How much physical is too much?

Discussion in 'Coach' started by Peter Rival, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Peter Rival

    Peter Rival Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    First, some background for those that might not remember. I'm the assistant / GK coach for a high school team at a small private school. We're competitive but not by any means high club-level soccer. The past two years we've come in a distant second to a team that is very well funded, very well coached, and very physical (on both sides of the line of legal). We're generally lucky to have refs that remain vertical for the whole match and almost never see fouls called, let alone cautions issued (I overheard one of the senior refs say he's only ever given one caution in all the years he's been a ref, and the other said he's never given any).

    After our second loss to this team this year my hyper-competitive first response was, "well I guess I need to teach my kids the art of the not-legal-but-never-called foul too." When I grew up playing it was always all about the win, so we learned a lot of the subtle tricks you see at the higher levels - hip nudges, shirt pulls, strategic fouls, all the fun stuff - so it wouldn't take much to teach them the same. But the more I've thought about it the more I question whether that's the right approach.

    The purist in me says, "that's not how the game is supposed to be played and even though we're a competitive (vs. training) league it's still not the right thing to teach them." The realist in me says, "yeah, but that's how the game is played at the higher levels and it would only be leveling the playing field against a team that does it - and gets away with it - constantly".

    I'm a huge fan of nuance and finding middle ground between seemingly diametrically opposed positions, so I'm stuck here. What do you folks think is the "right" middle ground of physical play at this level? At this point they haven't even been coached on the simple things like starting the wall close to the ball to give your defense time to set up while the ref moves you back let alone the more, ah, dirty aspects.
     
  2. stphnsn

    stphnsn Member+

    Jan 30, 2009
    you're coaching high school kids. they should already know the "dark arts". if they don't know, they need to. and for the most part, you're not training them to play at a higher level, eg college, pros, etc. this is as competitive as it's going to get for most of them so give them the best chance to win.
     
  3. Malabranca

    Malabranca Member

    Oct 6, 2016
    #3 Malabranca, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    Great topic.

    John O'Sullivan, who has been cited on other topics hereabouts previously, wrote two posts on this a few years back that raise many of the issues. They can be found here:

    http://www.soccerwire.com/blog-posts/should-we-teach-gamesmanship-in-youth-soccer/

    http://www.soccerwire.com/blog-posts/part-2-should-we-teach-gamesmanship-in-youth-soccer/

    For me, there is the letter of the law and then there is what is normally done. For soccer "what is normally done" is the standard of play within your competitive level. Often that standard of play may be somewhat opposed to the letter of the law. At the pro level, everyone pushes and grabs. If you don't do these things, you could be accused of not playing the game the right way - or of not giving it your all. Whereas that same behavior is fairly out of bounds on a u6 rec soccer field. It is up to you as the coach to determine what the standard of play is for your level of competition and to make sure that your players are prepared to meet it - or at least be able to deal with it when faced with it. Because soccer has referees (i.e. in-game adjudicators of the rules), what is allowed or not allowed is pretty black and white - what will the ref call? While I can understand the ethical quandary this can put coaches in, the coach is also the one responsible for the level and tone of competition. If the coach wants "clean" games, you can usually find them - or at least make them more likely to occur.
     
  4. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    First off, physical skills and cheating are two different things. You're talking about cheating (holding and pushing) rather than legal physical skills (like charging and bumping).

    You can beat teams that cheat with speed of play. Strike the ball before the opponent gets to you and avoid 50/50 balls. They can't foul you if you are already gone. Off the ball lose the marker with deception.

    Players need to play so that they minimize the strengths of opponents and maximize their strengths. For instance if a player is quicker and fitter, he should exhaust his marker with movement off the ball and make his runs short so that his opponent cannot catch in time.

    If the player is stronger and heavier, use his size and strength to physically intimidate and gain space. If faster, use speed to intimidate and gain space. This is real "physical" play. Even smaller players can use their body physically to gain advantages. Shorter legs are an advantage (quicker feet) as is lower center of gravity (better balance).

    Most times officials are not calling holding and pushing because they see both players doing it. If only the opponent is using his hands, the player is more likely to draw the foul unless he has an advantage.

    While I realize most peoples experience is different than mine, when I played competitively rarely would any one play physically against me. If they did I made sure they only tried it once. I played fair, but I retaliated by playing physically for a few minutes and they backed down. Then I went back to running around them instead of through them. Small guys have to play a certain way, big guys get a choice. Even if your bigger, it is better soccer to play smart like the small guys.
     
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  5. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    #5 nicklaino, Oct 14, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
    Here is an old post when we played the Princeton soccer club 2 games under 14 and under 16. Dennis Mueller ran Princeton club and coached the under 16 team. The point is stop worrying about physical team eventually they will disappear skillful is where it’s at. This was Dennis’s post to us.

    “When the Brooklyn Italians BU-16 played the Princeton Bulldogs BU-16, both teams had good scoring opportunities. The Brooklyn team played a patient possession game that was attractive, but a bit frustrating for the Princeton coach (me) to watch ;.). Both teams had very skilled center midfielders who were evenly matched with an edge in sprint speed going to Brooklyn. I used to think I had the best small CM anywhere around at holding the ball in a crowd, the kid from Brooklyn has made me modify that opinion to one of the best. The keepers both stopped everything they should have and at least a couple they shouldn't. That is all you can ask. The defenders on both sides denied the opponents time and space and forced the attackers to play well, which they did. (He used my real name can’t have that) said it was a nearly foul-free game and it was; not one without the contact you expect from 16-year-old boys. But the contact mostly occurred in clean attempts to win the ball and no late or dangerous challenges. This was the best team we have played in terms of skill and team ball possession. They are not as large, aggressive and physically imposing as some teams we play. I expect as the boys get older and big and aggressive continues to lose its advantage over skill that the Brooklyn Italians will make its mark in national-level competitions. We will play again. Probably after both teams have completed their State Cup play this year. Dennis Mueller: Coach of Boys U-16 Bulldogs, Director of Travel Teams for the Princeton.”

    We won both games they had older players in this game it did not help them. We won the state cup under 16 then we won it again under 19 state cup. Then we put them in the men’s open cup got knocked out to a team with a great team captain. That tells you how important a great team captain can be to a team.
     
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  6. Peter Rival

    Peter Rival Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    In our case I think this year our teams are largely equal in terms of ball skills, but their team is far more aggressive both legally and illegally which knocks down our players' confidence and willingness to challenge for 50/50 balls. That builds on itself since now that they're losing all the 50/50 balls they're losing possession in dangerous areas and you know how that goes.

    I can show them how to play within the rules using leverage and body position, etc., I'm just trying to find just how far that ought to go. Just as an example, our opponent regularly uses stiff arms (i.e. far harder than just hand fighting) when playing for a ball but they're never called for it. Our kids then have to fight around or through the hand that by rule shouldn't be there which makes them a step or two slower to the ball. As I said above, that starts to build on itself throughout the game and the kids lose confidence in their ability to get and keep possession.
     
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  7. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #7 rca2, Oct 15, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
    These are great training opportunities. For possession style play, you don't want to challenge for 50/50 balls because it is not a percentage play. Instead a player should have confidence in the team's ability to press and win the ball back.

    Unlike pointy football and ice hockey, we don't win possession of a soccer ball by knocking down our opponent. A 50/50 ball is a mythical unicorn. Either there is time and space to win the ball cleanly or there isn't. The difference is tiny and it varies from player to player, but each player needs to judge his own limits. Like a keeper coming off his line, players should not be second guessed about their decisions. When players see the unicorn, they should be immediately be thinking 1st and 2nd defender roles. Many balls are won back quickly because the team isolates the attacker in a 2v1 and wins possession.

    If your team is superior at 1st and 2nd defender roles they will love 50/50 balls. The team becomes a pack of sharks or wolves hunting for the ball. So as a coaching objective, don't try to motivate players to focus on winning 50/50 balls through 1st attacker play. Instead work on winning the ball back by isolating the opponent and tackling or more likely forcing a bad pass trying to avoid a tackle. If here is no second team mate to help, then the exercise becomes 1v1 defending with the objective to force the attacker to dribble or pass back up the field and away from your goal.

    If you think about the movements that the opponent is making when the opponent initially "wins" that 50/50 ball, you will realize that the opponent will be pushing higher and moving in the wrong direction when you win the ball back. Hope this perspective helps.
     

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