton have Dan Burn’s goal cancelled at the weekend.

Leicester – VAR decisions for = 5/VAR decisions against = 3 Overall +2
The Foxes have found technology going for them five times with Wolves, Tottenham, and Burnley having goals against them ruled out.Kelechi Iheanacho had a goal given despite originally being called offside, while Ryan Bertrand was sent off against them in their 9-0 win over Southampton.

Liverpool – VAR decisions for = 4/VAR decisions against = 2 Overall +2
Prior to their game with Wolves, the Reds had actually only seen two decisions go directly in their favour – disallowed goals for Chelsea and Crystal Palace.Mane’s allowed goal on Sunday and Neto’s cancelled effort take their tally to four decisions in their favour.

Newcastle – VAR decisions for = 1 / VAR decisions against = 0 Overall +1
The Video Assistant Referee has only made one intervention in a Newcastle game and it gave them Jonjo Shelvey’s strike against Sheffield United.

Watford – VAR decisions for = 2 / VAR decisions against = 1 Overall +1
The Hornets have felt aggrieved some decisions had not been overturned this season, including a possible penalty against Tottenham. Still, it gave them one against Chelsea and chalked off a Liverpool goal when Sadio Mane was ruled to be offside.

Crystal Palace – VAR decisions for = 3/VAR decisions against = 2 Overall +1
Roy Hodgson and his men were given a goal against West Ham having seen it disallowed first of all.Against Arsenal they profited twice when they were given a penalty after Wilfried Zaha was originally adjudged to have dived, while the Gunners had a goal taken away from them later on.

Burnley – VAR decisions for = 3/VAR decisions against = 2 Overall +1
VAR has helped the Clarets in many ways this campaign.Aston Villa had a goal taken off for offside, Chelsea saw a given penalty overturned for a dive by Callum Hudson-Odoi, while they were given a spot-kick of their own against Watford by technology.

Man City – VAR decisions for = 4/VAR decisions against = 3 Overall +1
Recently City have had VAR help them as it gave them their penalty against Wolves, while allowing them to retake it due to encroachment after Raheem Sterling’s miss.It also disallowed a Lys Mousset goal against Sheffield United, and earlier in the campaign allowed Sergio Aguero to retake a penalty against West Ham.

Tottenham – VAR decisions for = 5/VAR decisions against = 4 Overall +1
Spurs have had quite the season with VAR.Early on they drew with Man City after Gabriel Jesus’ goal was disallowed for a handball in the build-up, sparking jubilant scenes.Since then it’s been a love-hate relationship but in their defeat to Leicester they saw Ayoze Perez’s goal chalked off and later in the campaign David McGoldrick’s effort for Sheffield United was cancelled out for offside.West Ham’s Declan Rice also had a goal disallowed, as well as Pukki at the weekend.
===========================================
Wolves – VAR decisions for = 0 / VAR decisions against = 6 Overall -6
So far this campaign Nuno Espirito Santo’s men have not had a single VAR decision go in their favour during a match.

Sheffield United – VAR decisions for = 1 / VAR decisions against = 7 Overall -6
The only call by technology in the Blades’ direction this season was when Chris Basham had a red card rescinded against Norwich at the start of December.

Norwich City – VAR decisions for = 1/VAR decisions against = 5 Overall -4
The Canaries saw Chelsea have a goal disallowed for a foul back in August but since then another five interventions have gone against them.

West Ham – VAR decisions for = 3/VAR decisions against = 6 Overall -3
The Hammers have seen VAR help them on three occasions.Technology wiped out goals for Man City, Brighton and Burnley with all being ruled offside after a check.

Chelsea – VAR decisions for = 3/VAR decisions against = 5 Overall -2
Against Tottenham, the Blues had two huge decisions go their way as they were given a penalty and saw Heung-Min Son sent off for a kick out at Antonio Rudiger.The only other call which has gone their way was when West Ham’s Michail Antonio had a goal ruled out for handball

Everton – VAR decisions for = 1/VAR decisions against = 2 Overall -1
The Toffees’ one VAR call in their favour hasn’t even been a goal.It did though get a penalty for Leicester City cancelled after Mason Holgate was initially believed to have fouled Ben Chilwell.

Aston Villa – VAR decisions for = 1/VAR decisions against = 2 Overall -1
Sadly for the Villans, the one time VAR did hand them a decision the resulting penalty was missed by Jack Grealish against Sheffield United.

Arsenal – VAR decisions for = 2/VAR decisions against = 3 Overall -1
The Gunners haven’t had too much go for them when it comes to VAR.They saw it give them Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang’s goal against Manchester United after it was initially ruled out.Meanwhile, against Norwich, they were allowed to retake a missed penalty due to encroachment.Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang saw his goal against Manchester United given after VAR got involved

 

This I agree with 100%

1. Any decision that requires review (unlike GLT) will ruin atmosphere BY DEFINITION because it will require a delay. So if you must “get it right” say goodbye to that immediacy of emotion that makes the sport so wonderful

2. VAR actually cannot even “get it right” because most decisions are subjective (even offside isn’t precise due to frames per second). So we will still argue about decisions even after we have all viewed the same video limitless times. So in the pursuit of the false god of absolute accuracy, we sacrifice the essence of the sport.

3. Finally, the “get it right” argument is a very slippery slope. Did anyone think VAR would be an invitation to video game-type pedantry about offside millimeters? Did anyone think we’d end up automatically reviewing EVERY goal? No. But we ended up here because we believed in the false god of “getting it right”.

 

Getting it more right than before, you mean. There is not “getting it absolutely right”, and VAR acknowledges that fact.

But there’s no question the trade off is some of the excitement that comes from the immediacy of no reviews. That’s been true and obvious from the start. GLT does the same exact thing, it’s just much much less relied upon for obvious reasons, and it’s less intrusive.

But... surely you still enjoy watching the games with VAR? Otherwise you’d stop I presume? That’s the secret here, that’s why prem clubs and rule makers are going to stick with VAR, that’s why that scheduled check-in was so uneventful and they agreed it’s working and minimal changes would take place... because the people complaining, overwhelmingly, are still watching and still going to the matches.

 

that's a pretty facile argument hobo. I'm too tired right now to respond in full but I will tomorrow.

 

OK.

 

Thats a crappy argument. No. I don't enjoy watching with VAR. I dislike it. I won't let that irritant stop me watching my team tho. I do mean crappy argument to suggest we'd stop watching. I'm still thinking like many, that the var farce will go away.

I see a lot of obvious calls that do not need the var pause. The ref or linesman could easily call it. But we wait. Then the people who back VAR say. Look another win for var.

For us to accept var there is going to be a lot of law reviews during the off season to accommodate var and make it palatable.

 

I'm not suggesting you stop watching... I'm saying the only way that argument "this isn't enjoyable anymore!" has any weight is if you stop watching. If you don't enjoy your hobby anymore but aren't willing to stop watching, I don't know what to tell you. Something doesn't quite add up there.

I think the reality is those disliking VAR still enjoy watching the sport just fine, generally speaking. VAR isn't radically changing based on 80,000 people on the internet who are complaining about correct calls according to the rules every week yet keep watching the product.

I mean... it's already pretty clear VAR isn't radically changing at all. They might start using pitch-side monitors next season, or something. That's the largest change I'd realistically anticipate. Because by every metric VAR is doing what it set out to do.

They do need to iron-out some of the larger unforseen wrinkles caused by applying VAR to the current rulebook, but again that's about the rules more than "VAR".

Well, setting aside weird close offside calls and a handful of oddly decided fouls in the box, VAR overwhelmingly is fixing bad/wrong decisions by referees. That's why people say "another win for VAR" in pointing out these calls. You say any ref or linesman could call it... but they don't, and aren't, there are many many examples. Multiple goals have had to have been disallowed due to the new handball rule that refs missed, multiple pretty clear offside and onside calls have been missed by the refs.

 

Yeah, the easily pleased. The game boy crowd. And the ones that like the game so much they will put up with the shit to watcb their team play. I beg to differ var HAS radically changed the game. Why do you think there's so much controversy every single week. Denying it is like wearing blinkers.
Accepting it is not the same as putting up with it so you can watch your team.

 

I didn't say VAR hasn't changed the game... I agree it has.

But asking why there's controversy, pointing to that being a clear problem with VAR, that's like pointing to Fox News and saying Trump is a good president. This is hugely inflated by the tone and aggregate of media reports about VAR decisions. If they actually reported on VAR correctly (which they are under no obligation to do, as the media by and large is a joke as far as I'm concerned...) it would dramatically impact the fan response. Just like Fox's piss-poor reporting on Benghazi for example dramatically impacted their viewers' response to that event.

I'm not saying you and Sam would personally like VAR more... but the way this is being covered is absolutely fueling this.

The other problem, of course, is that the offside rule isn't built to be scrutinized by VAR in this manner. But again, that's a problem with the offside rule IMO, because basically all these close offside VAR decisions are accurate according to the rulebook. Fans/supporters not liking the way these correct calls look is the evidence that the rules themselves need adjusting.

If it's about the time spent on VAR calls, well there's not much to say about that... I mean hopefully it will be more streamlined in the future, but the only way for you to address it as a fan are get over it or don't, because it's just not going anywhere. Just like extended time for injuries, extended time for penalties and free kicks and substitutions aren't going anywhere. All of them are well justified and agreed upon by the powers that be, whether any one individual fan agrees with them or not.

 

We both agree that VAR and offside are not viable under the current law.
Most calls under the law are correct but it's just so fine and sometimes it feels so wrong.
Someone scores a brilliant goal after some wonderful play... And it's disallowed because an armpit is 2mm closer than a boot.

As my mantra goes.
A win for VAR. A loss for football!