Hugh Dallas sends off player for u know what

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by NYC, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Best post in this thread.
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What is or is not "a lot" is subjective. I disagree with you, Thomas.

    In particular, he was leading the charge when his goal was disallowed against Poland. If only he had worked to get back on defense instead....
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It reads, to me, that Spain thought the crew sucked. If it were corruption, it wouldn't be "mistakes" that were the problem. And as I read the statement about "prejudice," well, English obviously isn't this guy's first language. To me, a word like "harmed" or "disadvantaged" would have been better.
    Thomas, on what do you base your assertion that the Spanish thought the WC was rigged? You have quoted some stuff about the referees sucking, but I don't see anything about rigging.

    What's that cliche? "Don't assume malevolence when incompetence will do."
     
  4. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
     
  5. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Well was it one day, or was it two days? Because by two days later, if I recall correctly, other games had been played.
     
  6. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    I was in the first row of section 2, just beyond the net, to Kahn's right. The World Soccer photo was taken from a similar vantage point on the left side. That photographer seems closer than I was, but it was probably a telephoto lense.
    The Guardian article said it was not just the Spanish that thought the game was rigged, going on to say that some Koreans concurred. I think you can infer from this that at least some Spanish thought it was rigged. Surely, you folks remember the outcry by the Spanish after the game.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then will you please admit you didn't have a "perfect view?" Unless you're looking down the line, you don't have a perfect view at a play like this.

    You had a good look, but not a great look. Let alone a perfect view.

    Could you please quote those sections of the article? Or provide a link?

    Thanks.
     
  8. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    Vfish, I brought up the Norway game because of the discussion we had about the ref being in electronic contact with someone not on the field. When I repeated what I had read in the newspaper, a moderator said I should be committed to a mental hospital and my law license taken away. So it was gratifying to have MassRef confirm that the ref IS IN ELECTRONIC CONTACT with someone who is not on the playing field, in this case, the AR who stands out of bounds.
    I agree that the call in the Norway game was correct. Heck, all 3 refs we had at the 1998 World Cup did a good job. The refs we had in 1996-97 qualfiying were also good. This time was different.
     
  9. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    "It is not just the Spanish who suspect this World Cup is rigged in favour of its co-hosts. Fifa also received 400,000 irate emails from Italian fans following their controversial second-round defeat by South Korea. For such allegations even to be on the agenda is a damaging blow to this or any World Cup."


    This excerpt was already posted from the Guardian article in case you missed it the first time.
     
  10. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    There are certainly no perfect angles in that video. But...In quick time, you can pause and drag the arrow to do slow mo

    If you look at the first replay, you can see that Frings feet are about 6 inches in front of the line, with his knees bent and he appears to be leaning backwards, so that his body is in the plane of the goal.

    Then, he puts his hand all the way behind his body, which would imply that the ball crossed over the goal. At first, when I saw where his hand was before the ball hit it, I thought that the ball had to have certainly crossed the line.

    Looking at that first replay, however, you can see that Frings watches the ball the whole way and at the last instant moves his hand forward to strike the ball and immediately moves his hand back again behind his back.

    You have to watch very closely, but tell me if you don't see this. His left arm is in the same field of vision as the post. Right before the ball hits his hand, it looks as though his hand is attached to the post - right at the fingers, then there is a bit of space, indicating that he moved it forward, then it is back even with the post again. He moved his hand TO the ball, probably about 6 inches

    Intent is there. I wasn't sure until now. In the run of play, it would have been impossible to see him move his hand forward. Dallas just didn't see it. Probably should make any handball on the goaline a penalty
     
  11. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, I thought that the above quote was your words, not the Guardian's.

    Clearly, the conclusion of the Guardian is not supported by their own article.

    I wonder, Thomas, if you can find the Spanish themselves saying the game was rigged, and not the Guardian saying the Spanish saying the game was rigged.

    Thanks.
     
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I made that suggestion way back when, that any contact, even ball to hand, should be a penalty if the arm is not directly at the player's side, and the player is on the goalline. Give a redcard if the ref thinks the defender "deliberately" handled the ball, in terms of an overt act (either not moving out of the way, the arm in a clearly unnatural position, or moving toward the ball.)

    I understand how one can argue that Dallas made the right call. I, personally, based on his postgame comments on the play, believe he did not see it.

    But I still come back to one key point...there's a reason that players run around their area with their arms behind them. And a player who was just defending the line, not marking a player?!?!?! I would argue that common sense makes that a handball. My understanding is that the normal practice for refs in this situation is to let the defender get away with it if his arm is in a normal position. But I believe that "normal practice" is wrong.
     
  13. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    which would also prevent players from moving their arms imperceptibly, to the ref 15-30m away, to block the ball with an "unintentional" hand ball.

    But I've said it before, I'd be ES-F-ing-STATIC if they would just enforce the rules already there.
     
  14. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    You gentlemen may be interested in FIFA's latest effort at damage control. They must be concerned or they would not keep the fire hoses turned on high.

    http://www.fifa.com/Service/MR_A/42503_E.html

    It is a very poorly written article but does have a good photo of the handball.
     
  15. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    Thomas,
    You've mentioned Portugal and their beef with the refereeing, but you also said that the refs were biased against us for the Portugal game.

    What were you referring to for Portugal?
     
  16. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They're concerned people might start to believe people like you. And the pic is very good, but shows absolutely nothing in regards to where it was in relation to the line.
     
  17. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Port Whine

    Portugal was upset about playing two men down against the Koreans. Of course the underachieving Portuguese have a long history of bellyaching about refereeing.
     
  18. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It puts the lotion in the basket....
     
  19. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    1. It's a pretty damn well-written article
    2. It's a very good photo of a ball hitting a player's hand. The ball, by the way, is clearly not over the line.

    How exactly is an op-ed piece 'damage control?'

    When was this story written and posted, hmm? I see they're also keeping "the fire hoses turned on high" with a controversial story about how great it felt for Ronaldo to lift the cup.
     
  20. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/countries/story/0,11936,742813,00.html

    Found the quote. Judge for yourself. Here's some more excerpts:

    The idea of linesmen from Malaysia and the Maldives being on the take in South Korea should be too far-fetched for even the most ardent Azzurri fan.

    Fifa's director of communications, Keith Cooper, was more direct in his denial, dismissing the notion of corruption as "pathetic juvenile hogwash". "Conspiracy theories crop up in all walks of life," he continued, "and in 99% of cases they are unfounded. This one is one of the 99%."

    The alleged superpowers of football's first world are having a difficult enough time accepting South Korea and Turkey as semi-finalists alongside Brazil and Germany, without being given the opportunity to wail about underhand plots.
     
  21. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    ...or it gets the hose again.

    (BTW - It ain't me doing the pm'ing...and I don't covet what I see everyday around here.)
     
  22. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    The real problem (at least as I understand it) with the Assistant Referees was that they are usually center referees during their league season. Rather than FIFA choosing the best Assistant Referees, they're choosing the next-best referees.

    In some cases, these guys haven't run the touchline in years in a competitive match.
     
  23. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    Damage control for the ref scandal was the second item on the FIFA home page, more than 2 months after the games in question. The caption of the photo says that the handball was inches from the goal line. The ball went completely over the goal after the deflection.
    The world is so football-mad FIFA probably thinks it can get away with anything, but they must be running scared at a certain level to continue the propaganda for so long. People will not pay money to watch rigged games. Much of the world thinks some of the games at the Cup were rigged.
    Dark Night, I was not referring to you. You have always been pretty decent on this and other BBs.
     
  24. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    P
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    As has been pointed out, if you were seated where you say you were seated, it would have been impossible for you to get a definitive look at this.
     

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