Hungary's downfall

Discussion in 'Central & Eastern Europe' started by MIGkiller, Jul 26, 2003.

  1. MIGkiller

    MIGkiller Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    May 9, 2003
    Rio de Janeiro
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Since we have new hungarian posters in BS (welcome zmse :)), they can give us outsiders some insights on why that once the top easter-european side now cannot qualify to the World Cup or even the Eurocup anymore. Would it be thanks to mismanagement, corruption? What happened to Hungary that didn't happened to other eastern countries of Europe that still produce world class players and competitive sides?
     
  2. Bentex

    Bentex Member

    Dec 23, 2002
    Nottingham, UK
    how dare you :(

























    :)
     
  3. MIGkiller

    MIGkiller Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    May 9, 2003
    Rio de Janeiro
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Re: Re: Hungary's downfall

    Did I say something wrong? In any moment I had the intention to bash Hungary. Pretty on the contrary. Like what happened to Uruguay in South-America, it's always sad when a former world class team falls into international oblivion.
     
  4. Bentex

    Bentex Member

    Dec 23, 2002
    Nottingham, UK
    we will never reach the standered of 53 ;)

    but only a couple of east euro team have better players than us nowadays.

    BTW
    do u want to know how to strike a football?
    Click Here
    Here
    and here ;)
     
  5. zmse

    zmse New Member

    Jul 26, 2003
    Hungary
    huhh

    a classic: you could fill libraries with publication about it:)
     
  6. zmse

    zmse New Member

    Jul 26, 2003
    Hungary
    Just some thoughts about it:

    1.

    yeah one of the most important reasons in my opinion. A Hungarian team could do anything, but it will be compared to that team. So if somebody is talking about Hungarian soccer it is fashionate to do it with irony, even tv and other media is doing it. (Hungarian soccer and everything connected with it is disparaged by the majority.)

    2.

    competition: (i know that it is same everywhere, but still part of the picture.)
    We are god in a lot of other sports and have leagues which are able to compete with German , French or other big leagues. For example: waterpolo (we just won the world championship yesterday!), handball, women's basketball. The bigger handball and basketball teams have higher attendance figures than most first division soccer teams.

    3.

    club system: it wasn't really working in the 80's, but didn't changed after 90 either. The clubs were state owned and financed. Didn't pay their taxes, got into debts and than expected the state to consolidate them (and because there isn't championship without FTC, UTE ... they always did) So you can imagine what kind of people did this attracted to soccer.
    But in the end of the 90's it was sad that there won't be any more of this, so now clubs started to go to bankruptcy, and in my opinion a real consolidation has started. Now it looks like chaos, but never mind! (last year for example Vasas went to bankruptcy, Honvéd is near to it (Puskás's former team, last year's second division was started with 20 teams (supposed to start with two 12 team groups) 18 has finished, now from that 18 only 7 has the same name and playing in the same city, the rest have moved or didn't enter.

    4.

    money and motivation: the salaries are to high compared to the performance (a team from Prague wanted to by Kenesei, but then they heard that his salary is higher than what the best players get in their league they didn't) the fix wage are generally much higher than the premium, so most of the time we see "alibi" football -> the championship is weak, players can't develop in them (Hungarians playing in bigger teams left the country early.)


    But I am optimistic. (and this sentence didn't included any irony!)
    I think compared to the size of the country , there wasn't any problem with our performance until the end of the 80's. We had a UEFA cup finalist team in 85. (Videoton, they were beaten by Madrid.) and we went to Mexico.
    In the 90's the national team's players were "playing" in foreign teams (they were only siting on the bench) Now the team members are playing frequently in their teams like Herta, Werder, Cottbus, Stutgart, Porto, Dinamo Kiev... (Not the biggest teams but they are playing in better leagues and international cups)

    about the Hungarian league: there are less teams in Budapest (now only 3, used to be 5-6 sometimes even 8) this strategy worked in other sports in Hungary, or in soccer in Austria.

    I have got tired of writing:)
     
  7. Bentex

    Bentex Member

    Dec 23, 2002
    Nottingham, UK
    nice rd up

    to tired to write more now (it is 2am here u know)
     
  8. zmse

    zmse New Member

    Jul 26, 2003
    Hungary
    From: Scotsman.com

    Trip down memory lane reveals the ugly rivalry between Hungarian old firm

    Dan Brennan


    IMAGINE if Celtic and Rangers were owned by the same man. It could never happen, of course. More than 100 years of partisan rivalry, not to mention UEFA rules, would not allow it.

    But in Budapest, somehow, that is exactly the way things stand with the capital’s two main clubs, Ferencvaros and MTK Hungaria, Celtic’s opponents in the third qualifying round of the Champions League. Majority stakes in both are owned by a company called Fotex, which is owned by retail tycoon Gabor Várszegi. The situation has brought Várszegi under scrutiny by UEFA and he is promising to sell his stake in one club, probably MTK.

    If the scenario is unusual, not to mention irregular, then it is made even more remarkable by the troubled and antagonistic relationship between the two clubs. In terms of international recognition, MTK Hungaria have always been in Ferencvaros’ shadow, but that is not a true reflection of the balance of domestic power.

    Between 1914 and 1925, MTK, as they were known then, won a record 10 titles on the trot (the league was suspended for two years during the First World War). For the latter five titles, they were managed by Englishman and former Bolton Wanderer Jimmy Hogan, whose side contained a handful of British players. Flash forward to recent times and, over the past decade, the title tally has been even, with MTK and "Fradi" winning three titles apiece.

    The antipathy between the clubs is exacerbated by an undercurrent of anti-semitism that makes the sectarian shadow that darkens the Old Firm rivalry seem moderate. MTK’s origins are rooted in the Budapest Jewish community, one of several sporting associations formed as part of the Maccabi movement. Their Jewish connection has been preserved for most of their history and Várszegi, one of Hungary’s most successful businessmen, is Jewish.

    While Ferencvaros have Jewish roots of their own, which tends to be airbrushed out of the club hagiographies, in modern times they have become a focal point for a particularly virulent far-right following, which likes to indulge in Seig Heil salutes and anti-semitic chants directed at their rivals.

    Already majority shareholder in MTK, Várszegi purchased 80% in Fradi two years ago. It sparked a wave of protests and racist outbursts, not just among many of the team’s fans and the country’s right-wing parties.

    Most controversial of all were the comments of Laszlo Bognar, deputy president of the right-wing Hungarian Justice and Life Party: "Those who consider themselves proper, working-class Hungarians oppose the spirit of business conduct practised by upper-class Hungarians with foreign roots. The upper- class supports MTK and Fradi supporters have always felt that they are the oppressed, ordinary children of the nation, while the Jews have secured their place in high society."

    Last season’s title race - another head-to-head between the two clubs - turned into one of the most dramatic in Hungary’s history, and ended in a cloud of controversy. With five games to go MTK were eight points off the pace, but a late run, compounded by several Fradi slip-ups, brought them level as the clubs went into the final day on 30 May. Ferencvaros managed only a goalless draw against Debreceni VSC, while MTK beat Uspest 1-0 to clinch the title.



    ‘Ferencvaros have become a focal point for a virulent far-right following’


    At the final whistle, dozens of angry Ferencvaros fans launched a pitch invasion, leaving large numbers of rival supporters and several Debreceni players injured. Subsequently, there have been mutterings about a Jewish conspiracy - orchestrated by Várszegi - to deny their club the title. It was the latest show of ugliness that has come to characterise the hardcore support of Fradi.

    The upshot earlier this week was that Ferencvaros had six points deducted by the Hungarian FA, who dished out a £150,000 fine and ordered them to play their first three home games of the season behind closed doors as a punishment for their fans’ behaviour. After two rounds of the new season, Ferencvaros have dropped to the bottom of the table, on minus four points.

    For MTK, meanwhile, the first few weeks of the new campaign have been much happier, capped by the 3-2 aggregate win against Finnish champions HJK Helsinki, which set up their tie with Celtic, a fixture laden with historical nuance. The two sides last met in the semi-finals of the European Cup Winners Cup in 1964.

    After cruising to a 3-0 lead in the first leg at Parkhead, the Bhoys travelled to Hungary with thoughts already turning to the final. They lost the second leg 4-0. Celtic’s centre forward that night, John Hughes, recalls: "We just went out and played our natural attacking game. It didn’t matter where we played - that was just how we went about our business. You might say we were a bit naive, yes."

    Naivety is not something that Martin O’Neill would countenance in one of his sides, and few would perceive much cavalier attacking flair in the modern Celtic team.

    But that said, Hungarian football is not what it used to be either; in fact, it is fair to say that the Magyars are now the forgotten men of European football. Long gone are the days when Hungary’s Golden Team of the 1950s (the one that thrashed the English 7-1 and 6-3 within a year) were one of the world’s finest, and when Puskas - the Beckham of his day - illuminated the Bernabau with his dazzling skills.

    Today, Hungary boasts no star names. The MTK team that Celtic face will rely largely on the playmaking skills and goals of former Hungarian international midfield player Bela Illes - last season’s joint-leading scorer - complemented by current international midfielder Gabor Zavadszky and the unpredictable talents of the seemingly obligatory Brazilian striker, Welton da Silva.

    For MTK it will be a trip down memory lane and a reminder of better days - for Celtic the chance to inflict some long overdue revenge.
     
  9. MIGkiller

    MIGkiller Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    May 9, 2003
    Rio de Janeiro
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Bump.

    With so many new Hungarian posters in the forum and with an upcoming Brazil x Hungary game, I'd like to read new inputs on the matter.
     
  10. 1953 4-2-4

    1953 4-2-4 Red Card

    Jan 11, 2004
    Cleveland
    i agree with zmse's points.
     
  11. gremista

    gremista New Member

    Jun 27, 2001
    Budapest, Hungary
    Thanks for the information ZMSE. Very sad stae of affairs. Will discuss with my father in law and Hungarian teacher and see what they say.

    Also good point about Hungarians being "Gods" I remember a site that ranked countires Olympic success by medals per 100K of population. IIRC, Hungary was a top six nation, surpassed by a few outlier Carribean nations who picked up medals in sprinting
     
  12. gremista

    gremista New Member

    Jun 27, 2001
    Budapest, Hungary
     
  13. hungaryforever

    hungaryforever New Member

    Apr 3, 2004
    Hungary/Szarvas
    The main problem with football in Hungary:
    The players earn much, very much, for almost nothing. There isn't fighting spirit, and mentally(it has political origins too, which are so complicated, if you want I will try to explain, though it is a sport website) we are so bad(this is true also in other team sports!!)

    In addition: We are very succesfull other team sports like handball, basketball, ice hockey, waterpolo, etc. We spent much money on football, and there is very little sign. We spent very less money on these sports, and we are very good in these! We won 159 gold medals in summer olymic games, it is unbelieveable, in spite of the lack of financial funds!!!

    In Hungary everybody likes football, or I can say mad about it (like me), but not the Hungarian football. It's condition cause to every Hungarians big pain.

    HAJRÁ MAGYARORSZÁG!!!!!!!!!!!
    I hope we going to be better in the forthcoming wc qualifier campaign.
     
  14. 1953 4-2-4

    1953 4-2-4 Red Card

    Jan 11, 2004
    Cleveland
    Hungary 3:0 Brazil

    My Prediction ;)
     
  15. MiamiAce

    MiamiAce New Member

    Jan 12, 2004
    Miami, USA
    What is that player's name? Does he still play for Dynamo Kiev?
     
  16. hungaryforever

    hungaryforever New Member

    Apr 3, 2004
    Hungary/Szarvas
    I think you meant Bodnár. He plays for Arsenal Kiyiv onloan.
     
  17. the101er

    the101er New Member

    Jan 29, 2003
    Let me give you some quick thoughts of a Hungarian-American, raised by a devoutly Hungarian father. I can count to ten in Hungarian, say "Good morning. How are you? etc." but as the 3rd generation immigrant, the contact has been lost and must be reconnected.

    My father bragged about everything Hungarian. So, of course, I was aware at an early age of the great Hungarian soccer teams and how many gold medals Hungary won in the Olympics, and the famous water polo match with the Russians, where the water was said to have run red with blood...

    Here is something about Hungary most outsiders either don't think about or don't know. The last 50 years of soviet oppression are just 50 years in a long history of constantly battling against larger empires. Hungarian history can largely be summed up by the fact that the country is a great place to have a battle between Turks and Western Europeans.

    I think the Hungarian character is largely stoic with definite fits towards depression. Hungarians are something like ten times more likely to commit suicide than any other nationality. My great grand uncle was the toughest man anyone knew. But when he couldn't go to work in the mines anymore and support himself, he killed himself.

    How does that relate to soccer? I think there is a definite belief that things will get better, but an almost equal belief that pigheaded bureacrats will do their best (or worst) to stop it. But that is a view held by many soccer fans fed up with the politics of their local FA's. I think the Hungarian view is probably more stoic in accepting the status quo, until finally it can be accepted no longer...

    There have been many false dawns in Hungarian soccer in the past decade. If we hadn't lost to Romania in the run up to the 2002 World Cup, we might have qualified. As it stands, we got into the playoffs and then collapsed against Turkey, I believe.

    Amazing to think that we were put out of Euro 2004 by Latvia. I thought that group was almost set up to guarantee Hungary at least made the playoffs. But, it didn't happen again.

    UEFA says they want to support grassroots soccer, so they could have awarded the joint proposal of Austria-Hungary 2004. Hungary could have used the cash from the championships to rebuild stadia and resurrect soccer. But perhaps UEFA saw the corruption that other posters have mentioned. Also there was a lot of petty wrangling between Japan and Korea that seemed to put the kibbash on joint bids. Anyway, now Austria has wisely turned to the west, as an Austro-Swiss bid has far less menacing overtones for the rest of Europe compared to a united Austro-Hungary.

    I wonder how many ethnic Hungarians are playing for Romania, Ukraine, Austria, Slovakia and others. I don't want to dig up old wounds, but it is remarkable how many ethnic Hungarians live peacefully in surrounding countries and maintain their Hungarian culture. I greatly admire Hungary's willingness to accept the status quo and not start sword rattling the way their southern neighbors did to only their own discredit. It's the 21st century, apart from soccer, we all have to get along - full stop.

    Hungary taught the world (and especially the Brazilians) how to play modern soccer. I don't think Hungarians fell out of love with soccer as Pele has said, but I do think there is a certain part of our character that decided we weren't going to allow Hungarian soccer to be used as a propaganda tool for the soviets.

    Personally, I have wondered if: the 1954 team saw where victory was taking them (The symbolic triumph of Socialism over Capitalism) and at least sub-conciously were put off by the idea of their increasing role as propaganda puppets for the soviets. It would not have been out of character (as much as I can judge Hungarian character) to have taken a dive in that game. Perhaps they meant to win, but not dominate as easily as they could have and ended up losing. Remember Hungary was up 2-0 after 10 minutes.

    I think it will take some time for the youth of the country to get over this cynical viewpoint, as it can seem equally ludicrous to a nihilistic 18 year old to cheer for state and nation.

    But I do think things will come along. I think the appointment of Mattheus will do the team a wealth of political good and there will be a genuine hope that the Hungarians can qualify for the German World Cup. This might help in additional team sponsorship and more outside investigation into what is going wrong with soccer in Hungary.

    The views expressed here are from an uninformed American attempting to make sense of a subject where very little has been written. I certainly won't mind being corrected on my gross assumptions and mistakes.
     
  18. Bentex

    Bentex Member

    Dec 23, 2002
    Nottingham, UK
    that post is the biggest load of bullsh!t I have ever heard.

    I cant belive you took time out to put together so much crap.
     
  19. sanyi

    sanyi Member

    Aug 9, 2003
    KÜLFÖLD
    mine too, maybe 4-0:)
     
  20. the101er

    the101er New Member

    Jan 29, 2003
    Yeah, rereading it, I can't either. No more posting in the morning. There's just too much in that post that can be misconstrued and taken the wrong way. I apologize for that one.
     
  21. MiamiAce

    MiamiAce New Member

    Jan 12, 2004
    Miami, USA
    I read your post, and although there are several specific points you make that I don't agree with, I think I know what you're are trying to imply in a broader scope. My father is Hungarian, he lived through the Hungarian uprising of 1956 and he has told me several stories about the MAJOR changes of Europe since the 2 World Wars, the fall of Kingdoms and the rise of small ethnics. For example, he and his family had lived in Bratislava for some time, which is now Slovakia's capital. He told me that at the time he lived there, the vast majority of the people in the city spoke Hungarian. This was because for hundreds of years before the end of WW1, it use to be an Hungarian city (Pozsony), and the Hungarian capital from 1526-1784. The only people that spoke Slovak were mostly shepherds on the outskirts of the city. But when he lived there, the Czech/Slovak-runned government (who took over the city with an army in 1918) tried to ban Hungarian from being spoken in public, which would have been impossible! BUT I believe now that they actually have a law that bans Hungarian from being spoken in official communication. So my point is, that Hungary went from a large Empire to a small nation and Hungarians everywhere had to put up with a lot of crap from many small surrounding governments. In that sense, I do understand what 101er is trying to imply, that soccer hasn't been a focus for many Hungarians over these trying years. The hard-pressed communist regime with their corruption and spy-like characteristics MAY HAVE, maybe not, had a direct effect on the personality of Hungarian spirit. I think these issues can always be open for discussion because there is no line between fact and opinion regarding the reasons for Hungary's downfall.

    But why focus on the downfall? Hungary shall rise up again if everyone has the right attitude, commitment, and good faith!
     
  22. the101er

    the101er New Member

    Jan 29, 2003
    It will be interesting to see if Mattheus starts pulling passport and "your grandparents were Hungarian" type ploys to build the national team up. I can understand the animosity I get from Hungarians living in Hungary and Europe. I would feel the same way about someone making sweeping generalizations about the USA.

    But we're trying to discover the why of a problem here. I'm not blaming anyone, or even saying that the so called Hungarian characteristics I mentioned are completely accurate. But I, like all Hungarian soccer fans, long for -- if not a return to the domination of the Golden Team -- then at least the type of respectable performances being put in by many of Hungary's neighbors: Slovakia, Romania, Czech Republic, Poland.

    As for the socialist propaganda angle of my post, consider this: 50 years after the fact, adidas still points to those original replacable stud shoes, first worn by the West Germans in the WC final in Bern in 1954. Adidas (see the adidas Predator ad in the April issue of 'FourFourTwo') has been selling shoes on that story for 50 years. I assume a Hungarian victory would have had a similar propaganda/advertising impact for the soviets.

    I agree that we need to try to find solutions and not tear each other apart, so I am sorry to have created apparently a lot of animosity with my post. That isn't what we need.
     
  23. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Bump, game is 8 days away, with no injuries yet (for the players who were originally called up) Brazil will line up with:

    Dida;
    Cafu, Lúcio, Roque Jr., Roberto Carlos;
    Renato or Juninho Pernambucano, Gilberto Silva, Zé Roberto;
    Ronaldinho Gaúcho, Kaká, Luís Fabiano

    What are Hungary's expectations for the game? Is your World Cup qualifying schedule agreed on yet?

    For Brazil seeing Júlio Baptista, Juninho Pernambucano, Manicni and Bordon or Juan get some minutes would be amazing - practically a miracle considering Parreira's attitude.
     
  24. 1953 4-2-4

    1953 4-2-4 Red Card

    Jan 11, 2004
    Cleveland
    Well, the positive outlook is that by losing to Brasil, we won't be losing to a minnow such as Estonia or Georgia or Kryyzykykzzjkryyzykstan that day.
     

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