What do you think about this amazing talent? He got everything for me, to be one of 10 best players ever. I prefer him over Neymar already. Mbappe look more mature in his game, Neymar hold too much the ball and lose that too many times.
At the moment he could become anything. He already looks like an elite level player and has arguably already achieved the highest level of a player of his age in decades. Having said that, we don't know if he'll maintain this level, develop or regress.
Though he has much freedom like Neymar, I think that it is such a waste to play him as a "winger". But the front-3 is the tendency in the top European clubs and PSG has not the players to play in another system right now. If they score always more than their opponent there will be no tactical debate but in my opinion it would be better for them, if they want to win the CL, to have either a Neymar-Mbappé pairing (excellent connection between the two) or a Mbappé-Cavani one on the model Falcao-Mbappé of Monaco (the Uruguayan is so precious until now, offensively and for his commitment) plus one midfielder. But Verratti = 4-3-3 : he is less good and reliable as one of the two CM's in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, in my view, because he can't bring as much offensively and do errors defensively like much fouls (in brief, is less at his ease). As for Neymar, we'll see if he really can bring a plus when it comes to the biggest matches that is for PSG or Brazil. If yes PSG should continue in 4-3-3 and just buy a replacement for Motta. If not they should re-think the whole stuff (in my opinion still, maybe I'm wrong to see things like that and simply, they do what they want after all). We can think that the midfielders would be better in that 4-3-3 with Guardiola as the coach too though Emery is not all that bad as it was said some weeks ago. Anyway there's a probleme of motivation in this team. They don't play the League games at 100% and when the CL big rendez-vous arrive they're unable to raise up their level of commitment. Until now at least, it's the case and personaly I can't see an evolution regarding this : the group stage was "too easy"... Bayern, them, they raise their level after the group stage generally... and they beat PSG in day match #6. Thiago Silva is injured right now again too... Back to Mbappe, as @comme said, he is already one of the best in the world, and now, for the following of his career, it has just to do with avoiding injuries, keeping his head cool (as he does until now, it seems, in his speech in any case, which by the way is...refreshing... though a bit more controlled since he's at Paris...until now... one day, he will have an accident of communication as he like to speak much, it's bound to happen), but he has nothing to improve in his game technically, tactically or even "mentally" with all what we can put into this. It is often said that he has some margin to develop but it is imo just BS mainly said by PSG (and sometimes repeated by some journalists and thus some football fans) in order to protect him. It's by seeing what he does in the big matches, if he wins them with his teams that we'll say if he has "progressed" or if he has not : some would say that he has "progressed" in the case he wins the matches but it has just to do with the events not the player who, I think, he's not impressed by anything (Monaco was one good step below Juve in the CL and it's not Mbappé fault who did what he could, Juve was strong, Monaco was a surprise at this stage of the competition, was a bit lucky to be here, and way too much attentist this time contrarily to their usual playing style). No, he has already everything and if he continues like that, I don't know if he'll be Ronaldo, Cristiano, Henry, Pelé or R9 at his peak level but he should be one of the best players in the world for years assuringly. But a last time I'd prefer to see him in a front-2 or at the centre in a line of 3 men. That is what worries me the most, this question about how he'll be used, about his position in attack. Not having him in a more central position (even if it is to turn around another striker I mean) looks too much like a waste and I hope it will not last too long like that for him or he could regress actually, I fear it (he even played RW in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 with France recently but this extreme case should not be often repeated, that was in a certain context... the context of his first caps in NT and in the context of the World Cup qualifiers). That's just my opinion and maybe I see things in a too pessimistic maneer but still, I hope that he will have the same chance than Henry used to have at one point, i.e having a Wenger to decide of making him his main striker. It's not necessary to wait too long. Main striker or second striker in a front 2... but not that odd job of RW. If he plays RW all his career long, @Scanderbeg, he'll never be a top 10 all-time, I can say it already.
Looking like he's a top 10-15 player already. I would say R9 level. But what would be exactly Nazario's level?
However, even Mbappe has conceded that matching Messi may be impossible. He netted 33 goals in 29 Ligue 1 matches last season and it still was not enough to deny the Argentine a third consecutive European Golden Shoe. "There were days when I scored three goals and then he would score four," the winger told France Football. "I remember that I spoke to Ousmane Dembele (of Barcelona and France) and said: 'It's not possible! Does he do it on purpose?'" https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/mes...d-football-rivalry/1a0ehv52j3er01dggwut7e92re Mbappe 18/19 a legendary scoring season scored 33 goals+9 assists in 24 ligue 1 starts Just fontaine in the 1956/57 season scored 34 goals in 26 appearances(no available stats on minutes etc) Just fontaine was at this stage a mature player in the form of his life and would go onto to score 13 goals in 1 world cup edition a season later I just checked his pes database card and it seems the have very comparable skillets http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=321 Mbappe is perhaps more of a creator although this could go either way Of course way more athletically gifted but otherwise they are similar (particularly in the technique and dribbling department) Mbappe is starting out where just fontaine arguably peaked so there is no telling how high his ceiling actually is In a new look galacticos project under the care and assistance of zidane he could easily (I think )become a 25-30 league goals per season player with close to a dozen assists
Mbappe whoscored rating as starter this year as a team: 8.30 PSG whoscored rating as a team: 7.11 1.19 difference. Cristiano Ronaldo whoscored rating as a starter in 2009/2010 (his best season): 8.57 (his peak average at Madrid was more like 8.4 - 8.45 in his tree first season Real Madrid whoscored rating as a team in 09/10: 7.27 Ronaldo 1.3 difference vs Mbappe 1.19 difference. Real Madrid as a team in Spain was more dominant than PSG as a team in France. Mbappe would peak between 2021/2 and 2025/6 imo, so he is 1-1.5 year to start his peak. I would say he would reach Cristiano Ronaldo's peak level or even surpass it since he is probably as direct (probably more) than Cristiano was. But Real Madrid need other young players because Bale is done, Modric is done, Marcelo is finished, Benzema is past 30, Kroos is 30) and Madrid is focusing more on the defense. Well, but let's see if Mbappe can achieve more things. I think he would score right now 25-27 league goals with this Real Madrid in La Liga and 32-35 with Barcelona. He doesn't take PK but he can surpass this number if he scores some 6-10 PK. As a focal point in Mourinho's 11/12 Real Madrid or Guardiola's Barcelona he would score at peak Messi's level imo.
Rinse and repeat Messi and Ronaldo are a product of this era Recycled and regurgitated Mbappe would Have to score at least 40 goals for the next 15 years to match Ronaldo in scoring Match peak? According to a whoscored graph When mbappe can win 4 consecutive ballon dors at 25 years old like Messi When mbappe can reach 6 seperate champions league finals with 60 KO goals like Cristiano We will return to this For now mbappe is an established world class star playing in the worst of the best leagues in Europe To his credit he Scored in a world cup final at 19 years old and at 21 has more champions league goals than R9 had in his career Recognise greatness when you see it tropiero because you will never see a player who scored 100 official goals in 365 days like Messi from 2012 to 2013 You will never see a European player with the combined longevity,titles,individual accolades,talent and iconic moments of Cristiano ronaldo That player never existed When you discuss GOAT material that is what is the core of the discussion Advanced analytics are just added flavour Supporting evidence if you like You can attempt to rewrite football history Or 'shed light' But the facts are facts whether you like them or not Messi and Ronaldo in that order are the most dominant players in the television era You can revisit this thread in 15 years and no one will dispute this
Pelé is the most dominant player of all eras, period. Messi is the top player of this era, others like Neymar and Cristiano Ronaldo are a level below (even tho Cristiano surpass all in terms of trophies perhaps), but yes Cristiano is a level below Messi, this is pacified among soccer experts (players, coaches, journalists, etc.) Now, these two (Messi and Cristiano) are fruits of this new era of advanced scout, training and excessive money. They are fruits of this new superteams era, that is a core and fundamental part of why they are so consistent and the rest of the super players of the past are not. Problem for you is that new players are born in this type of the environment and will be better than them in all points, in an era that will be even more concentrated. Guys like Mbappe and Sancho are breaking records. To start with I can talk of how far ahead is Mbappe from Cristiano Ronaldo with the same age (21). Mbappe is not at his peak and is still around Cristiano's peak (2008-2012) level! Mbappe with 23-28 in a superteam in unbalanced league like was La Liga in the 2009-2013 would score at Messi's level and probably more than Cristiano. Real data to see: Mbappe 18/19 scored 1.23 non-PK Goals per 90 in the French League. Neymar at his peak 17/18 scored 0.75. Neymar playing from Barcelona in 2014/2015 scored 0.74. That's the level of Mbappe. You can argue that Neymar is more than only goals... OK. But Neymar is like Messi in terms of being complete (playmaking, ball-carrying, passing). Cristiano Ronaldo is the best comparison to Mbappe and Cristiano Ronaldo only scored more than 1 non-penalty goal per 90 minutes in La Liga one time (2014/15). Real Madrid 14/15 was probably a higher scoring team than PSG in france anyway.
The straight up comparison between Fontaine in 1956 and Mbappe in 2019 was one of the stupiest thing I even read here, btw. They should apply IQ tests on the forum and do a case study here.
It (durability and consistency) has absolutely nothing to do with the fact they are both consumate professionals completely dedicated to the sport? Nothing to do with talent ? Mental resilience (any graphs for this)? Every single top player of this era had access to the same training facilities and were beneficiaries of the same huge influx of money into the game None got close to replicating their stats over a 10 year period Not at league level Not at champions league level All these you refer to from the past Rivaldo,Brazilian Ronaldo,Zidane,Maradona,ronaldinho,Romario etc Reached the top Was a clear step or at least half a step above their peers You know the difference ? Romario was asking permission of Cruyff/Barcelona board to leave or sometimes leaving mid way throughout 1994/95 with no permission to go party/play beach volley in Brazil He was still in party mode after the WC Ronaldo was doing the same in 1998/99 Unfocused a pattern that will only worsen later in his career (No doubt injuries too played their part) Zidane is another topic and I have my doubts he was even in that equation (objectively clear number one across then length of a season) Rivaldo I don't know what happened to that guy after 1999/00 Leadleader had some theories to do with his genetics Maradona was already experimenting with recreational drugs at Barcelona in his early 20s No way were these guys dedicated to their craft as Messi/Ronaldo That is the fundamental difference Mentality not opportunity This Mbappe is already at Ronaldos peak level stuff is next level delusions If there was a graph for measuring stupidity like there is for xG than you really would be performing far above expectations
This was tongue in cheek But it turns out there is https://www.businessinsider.com/ney...-pressure-cristiano-ronaldo-thrives-on-2019-2 https://www.scisports.com/choke-or-...-abilities-to-perform-under-mental-pressure/# Nobody cares about performances in ligue 1 again djion with absolutely nothing on the line Brazil 19 won a copa America and Neymar wasn't even in the reserves PSG 17/18 won ligue 1 with like 110 goals and Neymar played only 20 league matches Barcelona won league titles the season before Neymar arrived and the season he left And they are still failing in Champions league semifinals The exact same stage they did during the 2 seasons before Neymar left No difference Whatever added dimension he offers on the pitch it really isn't reflected in his team performing above expectations He never once took his team to the next level Mbappe is building something amazing though The beginnings/foundation of a all timer IMO I have my reservations he will reach the absolute top due to some technical deficiencies but that is something else Can he be all time? The best of his generation probably Facts are every single generation produced 1-2 players who are recognised now as top 20 all timer Other generations arguably had more than others but there was always one from each If mbappe is primed to be the best of his it is nonsensical to suggest he won't make his mark amongst this select group Neymar missed the train in 2018 Injuries curtailed arguably his prime season and histrionics at the WC caused irreparable damage to his image He can build something in his career though maybe a top 50 all time with 400-500 goals+300 assists History will say( in small print) however that 200+ were not scored in the strongest of leagues(politically correct version) Honestly Brazilian league and ligue 1 are universally regarded to be lower tier Mental patients disagree but then they also say many other things too A champions league as a protagonist is fundamental to Neymar breaking into this group Graphs/heatmaps/ligue 1 titles ? Nobody gives a damn if they don't go hand in hand with continental domination
Even if Mbappe will reach Messi's scoring level , he wouldn't be near Leo's passing, dribbling, vision and creativity. It's impossible Mbappe relase on power and speed. Maybe he hit peak now or peak will be short
Mbappe best comparison is Cristiano not Messi. All of them Mbappe, Cristiano and Messi are mostly athletic machines. Mbappe and Cristiano close each other while Messi is different, low center of gravity, more change of directions etc. Messi body resemble more of Maradona's body but still more athletic (HgH playing the part?) I rate Mbappe a bit better than Messi at the same age and Messi only hit his form in 2010-2011 with fully completed 23 years old. Mbappe is 1.5 years to reach it and can improve in all areas. Messi improved his creativity, passing, vision, off-ball movement and shooting a lot between 2006 and 2010. 19 to 23 years old and he still at his peak output now. Overall Messi and Cristiano were free of injuries and always played in the best teams. Let's see if Mbappe manage to be free of injuries as well.
It's hard to imagine better player than Messi. Greater in term of team titles maybe. But individualy he is the GOAT
Messi 2009/10 was already better than Ronaldo nazario 1996/97 in every conceivable way Even better than pseudo playmaker version R9 97/98 Better that is in every single conceivable way R9 ran with the ball at his feet alot Performed futsal skills at high speed Was proficient at finishing (at a world class standard) In playmaking,creating chances for his teammates,passes(vision and inter play) Close control dribbling vs teams who actually know how to defend He was nowhere near Messi 2010 Forget about Messi 2011 Get off your Brazilian cloud R9 at his iconic best completed just 5 dribbles vs Lazio https://statsbomb.com/2020/04/class...peak-inter-against-lazio-1998-uefa-cup-final/ This is an above average team Not juventus Not real Madrid Not Manchester United Lazio with a 26 year old before prime Pavel nedved A 22 year old before prime nesta A 34 year old post prime Roberto Mancini Ronaldo dribbling past nesta 1998 is about as iconic as Diego maradona dribbling past a 19 year old Paulo maldini Nice for the highlight reel but doesn't stand up to scrutiny Against real defenders in their prime the likes of Lillian Thuram R9 was a ghost Was a ghost in most el classicos for real Madrid Research R9s 1996-98 domestic record against top 6 club teams Post your findings It will be embarrassing A 19 year old Messi destroyed 2 ballon dor podium players Roberto Carlos and fabio cannavaro in 1 single move A Hattrick against real Madrid in 2007 4 goals against arsenal in 2010 The leaping header over van der sar in the 2009 CL final 3 matches alone outweigh all of R9s big club games in 17 years
Messi 2009/2010 is better than any of Mbappe's,let alone 2010/2011. Messi is injured quite many times while Cronaldo is usually healthy. Mbappe should move to a better league. Ligue 1 is just small for him
Kylian Mbappe away vs Barcelona 20/21 3 open goals 10 completed dribbles More than the combined dribbles of the entire Barcelona squad(9) 4 key passes 31 passes(83.9% accuracy) 65 touches https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...eague-2020-2021-Barcelona-Paris-Saint-Germain Completely Slaughtered Nobody can say where kylian Mbappe will be in 5( or even 1) years time But if we are talking about right here and now Mbappe just delivered in a CL KO round one of the greatest individual performances of all time Its not knee jerk or exaggerated You would be really really hard pressed to find many players(ever) who could score those goals,with that all round devastating link up play and dribbling against a top 10 team in the world Let alone a 22 year old who has Probably not even entered his prime
A key advantage Mbappe has as well is that he's playing for a potentially NT golden generation. They've already been to the 2016 EURO final and won the 2018 WC, of course, and their core is still good for another 2 tournaments, with some very exciting players in the pipeline as well. Mbappe could be a beneficiary, and face off a French NT that is a dominant force throughout his entire prime.
Let us specify, we're talking of Mbappé right now since his hat-trick at Barça. -without Neymar on the team. -with Verratti in a more axial position. -against a moribund Barça that can't control a match at midfield anymore and most of all with no defense. -with a duo Dest (young player) + (old) Piqué on the Barça's defense right hand (Mbappé played on the left in this smatch). Both defenders were subbed out btw. ... in the peculiar context that we know. But if it can bring Mbappé back on track, good enough. It's still a CL R16, though. As for the international level, other NT's don't look stronger than France at the moment. So, we'll see. It's hard to keep winning at this level though : continuing as they did lately maybe won't be enough to win the "pass" each time. Maybe the team will have to be a bit more playful for it goes through (but not too much, and that they know how to do it). With a Mbappé on form, France has the ultimate weapon on counter-attacks, obviously. While the rest of the team should be solid enough. If everybody's here : because it may be hazardous to launch new players for the Euro, at the back especially... but again, other teams may have some absentees, so... yeah... the context can help a team that has some experience like France have, too. Although their League is not as strong as in the past, Spain should line-up a good NT too. Obviously, Mbappé had to wake up one day or another (after this complicated post World Cup + lost CL final + that combination/ friendship with Neymar), and it's good that it happens some months prior to the Euro. Since this match was played, the critics about his decision making/ passing, all of sudden, are disappearing. About his effciency too, which was questionable as well, lately (since 2 years), in spite of the stats.
6 non-PK Shots + 4 Key Passes = 10 Shot contributions (out of 16) = 62.5% Overall Contribution. 1.8 npk Goals+ Assists expected contribution out of 2.3 expected goals = +75% 10 Dribbles (out of 11) by OPTA, 9 (out of 13) by Statsbomb But it is not the only thing, he also produced the most valueable actions in the build up play according VAEP metric (usually it is Neymar and/or Di Maria) Not Neymar, not Di María. Mbappé as the VAEP per 90 leader today and the main threat for FC Barcelona. Moise Kean 🧐 pic.twitter.com/mON311gL4A— FCB Analytics (@fcbanalyticspb) February 16, 2021 Complete offensive weapon... Mbappe is not only goals and assists. It seems that only Sancho can rival him in level. (Haland would be more of a pure striker, not so involved). and without Neymar/Di Maria I think he plays way better, he is forced to deliver. He is now 22 years old and arguably already the best player in the world. Across the domestic seasons in the European Top 5 Leagues, Mbappe has *the* largest positive impact on his team's chance creation rates as of this moment. He is the best offensive chance creator in the world, right now.Tonight should not be a surprise. #BarcaPsg pic.twitter.com/kFQN3Pp7xK— Hugh Klein (@macro_football) February 16, 2021 Btw, his plus minus rating has been better than Neymar since 17/18 I think. His goals and assists too. He just has the bad luck to play with an all-time great and attention whore player like Neymar (who has quality enough to be the best in the world too and is very very underrated in terms of what he can do on the pitch) and have a team, although excellent, poor balanced (team was much more balanced vs Barcelona than it is with Neymar, Di Maria etc IN). And the criticism is well deserved, he has been frustrated (maybe because he is not "the guy" on the team) and has been more selfish than usual. But the level is there. The French generation is good, but Messi's Argentine generation was also very good (even if the fans says it is not), the difference is that Mbappe has already had a very significant World Cup, being probably the best player in France in 2018 as well. Goals, assists and lots of runs and dribbling. Btw, I would like to see his GoalImpact compared to some other players there.
I have a hard time accepting that Mbappe is already the world's best player (due to some of the things already discussed here in this thread), but I honestly think he might have a case, mainly because Messi and Ronaldo are now obviously a shadow of their former selves. I would say though that even if he is the best player in the world at the moment, I don't think it's clear cut or a distance winner like the days of Ronaldo and Messi domination.