How to deal with a referee that is wrong (from coaches/spectator hat)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Wahoo, Oct 22, 2007.

  1. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    Ok, I've been involved with soccer for 33 years as a player, ref, coach, fan.

    I'm back as a referee for my 3rd time after watching too many games where the center didn't seem to care about the job, though most of my time is spent coaching these days. I've read the LOTG, ATR, and local rules and come here for added info - just to make sure of the laws.

    My question - and this comes while wearing a coaching hat...
    How do I handle (or can I) a situation where the center ref tells my team something that is wrong.

    Examples from multiple refs this season.
    1) If there is a foul, and you want 10 yards, you have to ask for it because otherwise the other team is allowed to stand right in front of the ball. (told pregame while checking in)
    2) It can't be charging if it happened with a shoulder. (told during the game. To relate the situation, it was one girls shoulder, the others chest and the recipient got knocked off her feet)
    3) If the goalie is going after the ball, let him have it because if you get there a little late, I'm going to have to card you. (told pregame)

    There are others (sadly) but these give the jist.
    On all situations I said nothing to the center ref, but told my team (who looked confused) to just play by the rules the referee mentioned - except for the shoulder tackle/charge.

    When I'm refereeing, I know how to deal with these.
    When I'm coaching, should I try to talk to them? Should I write these things up in a report? Should I just let it go - knowing they aren't going to learn that way? Thoughts?

    I also had a situation where I was a spectator and thunder started about 2 minutes into the game. I sat there uncomfortable waiting for a coach or official to halt the game- instead they said to watch for lightning. Now the rules here are thunder or lightning... and I knew it but how should/could I have gotten that to an official?

    As it was, during halftime I felt compelled to talk to the official, and asked him to check the rule and he was friendly and agreeable. Should I have done something during the first half?

    Sorry this got long, just wondering what others would do.
    I don't mind referees that make bad calls if they are trying and know the rules. I do mind if referees don't know the rules but I'm not going to do anything public while I'm a coach unless safety is involved.
     
  2. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Read the Thunder and Lightning thread.

    LIGHTNING is definitely a SAFETY issue.

    As far as rules, if you're seeing a lot of "made up" or "in-correct" interpretations, as a coach, I'd suggest having the LOTG handy. I had a coach several weeks ago refer to his LOTG after I allowed a goal directly off a corner kick. This time I was right, and he learned something new. Next time he could be right, and one of your referees could learn something.

    Most of your examples aren't spelled out that explicitly in the LOTG, I might suggest a call or note to the assignor to help clarify their thinking.
     
  3. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Unfortunately, there is a culture in youth soccer where open and honest communication between a spectator or coach and referee is nearly impossible. The level of misinformation and confusion about what constitutes a foul, what is a technical breach, how the game should be restarted and where, etc creates a tension such that neither party in these dicussions is willing to acknowledge the other as a trustworthy source of information. In some cases, this mistrust is not warranted as one or both parties may very well be highly competent. The "you never know" factor is just too great of a barrier to overcome without a high level of initial diplomacy, a skill most do not fully possess.

    As a result, unless the referee is clearly unable to protect the safety of the players, you would be hard pressed to have any kind of meaningful discussion with your referees within the context of the game.

    However, I think if you can objectively document reccuring inaccuracies prevalent during your games and present your findings to the league administrators that you could effect some level of change for the good. The key is to present the information as constructive feedback to address a problem, instead of as an airing of grievances and placing blame. The other key is to act professionally on the sidelines, refraining from yelling and dissenting during the game. Be cordial and polite to the referees, and position yourself as a credible source for information. Then you may have some success in approaching them, in a friendly manner, during or after the game.
     
  4. Sandcrab Margarita

    Apr 22, 2007
    Arizona
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've found that a quiet word with the official after the game with a knowing reference to the Law in question pretty much does the trick.

    Can't comment on the thunder/lightning issue -- it happens so rarely in these parts that I can't think of an instance in years where a ref would have to make such a call.

    Best,
    Sandcrab
     
  5. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    Actually they are all spelled out quite clearly I thought...

    Example 1: Delaying restart of the game
    Laws of the Game: Page 124 for Law 13 - Free Kicks
    If a player decides to take a free kick quickly and an opponent who
    is near the ball deliberately prevents him taking the kick, the referee
    shall caution the player for delaying the restart of play.

    Example 2: Again I don't see how the ref can be correct. His statement was that tackles involving "a" shoulder are legal. This is simply not the case. It can be... but it isn't legal by virtue of one player using a shoulder. Charging is a foul. That's why I mentioned that one of the players was knocked off their feet to show it wasn't incidental contact. A shoulder to shoulder challenge is legal - but that also doesn't allow for excessive force. In this case it was a shoulder charge into a chest.

    Example 3: The referee blew this 2 ways in my opinion.
    Goalkeeper possession is spelled out on Page 40 of the LOTG
    1) He has no right to tell my team how to play - just to obey the rules.
    2) Until that ball is "IN" the keepers possession (and I am fully in support of protecting keepers particularly at a young age so 1 finger in my book counts as possession)... it is a FREE ball. However the referee has now instructed my players not to go after that free ball.

    Finally Example 4: Thunder vs Lightning
    If Lightning is dangerous, so is thunder. You don't get one without the other.
    But if it helps, here is the Inclement Weather policy for Ohio Soccer.
    http://www.osysa.com/GUIDELINESFORLIGHTNINGTORNADOS.pdf
    I'll pull out some of the important lines:
    Lightning often strikes as far as 10 miles away from any rainfall. You are in danger from lightning if you can hear thunder. You are in danger if you can see lightning.

    Soccer fields are a dangerous place to be during a lightning storm. When lightning is seen or thunder is heard, or when dark threatening clouds are observed, quickly suspend the game and/or practice and move to a safe location.

    If thunder is heard, the game should be suspended and the fields cleared. Everyone should immediately go to a safe shelter.


    No offense, but I don't see much if any grey area in these.
    Actually I talked to our referee assignor about the thunder which resulted in an email going out to remind officials that Thunder = Lightning.

    Whether I ref or coach, I keep a copy of the Laws of the Game, Advice to Referees, and the local modifications with me. But I'm never going to try and show up a referee... especially when some of them are extremely unapproachable.

    I had another referee call the keeper for collecting a ball from the other team (I was the AR on the other side), dribbling it into his own penalty area and picking it up with his hands. He called an indirect free kick against the keeper because he claimed that when he was outside the penalty area he wasn't a keeper, but a player so when he went back inside the penalty area he was receiving a pass from his own teammate (who just happened to be himself). This was easy to discuss at halftime and get sorted out. But as a coach, it's not easy to get a chance to talk with some referees.
     
  6. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    This is very true... and pretty much how I've tried to handle it, but the only time I've taken anything to the league was when it was completely black and white - because it's just too easy to say "oh it's just a coach upset with calls".
    As I said, Idon't mind a ref that makes some bad calls - I know it happens all the time - even when I officiate. I have no problems with a referee that knows the rules though his interpretation may differ from mine.

    That said - I did a quick search for shoulder-shoulder tackles in the laws of the game --- it's not spelled out as being legal is it? I know it falls under other topics by not being violent or using arms, but the laws never say "shoulder to shoulder is legal" does it?

    Thanks all, I do apprecite the help... I really want to keep referees happy and doing games - we need them. I would just like to try to help remind some of the laws when they are obviously wrong... just like I hope I take it well when someone points out when I'm wrong.
     
  7. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    I think that there is a big difference between wearing the spectator hat and the coach hat. As a spectator, you really should not be trying to question the referee on rules during the game. If I had a crucial question, I would go to the coach and tell him. Maybe when you are dealing with lightning, that might be the single exception to the rule. I think a coach has some leeway to POLITELY question rules interpretations, especially before the game.

    As for your specific examples -

    It seems unlikely to me that your referee and both coaches could all be in ignorance of the rules for thunder. That is drilled into everyone in the youth game. If your people don't know this rule, your league needs to do some serious remedial training. More likely, they know the rule, but wanted to ignore the thunder (which they perceived to be far away) so they could get the game in. Not right, but I would guess this is not ignorance of the rule, it is ignoring the rule. In that case, I (and hopefully the other parents) would be yelling TO MY COACH "Heh, Joe, I just heard thunder!!!" Hidden message: we all know the rules, so stop the game.

    As far as the statement cited about not running into the goalie when he has possession, it may not be an exactly correct statement of the rules as you described it, but it isn't that far from being right. It may be that this referee has had some problems in your league with gk injuries from players running into the gk. It isn't something I would say, it is overstated, but I wouldn't be highly critical of a referee who said it. He is telling you he will call this particular offense tightly.

    The statement on charging - I would hope that the referee knows the correct rule but is not very articulate.
     
  8. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    This is a difficult discussion, as I have had those multiple hats like Wahoo....I am very concerned for safety of the players, and if a referee ignores the safety issues (the basic thunder v. lightning is a mortal sin), the serious foul play which leads to serious foul play retaliation, the incorrect instructions to the players...I tend to agree with my more senior colleages on this board...the less you say in the pre game chat with the players the better off you will be!!!

    I don't know if I would try to have a quiet word with the referee at the end of the match but do find his assignor and email him your concerns. The league you play in will have a head referee as well. Contact him with your concerns.

    You can also use the protest if the LOTG's are applied incorrectly which then causes you undue harm in the match.

    You will get some folks out there who don't read these boards, who don't referee games in their sleep, who don't know a keeper can dribble the ball back into the area after recieving it from an opponent. It isn't the end of the world, unless it involves safety issues. Safety is our first job.
     
  9. Wahoo

    Wahoo New Member

    Aug 15, 2001
    Seattle, USA
    Haha, funny you mention this, but I had a coach tell me one time... oooh did you hear that Thunder. I said "Yes I did, so we have to clear the field". He then said - wait I think it was a car backfiring.

    I'm sad but not suprised that most coaches dont' know about the Thunder/Lightning rules, but I am suprised that the refs in this case didn't know. As it was, I talked to them at halftime (feeling awkward) and showed them where it was written down. All of them "thought it might be thunder or lightning", but since they werne't sure they decided to play.

    On the other things, I agree with you, but both of them left me shaking my head ... but I just tell my kids to play the game and let the ref call it.
    (Keeping one of my asst coaches quiet is much harder)

    Thank you... I agree with a lot of what you say.
    Matter of fact, other members of this board are why I don't give lengthy pregame talks anymore - and I think thats best.

    I guess I'm more trying to get a feel from the other refs here on this board if you would allow a coach to approach you on a ruling... assuming of course he did it in a polite manner.
     
  10. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007
    Chi-city
    ITs deffinately hard. What is the correct restart for a player failing to give the 10 yards? I call it, caution him, then what kick? IDFK or DFK.
     
  11. ref_vic

    ref_vic New Member

    Aug 17, 2007
    Since the misconduct happened while the ball wasn't in play then the player would be shown the card and the restart would be what ever it was going to be before the misconduct.
     
  12. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Cmon Campton...you know better than that....cmon....say there is a direct kick 19 yards out and the defenders fail to retreat, and you admonish them to back it up, and there is still a hassle, and so you card the nearest one to you...the game hasn't been restarted yet, so just remember the Led Zep record (oh god, you are way too young for this advice) the song remains the same...the restart remains the same as it was before the misconduct. When the ball is out of play it needs to be put back into play in accordance with the reason it went out of play...wow...that was some sentence....once a dfk still a dfk. Say the attacker gave you lip and had to be shown the yellow, it still doesnt change anything....the restart is the restart.
     
  13. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    It is whatever the original restart was.
     
  14. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Yes I do...although more than half the time, the coach has an ulterior motive and the 'friendly' discussion turns sour. Unfortunately for me, I tend to be somewhat argumentative and not as diplomatic as I could be when I am refereeing, so these 'friendly' discussions sometimes turn into shouting matches. Of course, I always win those. :)

    Seriously, though -- yes I do let coaches approach me if they appear civil. In the past few days, I had 1 coach of a U12G team genuinely confused about why his player was called for a foul that resulted in a PK. I explained it post-match, his team had won the game, and he was cool about it. The next game, a U13B, the home team coach from my hometown league (you'd think he would be polite...I could run into him at the grocery store) was not so friendly about an offside call that wasn't given and his team conceded a goal. He was 'politely' badgering the 14 yr old AR after the decision and then started asking me for an explanation as we restarted with the kickoff. He brought it up again postgame, trying to act like he was being friendly and 'educating' us but just trying to show us that we screwed up (I don't think we did).

    Few weeks back, had a college coach approach me at halftime. His team had a goal disallowed on a strange play in which offside was called. I had to conference briefly with AR to get it right. He starts asking about how it could be offside when the defending team had a player on the goal line. I knew he would, so I had my explanation rehearsed. I told him that the GK was 4 yards out of goal, so his player was behind the GK and therefore not enough opponents behind him.

    The involved AR ran into the kid's dad after the game. Apparently, after we chatted with the coach at halftime, the kid fessed up to having touched the ball as it was going into the goal, he knew he was in an offside position, and he just wasn't thinking. Vindication for the officials!

    Funny -- the coach didn't come back post-game and update us with this new information...

    So yes, I will allow the coach to approach me post-game or halftime. If he chooses to be an ass once we start talking, so be it. If the coach is angry while approaching or already making negative remarks before he gets within handshake distance, I will rebuff his efforts and refuse to discuss anything.
     
  15. macheath

    macheath New Member

    Jul 8, 2005
    DC
    I think this is the right position to take. A ref who doesn't know the rules is unlikely to change his views when challenged by a coach, especially during a match. Maybe you can try something at halftime, but that would have limited success, I think, as you are in effect showing him that he's wrong about something. I'd wait until after the match, don't wave the LOTG in his face, but be clear. If he persists in the error, I guess I'd write it up for the league, assignors, or whoever (if anyone) supervises. You might have a quiet, calm parent or assistant coach stand with you when you do this, just so there's another witness in case a later dispute arises.

    I'm happy to talk with coaches, parents, players after a match (or at halftime if necessary, but then be sure you give the same information to both teams). Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it just is the start of an argument or dispute, which I then calmly try to wind down and leave. (These agruments are almost always introduced by "I used to play..." or "I used to referee..." or "I'm a referee...")

    On safety, no compromises. If there's lightning danger, and the ref won't recognize it, take your team off the field and forfeit if necesary. No result is worth a kid getting hit by lightning
     
  16. Nashvillian

    Nashvillian Member

    Jul 1, 2004
    Isn't it obvious?
    A friend of mine has a good response when a coach wants a call explained. He's willing to explain what he saw and the reason for his decision, but not to debate the judgement call. If the discussion drifts to the coach saying that something did or did not happen (as it often does), he says something like, "Now we're debating. I'm happy to explain the call, but I'm not going to debate it."
     
  17. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    You really have to be carefull of approaching a ref before, during or after the game. It would be the dreaded 'I am a ref too' line which we all hate.

    the only things I can see working are:

    1) email/call the assignor or SDI, especially if you have a relationship with them, and fill them in.
    2) approach the ref adn introduce yourself, note if you've been loud during the game this won't work. Introduce yourself as a ref and ask if you can discuss or ask a question or two about the call. If you fail to reach an agreement, just ask him politiely to find a ref/mentor that he trusts and ask that person about it.

    remember, ref or not, you are going to be considered bias.
     
  18. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007
    Chi-city
    I dont see a way to get through to the individual referee on the pitch. I was sent off for a second yellow a few months ago for DROP on an IDFK at the top of our box. They touched it forward, i rushed it and he shot me in the back. I was given a second yellow for the referee saying the ball didnt move "forward". I pleaded with him to chekc the book before giving it to me. He said "dont think so" and sent me off. YOu just have to wait to talk to a higher body to fix the error and make the refereee better.
     
  19. nonya

    nonya Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Years ago, I coached for a middle school aged team for one year. The referee made just a God awful call against my team. My kids were really upset, I was upset but I calmed them down. At the end of the match, I approached the referee and told him good game, and could I have his name please. He got all defensive of course and wanted to know why. I told him honestly that I wanted to talk to his assignor, the referee then got really nervous and defensive. I remained calm as he begin to tell me how correct his call was, and that I didn't know anything about the game and I shouldn't judge him, etc. I politely told him that he was violating the code of ethics in dealing with coaches, he continued to yell at me and told me I had no idea what his ethics as a referee were, etc. At which point I just left him off the hook, I took out my wallet and showed him my state assessor registration card and told him that even though I was not assessing the match, he needed to stop and just give me his name. He turned beet red, muttered his name and slinked away.
     
  20. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    You were really out of line doing that. You were the coach, you have a bias regardless of how objective you think you may be because you have an emotional attachment to these kids (my own experience). You also approached him when you could have said nothing and walked away. Instead you asked questions that made him defensive and forced him to defend his decision and also caused him to loose his composure. Then after clearly baiting him you get sanctimonius and state he violated the code of ethics in speaking to coaches. No offense but you should really examine who was out of line in this instance. You went looking for trouble and when the referee got defensive you got judgmental and told him he was violating the code of ethics and then for the pais de resistance, you pull out your state assessor card. That's really nice. If you were that upset why not protest the game particularly if his decision was wrong with respect to the proper application of the LOTG. Otherwise, if you weer upset about a foul or non foul call or misconduct it's in the opinion of the referee.

    What you did was wrong. You had other options. Your actions on this matter were were less than professional and they were motivated by your sense of outrage that your player(s) were wronged. You also abused your position as an assessor, particularly if you had no jurisdiction in that league.
     
  21. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Boy if some guy approached me, told me I was violating a code of ethics, and then waved some card in my face I might just tell him exactly where he can shove that card...

    Honestly, what were you trying to achieve? If you really wanted to pursue the matter you can easily look the assignor up yourself by calling the league coordinator. The assignor can figure out who the referee was easily enough. There is just no reason for you to approach the referee like you did. You were a coach on that game, not an assessor, so your precious little card means nothing. Talk about violating a code of ethics!
     
  22. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Assessor Code of Ethics

    * Service before self.

    * I will conduct myself honorably at all times and maintain the dignity of my position.

    * I will never knowingly criticize my fellow assessors.

    * I will be courteous and considerate when critiquing officials during the post-game.

    * I will not make statements about any game official except in my official capacity.

    * All my assessments are confidential and are to be shared only in accordance to policy.

    * I will not provide in written feedback anything different from what was told to the official during the post-game session.

    * I will not let personal feelings interfere with my objective evaluation.

    * I will have no conflicts of interest involved in the match, the referees, or the players.



    So who was violating a code of ethics?

    Hmmmm

    ANR
     
  23. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Referee Code of Ethics

    * That I shall always maintain the utmost respect for the game of soccer.

    * That I will conduct myself honorably at all times and maintain the dignity of my position.

    * That I shall always honor a contractual obligation.

    * That I will endeavor to attend local meetings and clinics so as best to know the Laws of the Game and their proper interpretation.

    * That I will always strive to achieve maximum team work with any fellow referees and assistant referees.

    * That I shall be loyal to my fellow referees and assistant referees, and never knowingly promote criticism of them.

    * That I shall be in good physical condition so as to be in the right place at the right time.

    * That I will control the players effectively by being courteous and considerate without sacrificing firmness.

    * That I shall do my utmost to assist my fellow officials to better themselves and their work.

    * That I shall not make any statements about any game except to clarify an interpretation of the Laws of the Game.

    * That I consider it a privilege to be part of the United States Soccer Federation and I will strive to make my actions reflect credit upon that organization and its affiliates.



    And which portion of the code of ethics "deals with coaches..."

    ANR
     
  24. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Perhaps the referee should have asked nonya for HIS name and called the director of assessment :O
     
  25. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Asking a referee for his name doesn't sound that intimidating or unreasonable. I didn't take nonya's request as anything counter the code of ethics. Of course, it sounds like the CR didn't take it that way. I suppose you had to be there.
     

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