How to deal with a referee that is wrong (from coaches/spectator hat)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Wahoo, Oct 22, 2007.

  1. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Implicating that the official is "violating the code of ethics" Is where I think it all went wrong. Ask for his name, if he doesn't give it, get it from somewhere else, don't make up some crap about Code of Ethics or pull out your assessors card. As refereejow pointed out, it could easily be seen as a conflict of interest...

    And I am a state referee, state assessor and coach, and this behavior in my mind is just unbelieveable...

    ANR
     
  2. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    I think he was fine to ask for the referee's name and don't see where he was baiting the referee. He asked for the refs name and it was the referee who elevated the situation. I don't know if I'd have mentoined violating ethics.

    The ref should have simply given his name and ended it rather than trying to prove how "right" he was - it wasn't going to end there anyway. What the ref did is essentially the same as when a coach harasses a ref about a call... but this time it was the ref hassling a coach about a call.

    That said, if I'm the coach - I'd just ask for his name again and add... "if you don't want to give it, I'll tell the assignor you were nonresponsive when I contact him. He'll know who did the game anyway. Have a nice evening."

    Actually that reminds me of an official that was baiting my asst coach the other week. He let an obvious trip go, and my asst coach (who complains too much - I'm dealing with him) complained it was a trip. The referee looks at me (don't know why when it was obvious where the complaint came from) and said... "If that's a foul I'd probably call it on your team". Then later when he did call a trip on a player on my team (it was a correct call) he looked at my bench and said "Now that was a trip". Absolutely no reason for a ref to say either of those things.
     
  3. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rereading this thread I can see how this may be very begnin, however, no where is it specified that I MUST give my name to someone who asks for it, coach or otherwise. Please correct me if I am wrong, and if this is in the league rules, then point that out. But a strict constuctionalist view of the "ethics of referees" says "I will not make any statements about any game except to clarify an interpretation of the laws.

    My name does not an interpretation of the law make...

    But, you have to be there.... While nonya may have thought he approached the referee in a civilized manner, his earlier explaination of having to cool down and have his players cool down seems to me the referee could have thought this was an opening ruse to debate a call. Additionally, sayind good game, but give me you name because I want to contact your assigner, really seems to negate the good game comment. Seems snide to me. If that was the case, then i wouldn't give my name either. I would have said, contact the assigner, they know who I am. I would also file a report about the incident. Additionally, if I was the official, and the coach "pulls out his card," then this demonstrates that my inital thought of provocing a confontation was correct, along with the good game comment, which was unneeded because it seems you didn't think he did a good game and needed to talk to his assigner and let him know thats what you were doing.

    You tell me your name.
    No.
    (then some explaination of the call... (which is in the code of ethics I might add).
    You give me your name.
    No.
    Well I am an assessor.
    Then get it from the league.
    Walk away.
    File report.

    If this is how the situation went down, and I am sure I am missing some points, then I know the association and league would support me, no matter who was the coach.

    In fact, I had a similar situation with the coach being a former SRA. I said I would not discuss the judgement aspect of a call. He said, then I am calling (our SRA current) and report you. Ok, he did, I filed a report and got a nice letter of appolgy from both current and previous SRA....

    At least in my state, being an assessor means I can call any assignor and find out who did a match. Never would I approach a referee and try to "stick it to him" by I want your name so I can report it to the athorities.

    Nonya, you should have known better (not knowing you personally, but if a state assessor), and I hope if this situation happens again, you would handle it differently.

    ANR

    I don't mean to be overly critical, but we all make bad calls, hell we talk about the bad calls in MLS, and after the game coming off as threatening, is just bad form... I just wish I could find the Coaches code of ethics....
     
  4. nonya

    nonya Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    wow..talk about a you had to be there, maybe I didn't clarify.

    After the match, I approached the referee and told him good game. That is all I said to him, then I asked him for his name, which he refused to give. In the league I was in at the time, the referee's were required to give their name to a coach with a coaches pass if they ask for it, and that is all they have to give. As a coach I couldn't ask for anything else, and I didn't.

    The referee, who actually handled the game well, flew way off the handle when I asked for his name. I never argued with the guy, I just let him go off (it was funny because I felt like the referee getting yelled at by a coach.) He was definitely violating Code C part 2 of referee ethics. I then told him that he did a good job and not only was I coach but a referee and assessor as well to actually try to calm him down, which he didn't believe. I never threatened the guy, or told him anything else. At which point, I showed him my registration cards and put them back in my wallet, he immediately calmed down. I asked him if he was alright, that I wasn't assessing him or anything, I just needed his name as our league mandates.

    As an assessor, one of the things you look at is the referee's attitude towards players and coaches, and their reactions. When the referee completely and totally flew off the handle that gave me cause for concern.

    Now, if that is such a huge big deal for people on this board then wow is all I have to say.
     
  5. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    nonya,

    As I said, it was a had to be there... with your clarification, and the description of league rules, then the situation makes more sense.

    If you re-read your post, you can see how some, including myself, would come the the conclusion that has been previously stated.

    Thanks for your input, and never any intention to create poor relations with you...

    Hell we all live and learn.

    And this is good information about how to deal with this situation. You presented a specific situation and others responded how they would handle it.

    Reading your second posts, I recind any criticism, but with the information given, and knowing that coaches do read this forum too, you can understand why the community reacted as it did.

    Also realize I had had a similar situation as I documented so I was probably (or likely) projecting that situation on you.

    Good luck, as always
    ANR
     
  6. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Nonya, as much as I'm sure you're a very nice guy and generally do a great service to the game, I just can't support how you handled the situation. I'm sure things were not as bad as they initially came across, but consider the following:

    1. You approach the referee after the game.
    2. You ask him for his name.
    3. You tell him he is violating the code of ethics.
    4. You flash your assessor card when you weren't acting as an assessor.

    Regardless of how you try to describe the situation, these are not things you should do. Period. (BTW, What kind of stupid rule says a referee must give a coach his name after a game? You might as well require the coach and referee to duke it out after the game!)

    It doesn't matter how "right" you are, nobody wants to be put in their place unless they ask. You can be the most "right" person in the world, but if people don't want to hear it then you lose.

    No matter what, going up to a referee and asking for his name after a match is practically as bad as yelling obscenities at him. How about something along the lines of, "Hi there, I thought you did a really great job tonight. I'm actually a referee and state assessor myself, and think you have some good potential. I don't usually talk to the referees after a match, but I was wondering if you'd be interested in some feedback. Oh, by the way, I'm [name], what's yours? [his name]? Great, so, how about it?"

    There are just so many ways that you can handle the situation that would be better than what you describe. I highly recommend next time that you just leave the referee alone, especially if, as you said, he did a good job outside of the one call.
     
  7. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's really not at all uncommon in my area for leagues to allow coaches to file their own game reports if they have a problem with the referee. In such a case, the referee should expect that he may be asked to provide his name and should have no problem doing so. I've had this happen to me twice where a coach said he was going to file a game report. Never did I feel incensed, in fact I encouraged it in both cases. I knew where I stood and was confident in my calls. Even if not required, why should a referee ever have a problem giving his name. We have the coach's name so why is it such a big deal? I also don't see why this invites conflict. So what if a coach reports your performance, unless you did a shoddy job you have nothing to fear.

    The nice thing about a coaches game report in theory is that it allows the coach to feel a little less helpless when he feels he's been wronged by a referee. The thought being this should lead to less dissent. Don't know if it works or not but it certainly doesn't eliminate dissent.

    Nonya, thanks for clarifying the situation, it does sound better the second time around.
     
  8. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Yes, there WAS a reason why the ref said those things, and I think you know the reason -- he was irritated by dissent from your coaching staff! That doesn't make the referee's comments appropriate, but I get very frustrated when coaches are taken aback after a ref 'fights back' verbally after being badgered verbally by players/coaches/fans/administrators.

    Each ref has his/her own tolerance level in a given situation, and each ref will make his/her own response. Sometimes those responses are not appropriate. I'm not putting you in this group based on the story you recounted, but it blows me away that so many people seem to think they can say anything they want to a ref and the ref should just take it all without saying ANYTHING. It shouldn't work like that, and when I've got the whistle it doesn't.
     
  9. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I like the procedure one of the leagues I referee in uses...Every referee has a number in that league, and that number is written on the game card where the players/coaches names are listed. The lineups are exchanged with the coaches who now have my number at the beginning of the game. All they have to do is give my number to the league if they want to report something about the game.

    I coached for 10 years in youth soccer, and I can safely say that while I did have a couple of games over the years where I was a little befuddled by calls, I never had the urge to send in a complaint about an official. I started to force myself to wait 24 hours to think about the decisions and the play of my team, and usually time was a good salve.

    However, since watching HS soccer, I have wanted to report about 90 % of the referees I have observed.

    R
     
  10. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree. When someone starts off a conversation asking for our name, we as referees know implicitly that there is something more behind this than just a friendly introduction. It's was condescending to start off the conversation by stating good game and then immediately ask for his name.
    There's a big difference. Nonya approached the referee. The referee is leaving the field and he is engaged by the coach. Moreover, we don't know how he approached him. What was his body language or facial expression. It can say a lot. Perhaps enough for the referee to surmise that the coach was irritated or had some agenda. Did the referee get a response as to why Nonya wanted his name other than he wanted to speak to his assignor? What did he want to speak to his assignor about, the one call that got under Nonya's skin, or about other aspects of his refereeing. We don't know if Nonya refused to answer the referee's question on why he wanted to speak to his assignor. Did the referee conclude it must be about the call that the players were upset about? Just what was that call?

    Couple that with the fact that we are only getting his side of the story, there is more to this than is being reported on these boards. We don't know Nonya. We don't know how he behaves during a match or how his assistants or parents behave for that matter. We don't know the flight and exact age of the players (U10 to U14?) or whether the match was highly disputed and/or physical. There is more to this than what is being reported and what troubles me most is the manner in which Nonya wrote his initial post. It drips of smugness and arrogance. That is not what an assessor or referee should be.

    Having refereed and coached for a very long time. I do not recall more than a handful of times that I approached a referee and spoke to them and nearly all occasions they were youth referees to tell them that they did a good job and several occasions I offered to tell them to not be afraid to blow the whistle loudly.

    We all know that if a referee screws up, there is not much you can do and the likelihood that they would be receptive to your criticism is moot.
     
  11. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    I must be missing something here. I always had a word w/both coaches before a match so I had their identity written down. That would be the time for them to identify me.

    Play on.....
     
  12. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    In my opinion, the majority of the time that a coach wants to talk with a referee after the match it is to discuss a 'negative' not a positive. And the majority of the time a coach wants to know a referee's name, it is to follow up with someone else about a 'negative' thing the referee said/did, not a positive.

    If I were coaching and if I wanted to follow up with an assignor or other soccer administrator regarding a negative thing about a referee, I would NOT ask the referee for his name. There is very little chance that anything good will come of that post-match interaction between coach and ref, no matter how diplomatic or smooth the coach may be. There is a very good chance that something bad will come of this post-match interaction.

    The coach should not engage the referee in these situations. Just let it go and follow up himself with the administrators later on. The coach does not NEED to get the referee's name right then and there.
     
  13. ranova

    ranova Member

    Aug 30, 2006
    As a coach I don't feel that its my place to explain the LOTG to the referee. It is my job to make sure that my players understand the LOTG and show respect to the ref even when clearly wrong.

    In the specific examples, the CR is not telling the team something "wrong." He is explaining in examples 1 and 3 ahead of time how he will call the game. You may wish that he would call the game otherwise, but that doesn't mean that he is incorrectly describing how he is going to call the game. In example 2 he is explaining a non-call. You might disagree with his decision, but that doesn't mean his explanation of his thinking is inaccurate.

    In any game I expect mistakes. If I was using Grade 8 and 9 refs (which I don't) I would not be surprised to see some misinterpretation of the finer points of the laws. As a coach I don't particularly care about misinterpretations as long as the ref is consistent. The exception is safety, misunderstandings of the rules that are safety matters are a concern to me, but I cannot think of a single example where the coaches and players cannot make up for the ref's deficiency. For instance on the shoulder charge issue, the coaches can insure that their players understand what a proper shoulder charge is and don't illegally charge. Players and coaches can chose not to take advantage of referee misunderstandings of the rules. Also as a rule I never second guess a referee protecting the players, e.g., calling dangerous play, and generally don't get upset at referee judgment calls if the refs judgment is different than mine.

    Finally I normally speak to the ref before the game, during the half, and after the game. Before the game to discuss any rules modifications and my expectations regarding any difficulties such as faded lines (normally expressed as we only expect the ref to do the best he can under the conditions). During halftime and after the game to congratulate the ref. My usual comment is to thank him for a good game (as in fun) as that (along with safety) I feel is the highest complement and what matters the most.
     
  14. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Regarding names:

    I introduce myself to the coaches before a match.

    When rosters are exchanged between teams, I write my name on the copy before passing it along (along with noting number changes and the like).

    I make sure that the coach's name is on the roster or write in the name of the substitute coach (easier when a league requires passcards for coaches as well as players) or simply note the name in my book after the pre-game introduction.



    There should be no need for a coach to ask me for my name so this eliminates the uncomfortable post-game query should the coach think that he needs to report something,
     
  15. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not that it would ever happen. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    What I wrote:
    I disagree with you here.
    Sidenote: Of course he was irritated and for the record I was too and have told my assistant that he needs to keep quiet for the last game or he's not going to be back.

    However it is NOT a referee's job to "fight back". When that happens, his/her impartiality is now be questionable. If he wants my assistant coach to shut up, he needs to say "Shut Up" or preferably "That's Enough" or caution him (coaches get carded in my league). Calling a foul and then making a smug comment while looking directly at my assistant, is (IMO) inappropriate.

    I agree with you here.

    Referees should not take be abused and I have dealt with my assistant. When I referee, I don't mind standard criticisms from the bench, but if it goes too far, I deal with the situation. That said, I hope I never do it with sarcastic or smug comments after calling a foul. If I do something that almost begs a comment/action from a player or coach and then I have to take higher action (caution or ejection) that's really bad business.
     
  17. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Referee's are human and also have a right to deal with dissent from the coaching staff. Coaches know the referee is fair game for criticism exactly because he is in the run of play. He does not have the time to come over and explain a decision or deal with minor dissent. I would say to any coach if the referee stops play and makes a point to come over to speak to the coaching staff you have a problem, someone is going to be warned and the next time it happens a coach should be asked to leave the technical area and the field of play. We as humans all handle stress differently, I use to hold my index finger up to my lips or yell out enough to quell the initial rumblings of dissent from the sidelines. Today, in the run of play I will blow my whistle and deal with it immediately. I am not here to be abused and that if it doesn't stop they can watch the game from the comfort of their car in the parking lot. In your own case I am sure your assistant coach was giving it to the referee for an extended length of time. The fact that you noted if he continued his actions he would not return to coach again says it all. There are some individuals that ooze sarcasm from their pores. While I don't approve of the behavior, that is not to say that I have not done similar things in the past with particularly obnoxious coaches and players. I've had some really obnoxious players sent off that keep yelling obscenities as they are leaving the field and they are duly warned that it will be in the report, only to keep acting up. I have on one occasion noted to a particularly difficult player, thanks for your observations and do enjoy your suspension, you clearly need to cool off. Is it right, no, but did the player ask for it for his continued behavior? You be the judge.

    I believe the level of tolerance that you accept from the technical area varies with what is being said. If it's they are pushing my players or what was the call (matter of fact), no real issues. It's when it elevates to shouting, or the ah, come on ref or what was that! Then you should quell that behavior immediately. Also if the players are young I have no qualms about going over to a real loud mouth coach if I see the players being distracted by his constant yelling from the bench and asking them to cool it. Dissent should not be tolerated at youth matches. Keep the leash short. Adults, get more slack.
     
  18. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    No it is not a referee's JOB to 'fight back' but that is not to say the referee should never respond or go on the offensive, as Alberto explained well in his post.

    Generally speaking, what the referee did in your example is not appropriate. But under certain circumstances, if the coach's behavior had been bad enough, it would be acceptable in my opinion for the referee to say something like that. Either that or the coach should be dismissed.

    If I choose to fight fire with fire when dealing with a coach or player, which I consider the informal and potentially less appropriate route, I will give the player or coach more leeway before hitting them with a card. If I go down that road, I am not looking to bait the player or coach; that's not right. But I *am* showing them, 'look, I'm not going to put up with this crap from you.'
     
  19. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007
    Chi-city
    That brings you to a slippery slope doesnt it? When you say thingsl ike that, his dissent will be worse. Then IMO you HAVE TO ALLOW IT. You baited him, now you have to deal with him. Dont say anything like that. Keep your professionalism to a max thereby maximizing your respect on the pitch. With that respect and ability to hold back it will be expected that when he says out of line things, you dismiss him. Talk back to the coach and prepare to fight a war.
     
  20. Lovefutball

    Lovefutball Member

    Dec 4, 2006
    The club you coach for most likely hires the refs, just talk to them and they will take care of it. Their should be a ref coordinator or some associate with the club that contacts all the referres. These seem like fixable situations, just note it to the proper person and you should be fine.
     
  21. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Sometimes, the ref needs to or wants to SAY something to the coach before dismissing him. It is up to the referee to decide WHAT to say and HOW to say it. It isn't always baiting.
     
  22. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007
    Chi-city

    I was just stating that in the context of the above posts. Where you say things such as "now thats a trip".
     
  23. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Right. Next time you might want to quote the stuff you are referring to. My post was right before yours, so I assumed you were directing your comments to my post.
     
  24. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I have in private conversation with the coach said the following....Do me a favor, if you going to argue and yell, at least make sure I was wrong first before you start yelling. That usually gets them thinking...

    R
     
  25. Sakatei

    Sakatei Member

    Jun 24, 2007
    One technique I have seen work well is for the ref to stop the game (hopefully during a restart:)) and call the coach onto the field by him/herself.

    They have a private discussion in which the ref can lay down the law without embarassing anyone or appearing to have lost control. At the same time it is obvious to everyone that the ref is attempting to control an escalating situation and a message has been sent to all.

    And best of all, it also tends to work most of the time. Unlike talking trash so everyone can hear!

    Adult leagues? Just yell. They are trying to get their money's worth. :D
     

Share This Page