Yes and even though his end product necessitates that he is ranked alongside the all time strikers it is shocking stats like this that make me hesitant to place him in that top bracket Suarez as of yet hasn’t had a CL campaign like Henry 2005/06 which wasn’t exactly legendary but world class nonetheless The greatness of Suarez is wholly down to what he has achieved as a league player There are of course exaggerated claims about his NT career He has been solid for Uruguay no doubt a fighter and more often than not their talisman over the past 5-6 years I just don’t think it has been great enough for one to consider him a legend of the international scene He is a league legend and probably the best league striker of the 21st century( alongside Thierry Henry) Borderline top 60-70 sounds about right
I would argue against, Suarez had one great season in the PL, one pretty good. Henry was in my view clearly the best PL player from a four year period 02-06 and at one point only I would say Ronaldinho was equal or higher, Suarez I do not think hit those levels, or for that length of time.
What I think is irrelevant here because everyone seems to think 13/14 was better than any season of Henry Add that to 15/16 which was definitely better than any season of Henry and then..... Suarez was in the running for the PFA award in 12/13 till his racist outburst At Patrice evra He was also in the second half of 14/15 one of the top 3 players in Europe(in the first half of 14/15 he was a disaster though) So even excluding 12/13 he was at that Henry level or slightly above in 2.5 seasons compared to 4 by Henry(btw what was so legendary about 2004/05 Henry it needs some further looking into I think) At NT level Suarez>Henry At CL Henry>Suarez At league level Henry>Suarez But only a slight advantage IMO It must be said that Suarezs Barcelona stats at La Liga level are absolutely staggering His ratio is one of the highest ever behind only Messi,CR,Puskás,Telmo Zarra and Zarra played some of his career in the pre war era Whilst the other 3 are recognised as perhaps 3 of the greatest 4 forwards in history(the other being Pele) Obviously the other’s played many more games and consistency is whole different thing(which is why Suarez is definitely not at that level) Still i think he has done enough for there to be a legitimate conversation about whether he can be mentioned alongside Thierry Henry
Suarez was very good for us in the 2015 and 2016 CL campaigns. Since 2016 until present his general form, not just in CL, has declined drastically. It's been more evident in the CL where he faces tougher defences but even in the league he has declined a fair bit and his finishing which was always his strong suit has been very suspect at times. Thankfully though he's in a bit of a hot streak right now and has looked markedly better the last few games. Really hoping it translates to the CL.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to knock Suarez and I a very big fan and have said before his 13/14 club season was a strong as any that year, I just personally do not feel he was ever at the level of Henry in the years I mentioned before, his best season at Barca was fantastic I admit but in Messi and Neymar he did one hell of a support act ! Also not everyone would agree on this forum that the 13/14 season was better than Henry 03/04 which yielded a PL title, an unbeaten season and the highest number of assists in PL season plus top scorer. At one point for 2-3 years I feel Ronaldinho and Henry were clearly the two best players in the world, I have never felt like that about Suarez despite certain very strong seasons, agree he has played in the Messi & Ronaldo era so a tough duo to crack.
I think you answered your own doubts with your last paragraph The perception of Suarez is affected by playing in the Messi/ronaldo era In this era Henry/figo/Rivaldo/Ronaldinho/Zidane would also have 0 ballon dors I’m only confident that R9 at his best could challenge seriously and perhaps only in 2007-2010. 2011-2015 is impossible for anyone not named Pelé ,maradona(1986),Cruyff (1972) and really that’s it I consider suarezs achievment in 15/16 of wrestling the pichichi away from ronaldo/Messi as great as anything Henry showed in his career if not greater Also Henry’s record of assists was in 02/03 and he was not top scorer ( that was RVN) As a two year consecutive peak it is possible Henry is ahead (2002-2004) As a 1 year peak than Suarez is ahead(2016) It’s a close call
One of the things that made Henry special at the time was not just the fact that was the league's top-scorer, but how dominant he was at times. In 03/04, he outscored Shearer, who was the 2nd top scorer by 8 goals (30 to 22). In 05/06, he outscored RVN by 6 goals (27 to 21). In 04/05, he outscored Andy Johnson, the 2nd top goal scorer, by 4 goals. It's a respectable gap, but not super impressive, at least not compared to 03/04 or 05/06. Except, Henry actually didn't score any penalty goal that season! So 04/05 was in fact his highest non-penalty scoring season. Compared that to Andy Johnson who scored 11 of his 21 goals from the spot. More than half his league goals were penalties! So Henry literally scored 150% more non-penalty goals than the 2nd top scorer. True. What makes 02/03 special was the fact that Henry was competing for the top-scorer award, while setting the EPL assist record in the same season. In fact, that's what made him a special talent. He was a creative force who was outscoring the strikers who didn't do much but score. Let's not forget that 8 of RVN's 25 goals were penalties, while only 3 of Henry's 24 goals were. It would be easy to argue that Henry's peak was 01-06. He was already a world-class player in the 01-02 season. In fact, he was already nominated for PFA PotY in 00-01 season as well (although, not a favourite, so probably shouldn't count), and would go on to be nominated for 6 years straight (a record). His consistency was crazy considering that he was one goal away from winning the top scorer award 5 seasons in a roll. You'd have to go back to Jimmy Greaves to find someone who was that consistent (Lineker should've been, if he stayed in England). I feel like he was so good in the UCL knockout round of 14-15 that his peak should be at least 1.5 seasons. I don't remember too clearly anymore how well he did in 16/17, but I do remember him being quite clutch in the Copa Del Rey, which Barcelona won. I also remember him scoring important goals against Madrid and Sevilla, but since I didn't watch all of Barcelona games, I don't remember if he was wasteful or off-form or partly to blame at all for Barcelona not winning the league.
To be fair half of those penalties were directly drawn by RvN himself and in two or three others he played a big part (by passing the ball deep to Solskjaer who then collected a foul or handball). Henry had also more support in the way Arsenal played as a team and that he wasn't the lone forward/striker. RvN was the first to say Henry was the better player overall. RvN said this at the end of the 2002-03 season: "To play in partnership with Thierry Henry would be amazing. If we were a duo it would be fantastic. With his pace and vision, his scoring ability and his ability to let others play well, it would be fantastic to play with him. Thierry is a player who is much more involved [than me] all over the pitch." https://www.theguardian.com/football/2003/may/12/newsstory.sport13 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/3585635.stm However, RvN was three times UCL topscorer (and twice top assister in CL without taking the set pieces) and case can be made he was a more steady scorer for the national team as well (irrespective of opponent level or stage scored in). If the level and stage increased, the difference between a striker and a forward became filtered out (similar to CR7 vs LM10 their scoring?). Maybe he was 'involved' in different ways. (doing some of the un-glamorous stuff). Nistelrooy has said on domestic tv that Henry was one of the few players he played with or against that felt like the best player on the planet. 'Voetbal International' had two weeks ago a nice article and dissection on Suarez (where they 'forecasted' he will start scoring again soon... which he did). Maybe I'll post tomorrow or later this week.
Yep, agree re 15/16, had Suarez not injured himself in the Copa Del Rey, and had a decent Copa America and Portugal not fluked the Euros Suarez, despite his popularity had an outside chance of Ballon d'or.
Anyone who writes off Suarez now does not know Suarez Luis Suárez has been under attack in recent weeks. The doubts in the Spanish press about the Uruguayan goal getter in Camp Nou have been so great in recent weeks that Barça manager Ernesto Valverde had to defend his center striker . VI took a closer look at the game of Suárez to see if the problems are structural. Suárez will want to forget February soon. The Uruguayan only made one hit this month. More than 540 minutes the Barça goal getter was now dry, when he visited the 2-4 at stoppage time in Sevilla this weekend. For a number of Spanish media, Suárez's form dip was the sign to speculate about its shelf life. Of Barcelona, nothing less than the final win in Champions League is expected, and with a striker that has been out of shape too often in recent years, it will not work out, is the sound more and more heard. Now there are a number of logical arguments to argue that the best has been done by Suárez. The Urguayaan became 32 years old a month ago. He is working on his fourteenth professional season. In all likelihood this year - with a maximum of fifty games played per season - he will pass through the border of seven hundred official matches. Given Suárez's unscrupulous style of playing, it would be no more than logical that the moment comes when the best thing drops off from Barça's center forward. On the other hand, we are talking about Luis Suárez, an attacker who has surprised friend and foe many times. In short, is this the time to write off Suárez? THE NUMBERS In January 2011 Suárez, with his transfer from Ajax to Liverpool, made the step to a top competition. If we look at the attack figures in the top competitions and the European final tournaments since the start of Suárez's first full-time season at Liverpool (2011/12), it is clear how consistently effective and durable he is. Absolute number of goals and assists since mid-2011 (big five leagues + European) Player Goals Assists Total Lionel Messi 354 122 476 Cristiano Ronaldo 357 102 459 Luis Suárez 212 93 305 Robert Lewandowski 238 51 289 Edinson Cavani 226 34 260 Of all 'mortals' - those who are not called Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo - in the top football, Suárez is the player who was most often involved during the last eight seasons in goals as the finisher or as the second last man. Compared to the other attackers with which Messi has played together, Suárez also stands out. He proved to be the ideal man for the heavy legacy of the center forward position at Barça. Attack partner Lionel Messi at Barcelona (at least 50 matches, all competitions) Player Games Playing minutes per goal or assist Pedro 321 149 Luis Suárez 231 76 Samuel Eto'o 199 96 Neymar 186 85 Bojan Krkic 163 118 Alexis Sánchez 141 106 Thierry Henry 121 113 David Villa 119 111 Eidur Gudjohnsen 114 186 Cristian Tello 86 112 Philippe Coutinho 57 129 Munir El Haddadi 56 129 Ousmane Dembélé 53 103 Paco Alcácer 50 99 A look at the somewhat deeper statistics clearly shows the other role played by Suárez at Barcelona compared to his time at Ajax and Liverpool. Less dribbling, less involved in the passing and a smaller amount of shots. With the best player in the world, standing alongside him in the forefront for each of these three categories, this is not entirely surprising. Statistics per 90 minutes of Luis Suárez by club (competition + European) Club Dribble attempts Chances created Passes attempted Shots Ajax 8 - 2,5 - 44 - 6 Liverpool 7,4 - 2,6 - 38 - 5,2 Barcelona 3 - 1,7 - 29 - 3,6 But in Camp Nou Suárez, despite a much more specific role, does have his most productive years. His goalscoring average at Barça is even better than in his years against weaker opposition at Ajax. Effectiveness Luis Suárez by club (all competitions) Club Game minutes per goal Ajax 120 Liverpool 138 Barcelona 118 In the past two years Suárez has started to score a little less on the conveyor belt. In terms of shots he has remained at the same average. The completion is simply a little less convincing in the past two seasons. Shooting average Luis Suárez per Barça season (competition + European) Season Play minutes per goal Shots per 90 minutes 2018/19 159 3.8 2017/18 146 3.7 2016/17 115 3.5 2015/16 83 3.8 2014/15 131 3.4 LUXURY WORK HORSE But Suarez, even in Barcelona, has never been the type of top striker to be counted only on his goal totals. The Uruguayan is still working his tail off for the team's interest. [...] ------------- To be continued. Rest of the article shows some example as well and fits it all nice together.
I totally forgot about Copa America in 2016. Did Uruguay play well enough that he might have been able to win the tournament? I don't remember it being held in too high regards though, unfortunately.
LUXURY WORK HORSE But Suarez, even in Barcelona, has never been the type of top striker to be counted only on his goal totals. The Uruguayan is still working his tail off for the team's interest. He is also defensively important for Barça under the leadership of Valverde. When Barcelona starts to put pressure on the opponent's build-up, Suárez is the conductor of the first pressing line. When he moves through towards a backward or sideward pass, that is the sign for the rest of the team to move up and push. A familiar image: Suárez leads the Barça vanguard when it comes to pressure. Under the leadership of Ernesto Valverde, there is some more defensive security built into the team. If the opponent plays through the first wave of pressure, Barça usually falls back into a relatively low 4-4-2 block. Lyon plays past the pressure of Barça. The Catalan team then drops back into the relatively long withdrawn 4-4-2 positions. Suárez also has defensive responsibilities with this backtracking. When a outnumbering situation threatens to happen in the midfield, the center striker provides assistance by dropping back and chase the opponent's controller. Preventing tiredness at Messi is crucial to Barça's success. Suárez 'running work is one of the main reasons that the little Argentinian can stay on the field week after week, and his threat isn't blunted. Due to the harassment of his attack partner, Messi can take his moments of rest very often during the possession by the opponent. This season, Valverde increasingly opts for a 4-3-3 formation in defensive terms. Here Messi moves to the central forward position, and defends Suárez as a right winger. Against Sevilla, Barcelona scores the 2-3 from a turnover. Suárez finds Sergi Roberto in the depth on the flank. Via Carles Aleña the ball ends at the centrally positioned Messi, which makes his third of the day. MASTER OF THE DEPTH In attacking too, Suárez's value for the current Barcelona lies in the running that he performs. Where most good strikers have mastered one or two direct walking patterns, Suárez controls every running move by the booklet. We take through briefly his four favorite walks to achieve opportunities for themselves or teammates: (1) The timed sprint to the second post. With Sergi Roberto and (especially) Jordi Alba, Barça's plays with two backs who like to hit the back line to give a low cross from there. Suarez's patience and explosiveness in the moments prior to this kind of opportunity are of the outside category. At the moment that Alba thunders on the left, Suárez seeks a free run-path to get free at the second post. (2) The diagonal depth sprint behind the center defender. With passers like Messi, Ivan Rakitic and Philippe Coutinho around him, Suárez prefers to be in danger in this way. If the center defender Suárez follows into the depth, then temporarily the central zone is released where you do not want to see Messi on the ball. If the last line of the opponent is kept or is even stepped out, it is hoped that Suárez, a striker who relies on his timing, is offside. (3) The 'up-and-under'. In the first Clásico of this season, Suárez played his best game of the year. With three goals and a complete zipper of smart runs, he drove Real Madrid's central duo to despair, and led a Messi-less Barcelona to a 5-1 win. In this match, Suárez made full use of the aggression of Real-captain Sergio Ramos, by always playing with the well-or-not sagging towards the midfield. In the situation below, a quick change of Barça from a goal kick, Suárez takes the entire attack a body posture as if he wants to bounce, before he jumps out of the back at the first glance Ramos throws in the direction of the flank, and ticks the 3-1 home. (4) The depth print on speed. Suárez is pretty fast for a 32-year-old attacker. This is noticeable at times when opponents with a highly positioned last line lose the ball possession to Barcelona. A straight forward sprint from Suárez is still difficult to keep up with by the average La Liga defender. The role played by the Suárez depths in the game of Barcelona still makes him as good as irreplaceable for the Catalans today. Because there are plenty of strikers in top-class football that currently score as much as Suárez, just as there are enough strikers who can make themselves extremely useful without a ball. But there are not really strikers who possess both the productivity as well as the working ethos and the intuitive game intelligence of Suarez. DESIGN POINT 2.0 The interaction with partner in crime Messi is another important reason not to write off Suárez after a month and a half lesser form. The speed and precision with which Suarez and Messi find each other in crowded places on the field is still one of Barça's most reliable weapons. Suárez is more than perfectly aware of the fact that a Messi receiving the ball with his face to the enemy goal is a nightmare for the defense of the opponent. Messi and Suárez find each other on the edge of a crowded penalty area. The Uruguayan bounces, the Argentinian shoots from the dribble. The 4-0 against PSV in the Champions League is the best example from this season of the almost telepathic interaction between the two Barça strikers. Suárez finds an advanced Messi between three PSV players. Both in and out of possession Suárez does the things Messi is least comfortable with: making meters when chasing and hunting, looking for the depth when the ball is at a teammate. But of course, despite his occasional ruggedness and sloppiness the Uruguayan also has an above-average technical capacity for a striker. This aspect of his play sometimes gets snowed under - next to the brilliance of Messi even the quality of Suárez pales every now and then. VERDICT This is not the first period of long-term goal drying for Suárez at Barcelona. In each of his previous four seasons in Camp Nou, the center striker had one lesser series. Last season, Suárez scored only 5 goals in his first 17 games, after which he scored 26 hits in his last 34 matches in 2017/18 - in October 2017 he was dry for 470 minutes. Also in April 2017 and September 2015, there were periods of more than four hundred minutes during which he did not score for Barça. In 2014, it took seven league matches until he scored for Barcelona in La Liga for the first time. In short, a form dip like now is nothing new for Suárez. For the time being, the Uruguayan has then convincingly answered each period of drought. Expected Goals plus Expected Assists per 90 minutes Luis Suarez in La Liga (source: Understat) Season xG per 90 minutes xA per 90 minutes Total 2018/19 0,84 0,16 1 2017/18 0,79 0,35 1,14 2016/17 0,75 0,35 1,1 2015/16 1,02 0,38 1,4 2014/15 0,6 0,56 1,16 The amount and quality of the opportunities that Suárez manages to get this season suggests that the goals will come back again. In terms of Expected Goals he even gets slightly better chances per game than in previous seasons. Getting hold of opportunities is a more repeatable quality than finishing opportunities, as it has turned out. Combine this analytical wisdom with Suarez's history of repackaging itself after form dips, and the concerns and doubts about the Uruguayan striker seem rather premature. Our thanks to InStat for help and images Data via Opta Sports https://www.vi.nl/pro/analyse/wie-suarez-nu-afschrijft-kent-suarez-niet
The fact that he does not need a team to be world class or built around him to perform at an elite level is truly astonishing. What Suarez pulled off at Liverpool in his final season was out of this world, and I do not believe Messi or Ronaldo would be able to replicate that level of performance for a team as poor as that Liverpool side. When it comes to ranking, for this generation of forwards, at the very least he is third to Ronaldo and Messi.
Not to mention he's had an international career which I would argue has been superior to Messi and Ronaldo's. Suarez scoring 2 goals vs England while half fit back in 2014, is one football's underrated moment in my opinion.
Ive heard this a lot from different people and every time I do I chuckle. R9 at Barcelona played for a team that conceded only 3 less goals than Liverpool 13/14 and scored only 1 more R9’s season from a individual perspective was demonstrably superior Against big teams Against mid table teams Again small teams there isn’t a shadow of a doubt that Messi And cronaldo especially in his dribbling prime couldn’t score the same if not considerably more. Look at what ronaldo did his debut Real Madrid season and tell me how many of his goals were dependent on team edge Tell me this Madrid team 09/10 was objectively much better Liverpool 13/14 remember Madrid being “naturally” better than Liverpool isn’t an argument Especially when your best teammates are benzema who was below par Guti was old and past it Kaka was past it and only showed good form sporadically Etc Ronaldo carried Real Madrid in the literalist sense through the 09/10 champions league groupstages Ronaldo completely and utterly dismantled the french champions Marseille and was the best player on the pitch in their R16 exit against Lyon Suarez did not even play in the champions league Suarez did not even score against a top 4 side His selling point is he did not take penalties (And he missed 5 games) Firstly Suarez isn’t s reliable stop kick taker as Gerrard You cannot blame ronaldo or Messi for holding a monopoly over penalties because they are trusted to do so (and rightly so) Suárez is a great forward with many admirable(and distasteful) footballing qualities He is no ronaldo or Messi He isn’t remotely close never has and never will be At his best he is a rung below just because there is no evidence of Messi ronaldo doing what Suarez “did” doesn’t mean they would not do it if presented with similarly disadvantageous circumstances They are demonstrably more talented,effective,consistent and don’t shy away from big matches that swing the pendulum in favour of their team against title contenders
http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com/2013/01/Annual-Best-Player.html Luis Suárez: 2 gold, 2 bronze Ronaldo: 2 gold Romário: 1 gold
Overal. Probably the worst performance i've seen in world cup by a world class player. Absolutely miserable. Cavani had better world cup, by some margin. I know you didn't say it, but let's analyse that thought because it is interesting that you say he one of few that was good for club and country. Did Suarez have better international career than Messi (or Ronaldo)? Absolute or relative terms..
i am not saying he is bad. but iv've seen few times now something like, he is one of the few that perform good for club and country. What does that mean? based on what? Who doesn't? How does he compare to others?
pull up the big club names and i bet he ranks highly compared to country. he gets it done for Uruguay