It was me. I figured it's better to take my problems with Thomas' loose interpretation of facts to PM-land. He wants it public. I'll defer to DK and keep it to a minimum. So can we all agree that none of these pictures or videos show any definitive proof as to the location of the ball in relation to the line? None were stationed along the line. And give than Dallas was 20 yards away and had as many as four players in front of him when the handball happened, I think we should chalk it all up to a quick decision that was made poorly instead of a grand conspiracy. P.S. Tom - that wasn't even close to belligerent (that's the proper spelling, BTW, in case you ever need to use that to charge someone with harassment or anything like that)
The laws governing the spatial-temporal continuum are much different on Planet Flannigan. I'm surprised you don't know that by now.
Re: Port Whine I know about that, but I don't figure anyone would complain for Portugal--both of those ejections were very well deserved. I thought maybe he had another beef.
I am wrong about a lot of things in life but I try to be scrupulously honest. That is why endless TOS violations calling me a liar are so curious. Now one of the gang says I was not where I said I was at the game. If you go to the Emerald City Gazette website, photos, and go to the Germany game there are two video clips of the American section raising the flag and singing the national anthem. You can see me in the front row, dressed like Uncle Sam. My wife, holding our little daughter wrapped in a small American flag, stands next to me. You guys really should go to an USMNT game and cheer instead of calling me an insane person here. We need all the help we can get. Everybody around me thought that the ball was over the line. That is why the cheering section went wild. There were many plays at the Cup where I did not have a good view of the play so I cannot give my own opinion on them. This call, as well as the BS dive and foul that led to the only German goal, were right in front of me. THE BALL WAS OVER THE LINE!!!!!
Why do you keep writing this? And if you're right, then why are you posting in a thread about Hugh Dallas? It's not his responsibility to make such calls, it's the AR's.
That's the problem, Thomas. It was right in front of you, so you had no angle to judge whether or not the ball went over the line or not.
This is one of the problems with American soccer. The gang of people who insult and hound me whenever I post here never seem to go to games, and always side with FIFA when there is a controversy surrounding the refs. No matter how outrageous Hugh Dallas or Rodolofo Sibrian are they are defended like the last beer in the refrigerator. A few people here have said Dallas did a fine job. i think that is absolutely outrageous but I am not going to insult that person or question their sanity. Maybe if you would go to some games you would feel the passion and help our national cause rather than siding with the Germans and Mexicans all the time.
I think I've been pretty patient with you so far, but if you're going to pretend to be on the "I don't insult people" high road you better apologize for that. Look, Thomas, I'd even like to believe you that the ball crossed the line. I'm willing to accept that the issue is in doubt. But you state your subjective perception as if it is objective fact, without relying on any other evidence. Even when I want to agree with you, I find your logic so disturbingly insufficient that it's hard to take up your cause. It's an objective fact that you don't KNOW anymore than any of us whether the ball went over. Why can't you just say, "I think it did" and I'd agree with you instead of acting like you have some possession of innate truth the rest of the world is not privy to and that you are not inclined to share. Instead, you pretend to be the honest and indignant one calling into question my passion and loyalty to the U.S. team? Be ashamed. And don't ever say you don't resort to insults ever again.
This is getting ugly. Here's the problem: You have convinced no one that Dallas or Sibrian was involved in a FIFA fix, nor have you convinced anyone that there is in fact a FIFA conspiracy, yet you continually INSIST that such facts are true. You rarely introduce evidence to your arguments, and when people challenge the validity of the evidence you do occasionally introduce, you either ignore their objections, or introduce new "evidence," or respond by implying that your opponents are themselves complicit in the Great FIFA Conspiracy Cover-up. Then you act wounded when people respond to YOUR OWN unethical debating practices with ad hominum attacks, as if you haven't already insulted the intelligence of all the people who are trying to get you to debate these issues in a conventional manner. It's getting old. I'm wondering if you're not actually enjoying pulling everyone's chain, or, God forbid, if your meds need to be adjusted.
We have had the same argument many times and the same people gather to insult me and ALWAYS side with the foreigner. They NEVER defend the U.S. team no matter what Rodolfo Sibrian or Hugh Dallas does to us. I would love to put you guys in a room full of Germans and make the argument that you can stand on the goal line with your arms outstretched and argue that it was not deliberate if you deflect a ball at the line with your hand. They would laugh you out of court. Beckenbauer made the point better than I. He is a man of few words.
Is there a conspiracy to not have fun around here? SEE!!??!!?? That's the problem around here. Look, there's no games anytime soon. There's no news. There's nothing. Except some pent-up passion. I agree with Thomas in one respect (and in doing so, I put words in his mouth): This is a perfectly good time to get BITTER. It keeps our passion sharp. And it's fun! Damn Hugh Dallas for not being on top of the call. Damn him for lying about seeing it. Damn him for the ridiculous call against Eddie Lewis that led to the German goal. Damn the out-of-position linesman for calling Donovan offside when he was held on by two (count 'em) two German defenders. Being bitter doesn't diminish anything. It doesn't mean we didn't enjoy every minute of the World Cup. Far from it, it was so exciting and absorbing I (and most of you) didn't sleep well for the month of the Cup and a month afterwards. Our team was sleazed. And it's our team. So if I want to say "the ref sucked", big deal. If Thomas wants to say "looks like a conspiracy," big deal. Hey you guys, don't rain on our parade of bitterness -- this is really the first time in US soccer history when we've had the right, the privilege, of feeling righteously bitter. How cool is that? Out of bitterness will come resolve. Out of resolve will come something better, like kicking some Euro butt in '06. This is perversely fun. Why are you conspiring against it?
This is why you are regarded as the town drunk, Tom. By criticizing the way other people choose to spend their money or degrading people for not having the same means as you and calling them bad Americans, you cast yourself as a holier than thou sort who would rather tear down other Americans and blame everything on some backroom conspiracy than admit that life just isn't fair sometimes. So sue me for choosing to keep my small child at home instead of carting her hither and yon to spend money that would better go toward paying the electric bill and keeping a roof over our head. Was the ball handled? In my opinion, yes. Did the ball cross the line? We'll never know because the camera angles are inconclusive and, frankly, I've watched enough sporting events from enough angles to know that the fan often has the worst perspective when judging depth of field, etc. Did Hugh Dallas make a bad call? Yes. Does a bad call at a crucial time of the game indicate a conspiracy? Absolutely not. I'm sorry if it bothers you that I have enough in my life to go to sleep content knowing that we played our asses off and one bad call combined with great goaltending by Kahn kept us from the semifinals. And keep trotting out the thread you started before the crash where you clearly stated you believed a conspiracy was awash to boot the US out after the group stage. The Final Eight does not an early exit make. But don't you dare make value judgements on how I choose to spend my hard-earned money and call me a bad person for not putting myself in debt just to conform to your opinion of a good American. You may be at the front of the line when it comes to holding the flag at MNT games, but, you are at the back of the line when it comes to class and dignity in representing our country thanks to your constant blind criticism of other American fans, foreign officials and anyone who doesn't subscribe to your narrow view of the world.
Most of my critics have not tried to cheer on the USMNT of late. The games have been so close to Pennsylvania and other home locales. I know everyone can't afford 200 dollars or more to go to a city and take in a game. But if you plan it can happen, and it is more productive than trying to bait someone on the Internet. The US WILL WIN THE WORLD CUP!!! We almost did it this time. We had the best team.
1) The ball was not completely over the line. 2) Handling the Ball should not have been called. The call came straight up off of Kahn's glove into Fringes hand. Stop arguing about it and get over it.
Jesus this thread has gone from terrible to frickin' stupid. And I do not mean that as a bash on Flannigan or any other poster here. As a whole, you would hope we could come up with something better than this. Then again, maybe not.
This thread is getting just a tad ridiculous. It's making the Clint V Arena threads look civil for christs' sake. Bottom line: It's probably about time for the key people in this thread to agree to disagree. As with any thread that goes as long and gets as heated as this one, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of the 2 extremes. For example, I have no idea why Dallas kept on buying the constant German dives. It was embarassingly obvious. I also thought the foul that lead to the goal was a dive. On the flip side, Dallas missed some calls both ways, and I liked the fact that he explained exactly why he was giving a card when he pulled one out. I didn't see that as condescending at all. At the crux of this debate is the handball non call. That's a 50/50 scenario. Sometimes it will be called, sometimes it won't. There is no instant replay in soccer, and that play happened quickly, with alot of bodies in the way. We can't even produce conclusive footage on where the ball was, so how was Dallas supposed to know with the naked eye seeing a play in a split second? These things happen. We played a great game and our players walked off that field with their heads held high and a nation proud of their accomplishments. There is no need to spoil that now by acting like some of the more irrational Italian/Spanish fans. Chill people. It's all good. JMac
FIFA loves it if people say it could have gone either way, I really could not tell where the ball was, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and so on. That way they can give us another Dallas or Rodolfo Sibrian and the same people will alibi for them no matter how bad the calls are. Our players did not bitch after the game, which is a good thing. They could not do so anyway because Americans are not allowed to complain about the refs while Oliver Kahn and others are. I congratulated the German fans after the game and wished them well. But we were robbed and the whole world saw it. Yeah, Dallas explained the cards, in a demeaning fashion. I have never seen cards given (he gave 2) for not forming the wall properly. Three players were suspended. THREE PLAYERS WERE SUSPENDED AND THAT CARRIES OVER INTO THE CONFEDERATIONS CUP. But the jerk still patronized our players like they were 3 years old and needed to have the the rules explained to them. That game was rigged just like the the games involving Korea. We could have won the World Cup if the game had not been rigged. I admire the Spanish, Italians and many Germans who say that some of the games were rigged. It is the only way you can stop this kind of corruption. Oh, I forgot, shucks. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, we can't be sure you know, there is no instant replay. The truth lies in FIFA's Swiss bank accounts. Just my opinions.
Handling SHOULD have been called. Go look at the video of which there is one on this thread. He moved his hand forward at the last instant. I explained how to watch it on an earlier post. Typical big soccer to argue about something you CAN'T see, (ball over line) and ignore something that you can ( his hand moving forward.
So is the question here 1. Did the ball cross the line 2. Is there a FIFA conspiracy against the US 3. Does monster travel to enough US Nat games 4. Was the US the best team in the 2002 WC 5. If Tom knows that everyone can't save money to go to a game but in the next sentence says they can if they plan it, why do we not have 230 million people at every game I get confused easily these days.
Thomas, a question. If all this is just opinion, why not write it as such? "I believe that...It seems to me that...IMO...I think that...." There's all kinds of phrases that you can use.