How many games can a team play in a season?

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by youngorst, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. youngorst

    youngorst Member

    Jun 26, 2014
    Bend, Oregon
    I have read a few articles about MLS players not getting as many opportunities to play as players in other countries and am curious to know how US soccer compares.

    Including all competitions and friendlies what is the max number of games that a team can play in a season?

    I counted 58 possible games (6 friendlies, 34 MLS, 6 MLS Cup, 6 US Open Cup 6 CCL). Looking at league structure is there room for more games or is that about the limit?

    How many do top teams around the world play?

    FYI, I came up with the 6 friendlies simply by looking at how many Seattle played this year, no clue if that is the norm or not).
     
    henryo repped this.
  2. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not counting friendly games.

    Min.

    34+1 = 35.

    Max. USA 34+6+6+10 CCL finals = 56 (I guess we could add FIFA CWC but since no MLS team has made it, why do it)

    Max Canada 34+6+4+10 = 54
     
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  3. 4four4

    4four4 Member+

    Nov 13, 2013
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    I wonder what team has played the most games in MLS history.
     
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  4. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    #4 henryo, Aug 12, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
    Should be L.A. or D.C., the Charter Clubs with the most appearances in playoffs and continental tournaments all-time... ;)
     
  5. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No games count from before Seattle invented MLS.
     
  6. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    The Houston Dynamo played 50 official games in 2008:

    Pan-Pacific Championship - 2
    CONCACAF Champions Cup - 4
    MLS regular season - 30
    MLS Playoffs - 2
    Super Liga - 5
    U.S. Open Cup - 1
    CONCACAF Champions League - 6

    I don't know if that is still the most or not.
     
    henryo repped this.
  7. youngorst

    youngorst Member

    Jun 26, 2014
    Bend, Oregon
    Uh what?

    That was not my point at all. I just used them as an example because I know them. This was an honest question, with expansion and talk of how to create a schedule out of a larger league I was curious. Does MLS have wiggle room to add more games to its schedule?
     
  8. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    That was a joke.
     
  9. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    It depends on how many mid-week games you want to play and how much flex scheduling you want to do.

    In 2015 there are 34 weekends between March 7 and October 23.
    4 of those weekends are FIFA breaks. So that's 30 left if you shut down for all of them. Since we'll have 21 teams the most league games you can have are 28.5 weekend games per team.

    There are 33 Wednesdays. You lose at least 4 of those to FIFA breaks and 5 or 6 to the Open Cup (if you leave those open for everyone). There are also the Spring and Fall CCL dates. There are a maximum of 12 of those but obviously those don't affect everyone. Worst case you have 11 open Wednesdays. Again with 29 teams, that's 10.5 games per team.

    So you could have a 39 game MLS schedule. That would mean playing through the Gold Cup. If you shut down for the group stage of that, as was done for the World Cup, that eliminates a few more game dates.
     
  10. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That ignores time for friendlies against European clubs.

    For next year if there are 11 teams in the Eastern Conference and 10 teams in the Western Conference, the Red Bulls could play a 34 game schedule like this:

    20 games: 2 against each Eastern opponent
    10 games: 1 against each Western opponents
    4 games: A third game against four opponents, which for the Red Bulls could be NYCFC, Philadelphia, New England, and D.C. if done by geography. Of course some clubs have more nearby rivals than others.
     
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  11. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Big European clubs may play over 60 games in a season, but they have much deeper rosters; they tend to have 15-18 players who each start a majority of the games and over 30 players getting playing time.
     
  12. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Most teams play 1 of those. There are still plenty of open Wednesdays to fit that in plus the bye weeks for individual teams.

    All I was doing was trying to give the maximum number of league games based on the calendar. Which seemed to be what the poster was asking. My personal opinion is that the league will increase or decrease the number of games played based on criteria other than how many teams are in the league.
     
  13. aletheist

    aletheist Member+

    Nov 17, 2010
    Olathe, Kansas, USA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My sense is that MLS owners are happy with the 34-game regular season and will keep it that way for the foreseeable future. Fewer games would reduce revenue, while more games would increase schedule congestion and/or require playing in colder weather.
     
  14. youngorst

    youngorst Member

    Jun 26, 2014
    Bend, Oregon
    Yes, that was my question and thank you for answering.

    I was really thinking about non-MLS competitions that could be added. I think 34 MLS games plus playoffs (6 games max for 40 total) is about right but I was thinking about US Open Cup (possibly some teams entering a round earlier with more than 16 US based teams), CCL (maybe expanding long term), and any other competitions that could be added in the future (I still think Superliga was a better idea than the CCL and think MLS should enter a team in the international champions cup every year). So I was just curious about rather they could find the room if they wanted to add some more games.
     
  15. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When you really think about it, it's not the MLS starters who lack playing time. MLS has no fewer games than other leagues, and MLS starters play as many games as starters in all the major European leagues. What's lacking is opportunities for second-string players to get playing time. European clubs generally have reserve teams playing full season schedules, whereas the MLS reserve league is only a handful of games. Also, Europe may have a few more games in secondary competitions where top-division clubs tend to use a lot of reserves. Although we have the playoffs here, which are comparable to a second cup competition, the difference is that MLS playoff games always involve full-strength teams and don't give reserves a lot of minutes.
     
  16. fridge46

    fridge46 Member

    Oct 23, 2011
    #16 fridge46, Dec 3, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
    Apologies for bring up a slightly old thread, and for being a little off topic, but comparing total number of matches MLS teams play to other countries:

    Colombian side Atlético Nacional have just played their 83 match of the season. After tonight, they have a to play at least another 3, and potentially another 2. That could be 88 matches they have played this season!!

    This is how it breaks down:

    Super Cup: 2 (Lost on penatlies)
    Apertura: 24 (18 regular season + 6 playoffs; WON)
    Copa Libertadores: 10 (6 group + 4 playoffs; KO'd in QF. +4 if they reached the final and +2 if played in Prelim Round)
    Copa Colombia: 14 (10 group + 4 playoffs; KO'd in QF. +4 if they reached the final)
    Clausura: 22 [+2] (18 regular season + 4 playoffs; ON GOING: have 2 more playoff matches, plus potentially 2 more)
    Copa Sudamericana: 11 [+1] (6 rounds; ON GOING: currently playing 1st leg of final)

    TOTAL: 83 [+3, potentially 5 = 86 / 88]

    Including matches they could have played if they hadnt been KO'd early: 98*
    * Could be 101 if they played the Recopa Sudamericana (2 legs) and Suruga Bank Championship!

    First match: 22-JAN. Last: ?; 20-DEC if they play all matches (break from 21-MAY to 29-JUN)

    At times, they have had to play on consecutive days. Looking at wiki, their squad is 32 strong. Even so, their accomplishments this seasons have been fantastic: to win a half-championship and still be in contention for the other; going deep into all 3 cup competitions, they can still win one!!
     
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  17. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's 48 league games. Does any country have more per year or season? England has leagues with 46 game seasons. A League One or League Two club that reached the final of the FA Cup (and played replays every round until the Semifinals when replays are impossible), Capital One Cup, and Johnstone's Paint Trophy could play 28 cup games. That would be 74 league and cup games combined. Obviously those clubs would have very little chance at being in a UEFA competition.
     
  18. fridge46

    fridge46 Member

    Oct 23, 2011
    I get 79 possible domestic matches:

    46 League
    3 Play offs
    14 FA Cup (R1, R1R, R2, R2R, R3, R3R, R4, R4R, R5, R5R, R6, R6R, SF, F)
    8 League Cup (R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, SF.1, SF.2, F)
    7 League Trophy (AR1, AR2, AQF, ASF, AF.1, AF.2, F)
    1 Community Shield (assuming they won the FA Cup the year before, but if we count that, we would have to then add potential EL matches, which would be 15 matches)

    This assumes that said team finished between 3-6(4-7 for League Two) and doesnt receive a first round bye in the League Trophy.
     
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  19. Zxcv

    Zxcv Member+

    Feb 22, 2012
    #19 Zxcv, Dec 4, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
    There are two major factors when looking at seasonal scheduling for major leagues and clubs.

    1. The actual number of maximum games that can be played during the season;

    2. The size of the squad, and the amount of games an individual player is likely to get.

    Let's look at Bayern Munich's quadruple winning 2012-13 season as an example. The German quadruple consists of the Super Cup, the Bundesliga, the DFB Pokal (cup), and the Champions League. The Super Cup is a one off season opener/exhibition but nonetheless I've included it.

    FRIENDLIES: Bayern started out by playing 11 friendlies in preseason. In the Bundesliga winter break (during January), they played another 10 friendlies, giving a total friendly figure of 21 for the season.

    BUNDESLIGA: Bayern played 34 games in the Bundesliga, which included a month long mid season break. That break however was filled with mid season friendlies as you can see above. Nonetheless the players generally get a rest during the mid season break, so this is a significant point of difference between Germany and, say, England.

    CHAMPIONS LEAGUE: Bayern won the Champions League, playing a total of 13 games.

    DFB POKAL: Bayern won the cup, playing a total of 6 games.

    GERMAN SUPERCUP: Bayern won the season opening exhibition, playing a total of, well, one game.

    All in all, Bayern played:

    - 54 competitive fixtures in 2012-13.
    - 21 friendly fixutres
    - Combined total was 75 games.

    The number of competitive games is a fairly below average 54 games, especially when compared to what a team in Spain or England could potentially clock in with a similarly successful season.

    Below I'll break down the minutes played by every player during the season, and I'll divide that number by 90 to give you a rough estimate of the total amount of "full games" they played. This is more insightful than just giving the number of appearances they made. Note that this is only for competitive games, excluding the 21 friendly fixtures Bayern played. Also a number of players who play in those friendlies never saw competitive minutes, because as we know friendlies are a good time to play young, inexperienced youths. Still, it's the competitive games that we're mostly interested in anyway.


    [DELETED: I realized some players were missing with what data I had available. Will update when I find all the data]


    Germany is actually a best case example of how things can work successfully with a comparatively low number of games. By contrast, an equivalent season in Spain or England would look very different. The winter break is obviously advantageous for the big German clubs, allowing them to recalibrate as they head into the all important second phase of the season. I'm sure it had some part to play in Germany's World Cup win too.

    In fact, despite Germany clearly having been a dominant player in world soccer for some time, their recent record in World Cups reads:

    2002: Finalist/Loser
    2006: Semi finalist
    2010: Semi finalist
    2014: Finalist/Winner

    How much does the break, and the fewer amount of games their players play during the season, help? It's difficult to say. There are many things that need to come together to win World Cups, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the comparatively fewer number of games they play (on top of the winter break) is one of the factors for their success, though by no means the most important one.
     
  20. Zxcv

    Zxcv Member+

    Feb 22, 2012
    Damn the 30 minute editing cut off. I'll have to repost the previous post with updated info.

    There are two major factors when looking at seasonal scheduling for major leagues and clubs.

    1. The actual number of maximum games that can be played during the season;

    2. The size of the squad, and the amount of games an individual player is likely to get.

    Let's look at Bayern Munich's quadruple winning 2012-13 season as an example. The German quadruple consists of the Super Cup, the Bundesliga, the DFB Pokal (cup), and the Champions League. The Super Cup is a one off season opener/exhibition but nonetheless I've included it.

    FRIENDLIES: Bayern started out by playing 11 friendlies in preseason. In the Bundesliga winter break (during January), they played another 10 friendlies, giving a total friendly figure of 21 for the season.

    BUNDESLIGA: Bayern played 34 games in the Bundesliga, which included a month long mid season break. That break however was filled with mid season friendlies as you can see above. Nonetheless the players generally get a rest during the mid season break, so this is a significant point of difference between Germany and, say, England.

    CHAMPIONS LEAGUE: Bayern won the Champions League, playing a total of 13 games.

    DFB POKAL: Bayern won the cup, playing a total of 6 games.

    GERMAN SUPERCUP: Bayern won the season opening exhibition, playing a total of, well, one game.

    All in all, Bayern played:

    - 54 competitive fixtures in 2012-13.
    - 21 friendly fixutres
    - Combined total was 75 games.

    The number of competitive games is a fairly below average 54 games, especially when compared to what a team in Spain or England could potentially clock in with a similarly successful season.

    Below I'll break down the minutes played by every player during the season, and I'll divide that number by 90 to give you a rough estimate of the total amount of "full games" they played. This is more insightful than just giving the number of appearances they made. Note that this is only for competitive games, excluding the 21 friendly fixtures Bayern played. Also a number of players who play in those friendlies never saw competitive minutes, because as we know friendlies are a good time to play young, inexperienced youths. Still, it's the competitive games that we're mostly interested in anyway.


    One more point: Bayern had 25 players who played in a competitive game during 2012-13.

    Goalkeepers
    Manuel Neuer: 4,500 = 50 games
    Tom Starke: 360 = 4 games


    Defenders
    Phillip Lahm: 4,109 = 45.6 games
    Dante: 3,996 = 44.4 games
    Jerome Boateng: 3,340 = 37.1 games
    David Alaba: 2,835 = 31.5 games
    Daniel Van Buyten: 1,910 = 21.2 games
    Holger Badstuber:1,440 = 16 games
    Rafinha: 764 = 8.4 games
    Diego Contento: 647 = 7.1 games


    Midfielders
    Bastian Schweinsteiger: 3,672 = 40.8 games
    Franck Ribery: 3,232 = 35.9 games
    Javi Martinez: 3,071 = 34.1 games
    Toni Kroos: 2,857 = 31.7 games
    Arjen Robben: 2,212 = 24.5 games
    Luiz Gustavo: 2,041 = 22.6 games
    Xherdan Shaqiri: 1,897 = 21 games
    Anatoliy Tymoshchuk: 882 = 9.8 games
    Emre Can: 464 = 5.1 games
    Pierre Hojbjerg: 19 minutes
    M Wieser: 12 minutes


    Forwards
    Thomas Muller: 3,570 = 39.6 games
    Mario Madzukic: 2,860 = 31.7 games
    Mario Gomez: 1,209 = 13.4 games
    Claudio Pizarro: 1,092 = 12.1 games

    Some take aways:

    - 11 players played more than 30 games worth of competitive minutes
    - 7 players played more than 35 games worth of competitive minutes
    - 4 players played more than 40 games worth of competitive minutes
    - 16 players played more than 20 games worth of minutes; this left 9 players that played fewer than 20 games worth of minutes.

    Germany is actually a best case example of how things can work successfully with a comparatively low number of games. By contrast, an equivalent season in Spain or England would look very different. The winter break is obviously advantageous for the big German clubs, allowing them to recalibrate as they head into the all important second phase of the season. I'm sure it had some part to play in Germany's World Cup win too.

    In fact, despite Germany clearly having been a dominant player in world soccer for some time, their recent record in World Cups reads:

    2002: Finalist/Loser
    2006: Semi finalist
    2010: Semi finalist
    2014: Finalist/Winner

    How much does the break, and the fewer amount of games their players play during the season, help? It's difficult to say. There are many things that need to come together to win World Cups, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the comparatively fewer number of games they play (on top of the winter break) is one of the factors for their success, though by no means the most important one.
     
    xtomx repped this.
  21. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's the 74 games I thought of plus the Playoffs (3), League Trophy (1 because I didn't know the AF had 2 legs), and Community Shield.
     
  22. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    Years ago I remember reading an article about Roberto Carlos, and they mention that in either a calendar year or season, I can't remember which, he played something like 95 games. I've since tried to figure it out and have come to something close, but I haven't ever been able (or willing) to fully validate that number.
     

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