How is Ronaldo ranked in the Brazilian Hall of Best Players Ever?

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by MIGkiller, Jul 4, 2004.

  1. MIGkiller

    MIGkiller Member+

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    May 9, 2003
    Rio de Janeiro
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The thread title is self-explanatory. Vote and discuss.
     
  2. DerMongerer

    DerMongerer Member

    Jun 5, 2004
    Ummm, I'd have to place Pele, obviously. Garrincha before him, helped lead Brazil to a WC in 1962 when Pele got injured. Also Zico as well. Although Zico didn't win a WC (no thanks to those cheating Albicelestes in 1978), he led the most beautiful of WC Brazilian sides in 1982. Many of my Brazilian friends fortunate to see both the 1970 and 1982 side, still like the 82 side instead. Many of my Brazilian friends here in Toronto still rave about Zico. How about Romario? My carioca friends here differ between the 2. One likes Romario because of his artistry with the ball, very deceptive, Brazil's most lethal in the penalty-box striker ever. My other friend likes Ronaldo instead because Romario wouldn't backtrack to collect the ball like Ronaldo does (Arg WC Qualifier this year), and could run at defences from further distances than Romario could. So in my mind 1. Pele 2. Garrincha 3. Zico 4. Ronaldo 5. Romario.
     
    JGGott repped this.
  3. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I'll put Ronaldo top 10 and I think he could get into the top 5 by the end of his career.

    Of course, in terms of trophies and accomplishments he may well be in the top 5 already, nevermind if he gets those 3 goals in 2006 to make it to first on the all-time WC goals list.

    Let's see... Pele, Didi, Garrincha, Zico, Leônidas, Ronaldo would all have to be in that top 10, not necessarily in that order, with guys like Rivelino, Zizinho, Falcão, Romário, Nílton Santos, Domigos da Guia and a few others as strong candidates to fill that out too.
     
  4. dbdb

    dbdb New Member

    Dec 7, 2003
    São Paulo
    Top 20. There were many better players. Pelé, Garrincha, Leônidas, Gérson, Ademir Da Guia, Nilton Santos, Zico, Sócrates, Reinaldo, Falcão, Luís Pereira...I don't remember more now but Ronaldo probably is 18th-20th.
     
  5. DutchCane

    DutchCane Member+

    Apr 6, 2004
    New York, New York
    Wow, that's an amazing list. My Mother who's from Suriname and a fervent Selecao fan always complains whenever we watch Futbol how the quality of play has gone down. Today she was lamenting the lack of beautiful play. She specifically mentioned Gerson, and Garrincha. I wish there was a Classic Futbol Channel here in the US where I could watch old matches.
     
  6. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    I would place Roaldo in the top five. He would be the second best after Pele for me. I feel that the pre-WC 1998 Ronaldo was the closest anybody has come to Pele. Ronaldo's exploits during that time will always influence my decisions. However, the way he came back from injury and won the World Cup, Spanish league etc. with surgerized knees reflects his incredible ability, grit and determination. Moreover, he is the most successful Brazilian since Pele.

    My top five Brazilian players of all time are:
    1) Pele
    2) Ronaldo
    3) Garrincha
    4) Romario (because he won the World Cup for Brazil after 24 years, scored 900 goals and is still playing!)
    5) Zico (because he never won the World Cup but scored more than 800 goals anyway)

    However, this is highly contentious as there are too many to choose from including Didi, Vava, Zagallo, Ademir, Rivelino, Leonidas, Julinho, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos, Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson, Socrates, Falcao, Eder, Dirceu, Nelinho, Careca, Bebeto, Dunga, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, C A Torres...the list is endless.
     
  7. Camisa5

    Camisa5 New Member

    Mar 28, 2004
    If only Ronaldo could HEAD the bola
     
  8. dbdb

    dbdb New Member

    Dec 7, 2003
    São Paulo
    Ronaldo was just top class in 96-97.
    Nowadays soccer is a lot more physical and tactical than technical. Many players nowadays have a great physical preparation but aren't very good technically. When I say very good, I mean really very good.
     
  9. BoMBa CLoT

    BoMBa CLoT New Member

    Jul 1, 2004
    So Ronaldo was just top class in 96-97?

    ok then, name one striker that has showed such consistency as Ronaldo (even after the injury - never went below the 23 goal mark in any league). Name one striker that can create his own chances as much as Ronaldo. Name one player in the world today that has won as much accolades as Ronaldo.

    the problem with many naive football watchers is.. when it comes to Ronaldo, they always compare him with the pre-injury Ronaldo, which is sad. He should be compared to all the other strikers around him right now, and no one even comes close. He is hands down the best out there.

    As for comparing him to his former self, well he is not doing those surging runs from midfield anymore (but name one other player that does).. he is doing those runs from the middle of the opponents half instead and is still as deadly and efficient.

    the point is, WAKE UP, he is not the Barca Roanldo, but he is still better than anyone else. Compare him to other players for God's sake.

    I would rank him second after Pele for what he's achieved and for being one of the most exciting players I ever saw. It's weird, whenever Ronaldo recieves the ball u get that feeling.. the feeling that he's gonna do something amazing and trust me, u don't get that feeling with many players.
     
  10. 0-Point

    0-Point Member

    Jun 5, 2004
    Quantum flux
    I couldn't agree with you more BombA, if anything Ronaldo is BETTER than before he's poaching like Romario now hence the consistent strike rate, and his technique is 2nd to none. :cool:
     
  11. dbdb

    dbdb New Member

    Dec 7, 2003
    São Paulo
    I can name not just a striker, because the poll is not about a striker, but some of the brazilian's best players of all time. And I did in my post. Some people who don't know too much about soccer get inprisoned in the present reality and can't analise some others

    Don't say what you don't know. I won't answer to anything like that...

    You're joking, right? Or maybe you haven't seen many of brazilian's best players ever. Please stop saying striker, the way you narrow your margin, because the poll meant the best ones of ALL TIME.

    Better than anyone else?!? Compare him with other players?!? Yes, I do...and I am sure many players, as I said names, played better than him. Have you seen any of those playing??? What the hell, stop sucking for Ronaldo...that's a pain in the ass!
    He was top class in 96-97. But many of those great players have already had a time in which they played best, too. But I'm analising a whole career.

    This is absurd!

    That's up to you...I don't have feelings, I believe and analise what I see...maybe that's why you think Ronaldo is a "god"...
    Tell the last amazing thing you have seen. (you probably have had many, many feelings, though...) I don't remember anything recently...

    People have a tendency to support the present things. By many reasons. Some don't have knowledge to have an opinion rather than biased in the present. Some are influenced by the fact of only being able to watch the players of today, and the superexposition counts in favor of the players of today. (Ex.: You can think Ronaldo is very good, or better than other player, but you just see what he does, not what the others did...a little biased...good sense...). And there are the feelings, like admiration, which counts in favour of the players of the present (the ones that you always see them play).
     
  12. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    The last amazing thing from Ronaldo, if you've already forgotten (and somehow you seem to remember the amazing deeds from players from the distant past) was the single-handed domination of Argentina in the 2006WCQs.


    The way to objectively compare players from the past and present is to base the analysis on documented evidence of successes achieved. Simple statistical analysis will tell you that Ronaldo is behind only to Pele.
     
  13. BoMBa CLoT

    BoMBa CLoT New Member

    Jul 1, 2004
    Ok, it seems ur such a sensitive guy. U said he was 'JUST' top class in 96-97 which is ridiculous! In my opinion he is top class right now too, it would be stupid to consider him just a good player when he still scores all those goals. I think even the worst of Ronaldo haters should admit that he is one of the best out there.


    Yeah Pele would have ripped up the Calcio if he was playing in these time... he might but it's still speculation. So this comes down to opinions, so respect mine and stop whining. I still think Ronaldo comes second on that list.

    .

    A whole career?? Ur analysis sucks man lol. U think that Ronaldo was only top class in 96-97 lol. I wonder how Ronaldo still performs at the highest level, hmm interesting indeed. Maybe it's luck. All those ppl u named, IMO did'nt play better than Ronaldo, except for Pele. And By the way, The 96-97 Ronaldo was not 'top class', he was the best player I ever saw! I'm not being biased, but did u ever see a player dominate teams single-handedly like that? Scoring goals at will from anywhere on the pitch?


    Get a new pair of spectacles

    Wow a psychologist, u know me too well. I know I have posted one post... but still, u exposed me for the fraud I am lol. Ur too funny man!

    Look it's obvious u hate him, cause ur points are pathetic. lol@just top class in 96-97.. what's wrong with u?
     
  14. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    I find this REALLY FUNNY! "Ronaldo was just top class in 1996-97".

    HaaaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    Sorry, I had to laugh out loud. So, what class is Ronaldo in right now?
     
  15. dbdb

    dbdb New Member

    Dec 7, 2003
    São Paulo
    Can someone argue like a normal person? You're inventing that I remebered deeds from others. Read my message again, please.
    So you think he did too much against Argentina suffering those PKs?

    If you say statistics tell who's better that's a new reason for me to think your opinion is poor. That's for who hasn't enough knowledge to judge and critical opinion. I bet you and the other guy who keeps saying doesn't know even a little about who the other players were. So, how could you say if you don't have how to have an opinion? You can't argue, that's the point. So this discussion get ridiculous. I say there were other great players, but as you don't have arguments to say or compare, keep saying Ronaldo was better again and again.

    Top class comparing with the others brazilian great players, he isn't. But in 96-97 he played soccer to be in top 5.
    Tell me what are "those goals" that you refer. Something special?
    Ronaldo is top 20, isn't it one of the best out there?

    Keep your opinion. Np. Hey, who's been whining until now was you. But I just think your "database" is too small to keep saying Ronaldo was just after Pele the best of all time. Who are you comparing Ronaldo with? Are you comparing?

    Yeah, he was just top class in 96-97. And I don't hate him and there's nothing wrong with me. I think you don't have the dimension of what means saying Ronaldo was the brazilian second best player of all time. You don't know how many players are involved and how good they were. You see Ronaldo playing today and you say: "He plays very well... Ok! He's just behind Pelé as the brazilian best player of all time!"

    Nice! Because you remind me what other guy was saying and I forgot to tell.
    This a problem of text understanding. When I say Ronaldo was just top class in 96-97, I mean his soccer could just be put in the hall of the brazilian's best of all time (top 5) in that period. I don't say today, and the matter of the poll is best of all time. Nowadays, of course he is top class. I think you shouldn't have laughed, friend...
    I don't have anything against Ronaldo, but some people confuse some things and them come speaking too much...
     
  16. moose8008

    moose8008 New Member

    Jul 6, 2004
    I am a big Ronaldo fan but I understand what this guy is saying. From 1996 to 1998 Ronaldo was an incredible specimen. His combination of skill, speed and strength was unmatched. He was truly one of the special talents I have ever seen. Unfortunately, the injuries came and he has not been the same player since. He simply doesn't have the same explosiveness. The Argentina game was a blast from the past. That is not the way he usually plays these days. To his credit, he has adapted his game and became more of a traditional center forward. He still has the sick sense around that box that only the greats have and is deadly finisher. He has probably surpassed Romario and will go down as the best forward of his generation .

    But calling Ronaldo the second greatest player in the history of Brasil is a stretch. The best soccer player I ever saw is Rivellino. I know I will never win this battle because he didn't have the same impact on the sport but I defy anyone to watch tapes of Rivellino in his prime and Pele or Maradona in their primes and tell me he is not every bit as good. I also have many Flamengo fans who believe Zico is the greatest ever. Tostao also belongs in the discussion. Pele and Garrincha have to be considered the top two. There are also many players I am leaving out. I would say Ronaldo probably ranks in the 10-15 range with a possibilty of moving into the top 10 by the time his career is over.
     
  17. dbdb

    dbdb New Member

    Dec 7, 2003
    São Paulo
    Rivellino was very good, too. In the 70 World Cup when he gets the ball and starts dribbling everyone who gets in his way was great! His technique was the most interesting, because it was different. The way he passed his foot through the ball while dribbling was really interesting. I think he probably was pioneer in that style. His effect shoot was also very nice. As I said some posts below to someone, many players in their prime were very good, as you said now about Rivellino.
    How could I forget Tostão...he was the soccer intelligence itself...
    But one I really admire is Gérson. His ability to pass long balls was absurd! It looked like a 3-point basketball shoot, for how precise it was. He was able to put the ball in the head of other player in a 40-yard pass. His nick name in Brazil was also "top-scorer maker", because he managed to create some top-scorers with his impressive assistance ratio. Once Pelé said one of the players who most contributed to brazilian WC title in 70 was Gérson. He was "the guy" who put Ademir Da Guia and Rivellino on the bench. Rivellino started to play just when he agreed not to play in his natural position (Middle-left), which was occupied by Gérson. There's a very nice video of that goal Pele scores in which he receives a very long ball, puts in the chest and scores. Gérson did that assistance. It looks very beatiful, specially seeing the opponent effort on reaching the ball with his head and not being able to do it. Great assistance. One more in Gérson's collection.
     
  18. Dinhostyle

    Dinhostyle New Member

    Jul 9, 2004
    Yeah. The Gerson ball to Pele against Czech in 1970 was grt. So was his ball to Pele in the WC final vs. Italy. But, if Gerson kept Rivelino out of the team, how can Rivelino be considered one of the top 5 Brazilians or as good as Pele. I like Rivelino as well. BTW the guy who posted previous to yours is probably talking of Clodoaldo's dribbling and not Rivelinos. For assists, the crown has to go to Tostao, I think. Zico was also great. But if you consider the impact on the game, the success achieved, the worldwide fame etc. Ronaldo tops them all. He has been voted FIFA player of the year. Even his videos suggest that no one other than Pele combined so much power and acceleration with inimitable ball control. His only weakness is heading. But he has scored goals from headers as well. He has scored from freekicks too. He is an all rounder, unlike Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson etc. who were specialist in some aspect of the game. This can also be said of Garrincha, who did not have as much power and acceleration to bulldoze defences like Ronaldo. On seeing the films of each of these players, such can be deciphered. These qualities and the success achieved make Ronaldo the second best player after Pele, in my view. But then Brazil has produced so many great players that anyone else can have other opinions with their justification.
     
  19. dbdb

    dbdb New Member

    Dec 7, 2003
    São Paulo
    I think nowadays, after his injuries, Ronaldo became much more a "scorer" than a really complete striker. A very good scorer, indeed, but in this point there were better than him, like Romário and Reinaldo. The Ronaldo of nowadays doesn't show that supreme technique we were glad to see in the 96-97 period. Nowadays Ronaldo just does his part as a good striker, but is not that very good dribbler anymore. Sometimes he shows up, but it's in a few games. So, in this part you mentioned the technical matter, I think Ronaldo should be behind Gérson, Tostão, Rivellino and some others. Because they technically were better than he is nowadays. As I said, nowadays Ronaldo is a top scorer (very good, indeed), but not that fantastical player anymore.
    Considering the impact, fame, etc, I agree with you that Ronaldo should be put second of all time. But I prefer no to be influenced by these tendencies and analise just their soccer. It would be unfair, too, with many players who couldn't shine more because of Pelé, who was the top icon of his epoch and center of all attentions.
    What you said about Rivellino being considered top 5, I have some doubts. The matter isn't that a wouldn't rank him there, but that I think that after Pelé, Leônidas and Garrincha, the others are very close to each other, so it's difficult to put anyone ahead of the other. I prefer to let a gap of positions in the rank and say it's occupied by those players.
     
  20. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Hey buddy, I did not mean to laugh at you. I found the post funny because I thought you meant Ronaldo in 96-97 was a top class footballer in the world (which means there were other similar top class players like him in the world) and now he is not top class. You were not very clear as to what you really meant. However, you clarified that in subsequent posts.

    :)
     
  21. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think you just misunderstood him. "was just top class in 96-97" is not the same as "top class just in 96-97". The first one is a big compliment.
     
  22. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Ronaldo used side to side movements using his knees as the fulcrum. That resulted in his devastating display. After his knee surgery he cannot do that anymore. He tried to do that the first time he came back after surgery and had to leave the field after just 6 minutes. Then he returned after another surgery almost two years later. Do you see that he does not bend his knees much and tries to put as little pressure on them as possible? Now he tries to compensate his sideways movement with step-overs. Yet he scores more goals than anyone else and wins accolades.

    BTW I agree that Romario is the ultimate goal poacher in the history of football.
     
  23. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Yeah, I agree. He probably meant that Ronaldo was simply 'top class' in 96-97.
     
  24. DerMongerer

    DerMongerer Member

    Jun 5, 2004
    I watched the Bra/Arg match, reminiscent of his Barca days. And many say he hasn't had a match like that in a long time. Does anyone here think, it's simply because of his injury woes? Or is it because of his will?
     
  25. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    He plays far more cautiously and conservatively because of his injuries. However, his true colors come out in front of difficult challenges. When the stakes are high and he feels he needs to prove himself, we get stellar performances from him. How else can one explain the contrast in performances in the back to back WCQ against Argentina and Chile. And the performances in WC final, against ManU, Juventus, Barcelona, 2003 last Spanish league game that Real needed to win etc. He graces the greatest of stages. His relative quietness in lesser games may be due to lack of motivation and wariness to risk injuries.
     

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