I wanted to start a thread about Hungary's National team after the the golden team disbanded, particularly the teams of the 60s and 70s that had a lot of success in Wold Cups, Olympics, and European Championships. I basically do not have a very good idea of how the team was set up and what players played what roles. They seemed to have an overabundance of attacking talent. Lots of well rounded forwards that could all make chances and finish chances all trying to fit into one team. Now this may be a misconception, as i said i do not have a very good idea of how the team functioned. Some of the players I thought were playemakers were often the teams leading scorers etc (Bene in 1966 WC). I would also like to know who the star performers were in the tournaments they played well in. Who were thought of as the best players on the team? What role did the different forwards have? Did they have any great defenders of midfielders? All the most famous players from these teams seem to be forwards. First a little rundown of their achievements in international tournaments, they played a lot of games as they were one of the few nations that took the Olympics seriously at this time. 1960 Euro: Eliminated by the Soviets in the first qualifying round. 1960 Olympics: As one of the few teams fielding thier first side they cruise to the semifinals where they lose to Denmark. Gorocs and Albert are the leading scorers. 1962 WC Qualifying: Qualified impressively in a relatively strong group. Goalscoring was spread relatively evenly though Albert, Tichy, Sandor, and Gorocs. 1962 WC: Very strong in the group stage qualifying first in a group with England, Argentina, and Bulgaria. Were beaten in the quarterfinals by Czechoslovakia. Tichy and Albert carried the goalscoring load. Euro 1964: Very strong in the qualifying stage knocking out Wales, East Germany and France. Lost to Spain in the Semifinals in a game many thought they outplayed the Spanish in. Bene, Albert, Tichy, and Sandor all score multiple goals. 1964 Olympics: They cruise to the title with the only A team they played being the Czechs in the final and Yugoslavia who shared their group. Bene stars scoring 12 goals in 5 games. 1966 WC Qualifying: Qualified with ease over East Germany and Austria. Bene and Farkas have both now arrived in the team, Farkas and Fenyvesi are the leading scorers. 1966 WC: Are place in an ever stronger group than in 1962 but still manage to move on, achieving a famous victory over Brazil. Again knocked out in the quarterfinals, this time by the Soviets. Bene is the leading scorer although Albert takes many of the plaudits. Euro 1968: Made it out of the group stage of qualification despite facing the Netherlands and East Germany. Lost in the quarterfinals to the Soviet Union. Farkas takes the starring role that includes a hat trick versus East Germany. 1968 Olympics: Defend their title becoming champions again in 68. The only strong team they face is Bulgaria in the final. Some of the bigger stars do not appear to be present but the team is still strong with scoring from Fazekas, Dunai and Szucs. 1970 WC Qualification: Fail to qualify despite a wealth of attacking talent. Finished even on points with the Czechs and despite winning at home and drawing away in round robin play, were crushed in the playoff game to decide who qualified. Bene was the leading scorer. Euro 1972: Win their qualifying group and advance to the final tournament by beating Romania in the quarterfinals. Bene and Kocsis play big roles. Once again knocked out by the Soviets, this time in the semi-final. 1972 Olympics: Fail to defend their title a third time as they fail to Poland, a team on they way up that would supersede them in the Eastern European power struggle in the coming years. Dunia and Kocsis star at forward. 1974 WC Qualification: Again failed to qualify this time finishing a very disappointing 3rd in the group. This marked the end of this crop of players run together. Who were thought of as the best players on these teams looking through the Balon d'Or voting might help. Numbers = points. 1960: János Göröcs (2) Karoly Sandor (2) 1961: Lajos Tichy (2) 1962: János Göröcs (6), Florian Albert (2), Ernö Solymosi (2), Lajos Tichy (1) 1963: Florian Albert (3), Karoly Sandor (2) 1964: Ferenc Bene (6), Florian Albert (2) 1965: Florian Albert (14), Ferenc Bene (2) 1966: Florian Albert (23), Ferenc Bene (8), Janos Farkas (8) 1967: Florian Albert (86), Janos Farkas (8) 1968: Antal Dunai (7), Lajos Szucs (4), Florian Albert (4), Ferenc Bene (1) 1969: Ferenc Bene (2) 1970: None 1971: Ferenc Bene (7) 1972: Antal Dunai (2) 1973: None 1974: None The Forwards. Florian Albert is obviously the most famous player on these teams and maybe the best? Great dribbler with excellent technique and explosiveness. Goalscoring for his country peaked between 61 and 64. Goalscoring for his club peaked between 64 and 67, when he won all his plaudits. Did he take on more of a creator role during this time with the national team? He only scored 4 goals in 20 games between 64 and 67 and 19 in 32 from 61 to 64. Comme has him as the #28 forward of all time. Ferenc Bene another very agile and technical dribbler, maybe not as explosive as Albert. Listed at a number of positions depending on where you look. Comme has him as the #21 right winger of all time. Many site list him as a striker. Had the most longevity of the group, highly productive from the early 60s to mid 70s. Better scoring record than Albert, very impressive is he was in fact a winger. Lajos Tichy was more of an out and out center forward where his teammates were more well rounded forwards? Peaked in the early 60s, also played in the later peroids of the golden team and the transition between that team and this one. Very very strong goalscoring record with Hungary. #73 striker for Comme. János Göröcs is listed as the #69 attacking midfielder by Comme, although many put his position as a striker or forward. Seemed to be from the same time as Tichy, peaking in the early 60s as well as spanning the time between the golden team and this one. A good dribbler and passer. His goal scoring record was slightly lower than the others. Capped all the way through 1970. Janos Farkas peaked in the mid 60s alongside Albert, listed by most as a striker. Comme has him listed as the #51 forward. Not sure what specific areas he excelled in, more of a scorer than a passer? Good goalscoring record. Károly Sándor was capped 75 times between 1950 and 1964. Was an important player in the early years of this team. I am not sure how he overlapped with Czibor, I am guessing he was replaced by Bene? Scored an impressive 27 goals for his country from the wing. #41 right winger of all time for Comme. Máté Fenyvesi was another winger from the first half of the 60s. Earned 76 caps and from his goalscoring numbers appeared to be a more traditional winger. #64 left winger for Comme. Gyula Rákosi earned 41 caps between 1960 and 1968, #92 left winger allt time for Comme. Not sure how he coexisted with Fenyvesi and Bene. Goalscoring numbers are low indicating a traditional wingers role. László Fazekas did not start getting capped until 68, was he an important player during this period or did he take over after this teams decline in 1974? # 37 right winger for Comme. Antal Dunai was a striker in the later part of the era, average goalscoring record for country but good for club. Mostly featured in Olympics, I am guessing a cut below the rest? I just listed 10 forwards during this period. How did the pecking order work? How did they line up? What were their roles? Non-Fowards Don't know much about these guys none of their names are as big. Some of them seem to be top players but a am really not sure who this teams defensive/midfield standouts are. Kálmán Mészöly clearly has the best resume when looking at caps and reputation. Listed as a center back by most. Comme has him as #30 defensive midfielder. Ferenc Sipos another player with a good resume, 77 caps. wiki has him listed as a forward which cant be right. Comme has him as #50 sweeper. How did his and Meszoly play/function together? Ernő Solymosi not quite as big a resume as the two above but strong. 38 caps. Listed as a defender and a midfielder. Comme has him # 62 centerback. Sándor Mátrai excellent resume, only present at the beginning of the period. 81 caps. Commes #41 right back. Lajos Kocsis listed as a midfielder, played in the later part of the period. Lajos Szucs listed as a midfielder in the later part of the period. Any input would be appreciated.
I think that Hungary played during most of the 60s with a four-forward line with a playmaker behind them. In some of the WC'1966 matches could be a 3-FW line. My thoughts about the forwards: Albert; clearly the best of his generation, even comparable for contemporaries in the same class as the members of the Magycal Magyars. He was a #9 in the mould of Hidegkuti, i mean, he liked to withdrawn to pulling the strings Bene; in his club was mainly a striker, but the #9 shirt was owned by Albert, so in the NT he played as a Right Winger. Tichy; he was seen as the new blood after the dismantled of the Aranycsapat team, expecting to shined in the WC'1958. I think he played in all central trio forward roles. Göröcs; I think he was a #8, so he could be a playmaker or an orthodox inside forward. Farkas; I think he played both, Inside Left (mainly) and Left Winger, at least at NT. Sándor; he was a contemporary of the Magycal Magyars, but not a starter, maybe because he wasn't a Honved player. One of the best Right Wingers. Fenyvesi; mainly a Left Winger, but also an Inside Left. Rákosi; I think he played both Inside Forward and Winger position. Fazekas; when a veteran footballer he played in the WC'1978. I think he played both Right Winger and Right Mid Dunai; i'm not familiar with this guy. Maybe Bencsics, Machos could be good options?
Hungary 3 vs Brazil 1 in WC'1966 HUN: Gelei - Mátrai, Káposzta - Szepesi, Mészöly, Sipos (c) - Bene, Mathesz, Albert, Farkas, Rakosi BRA: Gilmar - D.Santos, Bellini (c), Altair, Paulo Henrique - Gerson, Lima - Garrincha, Alcindo, Tostão, Jairzinho Brazil playing 4-2-4. Hungary in 2-3-5 ordering shirt number, I guess could be a WM variant formation: with the Deep-Lying-Centreforward or the #8 as the playmaker. And a midfield duo: Sipos+Meszoly, with one of them as the deepest half, almost a 4th back. So, likely to 3-3-4.
I've been confused about actual line-up of Hungary 1966. For example, Matrai who played as Right Back most of his career, seems to played Centerback there. btw, here's an interesting thread by Harokin in XT http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=269815&page=13 I'll search for info provided in XT by posters: szövkap and kubala64, which are hungarian experts.
When I watched it before I was just watching for enjoyment really. And some players were unfamiliar to me (including names) so it was the familiar ones I 'noticed' the most - Albert, Bene plus Farkas of course. The line-up is shown on screen as 4-2-4 and I think maybe it was more like an outright 4-2-4 by then with Albert playing sort of like a deep-lying centre-forward role though (but carrying the ball more than Hidegkuti; striding through the middle with it before playing through balls or balls to the wingers - he was widely acclaimed Man of the Match I think and I remember others saying on a thread I posted the video to before that the performance is thought of by some as one of the best in World Cup history - it was certainly really good and Hungary played an excellent game generally). So if the deep-lying wing-half was now like a full-time back (as with England and Bobby Moore, despite that he ventured forwards quite often) maybe 4-2-1-3 or 4-2-3-1 even would describe it best. I'll see if I can conclude that from the footage though. But I suppose I'm thinking it has more in common with the Brazil 1958 formation rather than Hungary 1954 (Magical Magyars).
Watching the game versus Brazil Bene plays the right wing in the style of a modern day inside forward. He is often the most advanced player on the pitch and probably spent more time in the box than any other Hungarian player. Similar style to how CR7 plays the position now. Benes first goal was great as well. Could the reason for Albert's change in role with the national team come down to Gorocs involvement as first choice? When Gorocs is first choice (early 60s) Albert has a much better goalscoring ratio, possibly because he is playing further forward with Gorocs dropping deeper as the playmaker? Then once Gorocs losses his guaranteed first team spot Albert moves into his role as playmaker and scores far less goals in the mid 60s despite this being his peak time.
I've read that Bene was an inside (goalscoring) forward for his club. There is some footage at least of him playing for them, along with Fazekas on Youtube I know, but from later in the 60's or in the 70's in terms of what I've seen IIRC. I'm not sure about Gorocs, but my impression/understanding is that Albert did play generally higher up the pitch in his younger days (more in the Puskas role I suppose, but with his best qualities being his nimble turns, dribbling and good placement of his finishes according to the goals on Youtube). Tichy was like a centre forward alongside him I think but had also played the deep-lying centre-forward role a bit while Puskas and Kocsis still played for Honved I think. This is a good clip vs Botofogo btw (the Albert goals and Bene/Fazekas club footage should be easy to find I think):
I've just noticed now that the commentator expected Farkas to be behind the front 3, including Albert, in the Hungary-Brazil game. I'm not sure if that was dud info though, and clearly Albert was the one dropping deep and I've read him referred to as a deep-lying centre-forward at times too.
I guess they would remains to its roots, specially when they were the best team in the world. Note that some people argued that Magycal Magyars put the first stone to the 4-2-4 formation (being Zakarias the 4th back). If you watched the matches vs Uruguay'54 and vs England'53, its tactic isn't rigid, they could be labeled as precurssors of Total Football, for the rotation among its players during the match. It seems that during that period, they line-up their 5 upfront men in a four-forward-line with a playmaker behind. For its "roots" the playmaker was the D-L-CF mostly, but in other cases was the #8 (just like Brazil)
Maybe because Farkas was the nominal Inside Left. And in a classic WM, it was expected that the IFs played behind the wingers and CF. That would be a lack of info for the commentator, how Hungary used to play, very understandable by that era (lack of info).
Yeah, watching the Hungary-England game in full I'd say certainly generally Hidegkuti was further up the pitch than Bozsik, not only more forward oriented like Didi when playing alongside Zito. But I see why some label the DL-CF (in Hidegkuti era, not necessarily Albert era) as an AM and some Hungarians even, plus Bobby Robson, have called the system from 1953 a 4-2-4. It's also been called a WW - a 3-2-3-2 I think and that seems more correct to me. I do see what you mean in terms of being a precursor to playing 4 up front (or arguably two wingers as part of an AM line, coming deeper than the centre-forward anyway) and yeah the Hungary team was very fluid.
Yeah, he was a number 10 wasn't he (shirt number). The English would have been aware Hungarian number 9's didn't always play as traditional centre-forwards of course but he does refer to 4 forwards (including Albert) so I guess he'd picked up something from previous games. I forgot to say in the previous post that Bobby Charlton had been called a DL-CF according to RoyoftheRovers (while wearing number 9) and he did play for Man Utd as more of a central midfielder than a forward at that time.
It's a good thread! Let's quickly review their prior - greatest team of 50's so called the Magical Magyars Playing in a "traditional 2 3 5" in starting lineup, but Coach Gustav Serbes has tweaked it in a revolution way - the first time world football saw a "False 9" or Depp-lying CF (in Hidegkuti) in to #8 and Puskas #10 linking up well, while the "tradintional #8" of Kocsis became the scoring FW Above is the "supposed 2 3 5 starting line up in a Traditional Pyramid Formation with: Cziborg (11) Puskas (10) Hedegkuti(9) Kocisis (8) Budai (7) ----------Lantos (5) --- Bosik(6) -- Busanski(4)----------- ----------------Zakaria (3) ---- Lorant (2) ----------------- ---------------------------Gorssic(1)------------------------- However during the games, they played more like this: The impact of the defeat reached far and wide. Ramsey, England's ageing right-back that day, was opened up to a whole new world of possibilities - it was his decision to play without wingers that helped England's 'Wingless Wonders' win the World Cup on home soil in 1966. Two more future England managers were watching on from the stands - Ron Greenwood and 20-year-old Fulham forward Bobby Robson. "We saw a style of play, a system of play that we had never seen before," said Robson years later. "All these fantastic players, they were men from Mars as far as we were concerned. The way they played, their technical brilliance and expertise - our WM formation was kyboshed in 90 minutes of football. "The game had a profound effect, not just on myself but on all of us. That one game alone changed our thinking. We thought we would demolish this team - England at Wembley, we are the masters, they are the pupils. It was absolutely the other way. Were the Hungarians of the 1950s the best football team of all time?
This is Hungary team at WC1966 The team in action .... Photo From: World Soccer, September 1966 Florian Albert (inside FW) key player in center pitch (vs Gilmar, July 15, 1966, World Cup, Hungary 3-Brazil 1) Farkas, another inside FW also key player! (Scoring the most beautiful goal vs Brazil 1966 in Hungary WC history) FERENC BENE' : The CF (main Striker) with 4goals+2ass/4games at WC 1966 MÉSZÖLY, KÁLMÁN : Key Center half (main DF) of the team 66 - tried to stop Eusebio
Yes in theory, Hungary 62 to 66 played as 4 2 4 line up (2 3 5 modified) But you are spot on, that in real pitch of the game they were more like a 4 2 1 3 to 4 2 3 1 (offset) with only Bene as lone CF while Albert, Farkas withdrew deeper to connect with Sipos (C) and Imre Mathesz as the two main CM/DM
Yeah I think that was pretty much it. Have a watch of the game though as I think you'll agree that Bene does play more from the right in that team. Whether Farkas was coming from deeper and not playing as a CF is possible (I should have paid more attention but I think he was more often than Albert being the player to be in the central area waiting for chances, while Albert dropped deaper so perhaps like a 'modern' false 9 even moreso than a Hidegkuti style DL-CF). The Farkas goal is scored when Albert plays a pass from midfield, wide to Bene who crosses for Farkas to volley of course and I'm thinking those movements were fairly typical IIRC but I'd need to watch again to see exactly the movements Farkas was generally making. I don't think he was playing like an Inzaghi type though.
I agree with yours points @PDG1978 Put Bene in an italian team, and he would be seen as a kind of Gigi Riva but in the right side. I guess you know what i mean. A nominally winger who played as a Second Striker. In the case of Farkas, he could be seen as the most advanced forward, but he was playing most of the time for the inside left channel. This confusion it happens because through history, there were some teams who played without a "fox in the box" or a poacher striker, but players who performed close to a striker role, most of these players were goalgetters inside forwards who used to played alongside a striker, but in that special teams without a striker partner. Some examples could be the ones of Wunderteam, Magycal Magyars, Real Madrid in his first European Cups.
Yes Bene was Outside right FW in many times (but also played as CF) Here is a theoretical 4 2 4 formation and number: But as said earlier, in real game Hungary 66 played an offset 4 2 4 looking more like 4 2 3 1 or 3 3 4 ------------------------ Szentmihályi(1) ------------------------------- -------Káposzta(2)--------------- Mátrai(3)----------Sóvári(4)----- ----------------------Mészöly(5) ----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------Sipos (6)------------------- --------------Varga (8)-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------F Albert (9) ----Farkas (10) --- Rakosi(11)------ ------- Bene (7) ---------------------------------------------------------- NOtes: in WC66, Varga was replaced by Ivan Nagy (14)
Agreed. Only, in the WC 1966, the #8 role was performed by Nagy or Mathesz. btw, i'm not sure whether Meszoly and Sipos were switching roles or played fixed roles, because some contemporaries journos rated Meszoly as one of the best DMs of the tournament.
good notice ... I thinkthey both had freedom in switching role per se. Mezoly started as a CB *4 2 4 , but he played more like a DM/libero of 3 3 4 or 3 2 4 1 in certain games. his style was like a "Beckenbauer type" of Hungary - he was a great libero who could participate in attack (he got 2goals+1ass in 4games WC66) while Sipos the captain who control, destroy MF and also particpate in defense like a sweeper in case
Having watched the Brazil-Hungary WC game a couple of times, my reading of the formation is: ------------------Szentmihalyi------------------- ------------------------------------------------- --Kaposzta----------Matrai-------------Szepezi--- ----------------------------------Sipos---------------- -----------------Meszoly------------------------- --------Mathesz---------------------------------- ----------------------Albert----------------Rakosi---- ---------------------------------Farkas-------------- ------Bene--------------------------------------- However, there are times when Mezsoly drops into the back line with Sipos, depending on the match situation, but in the second half particularly he is playing more in DM. It's also notable that Kaposzta gets forward a lot more than than the left back, and Matrai tends to cover him when he gets forward. Rakosi plays more like a left mid than a winger.
Looks about right. I would have assumed myself that Meszoly was the 4th defensive player indeed, but I certainly wasn't paying a lot of attention to Sipos and I can't recall much at all about the way he played (easier to concentrate on the famous attacking players, and when not familiar with the team and players as a whole, I think not so much sticks in the mind for some players - also not so easy when we don't watch from the start of the game with a clear idea of the formation, wheras if teams played 4-4-2 it's easier to know in which role each player nominally plays). I certainly noticed Rakosi pretty deep quite often I remember though.