Post-match: Holland - Lessons Learned (R)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 3, 2010.

  1. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's also notable that one reason Donovan is better off on the wing is that when a team does have the ability and resolve to mark him out of the game, it takes away a lot less space for the U.S. when they do it out on the wing than when they do it in the middle of the park.
     
  2. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The problem is quite simple, though:

    nullify Donovan = nullify USA.

    The Dutch did something different, though: they didn't exactly "mark him out of the game" but positioned themselves around him so he had very few open spaces to pass or to get passes.

    More effective, gives them more space, and doesn't force them to move two or three guys to the side to mark Donovan.

    In this game, the Dutch found the ideal way to disappear LD from the game without actually wasting players. Since most other US players don't move off the ball that much, nor cover so much area, the secret is positioning.

    Right now Slovenia, Algeria and England have taken notes on that. Of course, with Dempsey and Davies (who move more off the ball and cover more area), it may be different.

    Still, I think this is the type of "marking" LD will face in the WC: not really marking, but positioning the players between him and the USA players to whom he could make a pass --or from whom he could get a pass.

    PS: Watching the game again, I've noticed that and that the Dutch did pay a price for it: they lacked fluidity, since Wiel, Heitinga and Van Bommel (and Affelay) had to keep their positions relative to where LD was.
     
  3. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    The first time he faced up on Elia he was beaten by a very quick move, but recovered and was pressuring Elia when he got off a cross that wasn't very dangerous (btw can you tell me how leadfoot Spector was able to recover:D. He was beaten once more toward the end line and Elia cut inside on him once and ran into the covering defender.

    Having said that I suggest you go to you tube and pull up videos of Lennon, Valencia, Shawn Wright Phillips, Ribery, or any other quick winger. You'll see them getting behind some pretty good defenders. They're able to beat quicker defenders than Spector. If they couldn't we'd have quite a few more 0-0 world cup games. You cannot cover them one v one. You have to play team defense against them.

    Its the same thing as a good wide receiver beating a good corner back. The wide receiver knows where he's going the corner back doesn't. Thats the reason good receivers are double covered.
     
  4. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    It's going to be a team defense theme on the left side when our left back faces Lennon (or Walcott or Wright-Phillips). The left mid and the central mid on that side are going to have to position themselves to help the leftback whenever possible.
     
  5. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    In the first half there were multiple times when the Dutch were playing out of the back that you would see Bradley pressing beyond the center circle. When our defense isn't pressuring we do tend to set our second line of 4 at about the 25 yard line.


    So I went to look up the Prozone stats for these games and 1. we don't clearly outposses all but the weakest teams 2. but our passing percentage is much higher 3. and it's higher because Prozone removes passes it deems clearances from its pass completion stats whereas FIFA doesn't.

    In the USA vs. Spain game the US had 41 clearances to Spain's 7. Against Italy it was 28 to 17. In that Italy game we had a pass completion rate of 79.4% according to Prozone (which is inline with our % in the Hex against CONCACAF teams) but our true pass completion rate was probably 71%. So against the reigning world champion, a man down for 57+ minutes our pass completion rate of 71% is about the same as it is when playing away against T&T. What does that say?


    Holland played with two holding midfielders so that they could be sure they had cover against this. If Dempsey had been on the other side and we could have like say, passed it from one side to the other on a regular basis that could have caused them problems and opened up the middle for Bradley to surge through and maybe Jozy to drop deep.
     
  6. Federation Politics

    Federation Politics New Member

    Nov 17, 2009
    This game showed we need an in-form Beasley in SA. When he's playing well DMB is an x-factor for us, a catalyst, creating scoring chances out of nothing, providing good service, starting counter-attacks with his defending. It really bothered me that he received so much criticism at the Confed when his coach played him out of position, out of form against the best teams in the world. So if you thought he was an embarrassment last summer and never wanted to see him again I hope you learned a lesson by watching this game. And I hope you saw him with the Rangers over the weekend when he absolutely smoked two defenders in the box.
     
  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Definitely, Beasley at LB is a very bad idea. Now Bob knows, I guess.

    Players who create space are needed. Players who run while off the ball. Dempsey, Davies are like that. Beasley, in form, used to be like that.

    BB has to focus on action while off the ball. The good teams never stop, the players keep moving to position themselves for a pass. If in the WC Donovan is going to be marked by positioning, as I think he will (the whole world knows he is the brains of the USMNT), then players who move all the time are needed.
     
  8. orcrist

    orcrist Member+

    Jun 11, 2005
    Bay Area, California, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a very interesting and insightful post. Not sure you're right, but you certainly seem right. Repped.

    Edit: Oh... seems I've repped you recently. IOU?
     
  9. EL MONO MARIO

    EL MONO MARIO Member

    Apr 9, 2002
    Montevideo, Uruguay
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Alejandro Bedoya must be in the WC roster.. Much more composed on the ball than some veteran nats.
     
  10. Adam Zebrowski

    Adam Zebrowski New Member

    May 28, 1999
    this notion that davies is gonna pull a miracle and be playing like the old davies needs to be put in perspective...

    very unlikely...

    it'll be dempsey with altidore, put all your focus on donovan and it's a risk...

    algeria and slovenia AIN'T the netherlands...

    bedoya can be a darkhorse...BB seems to like him...

    the public dogs BB, yet BB puts this kid on the fast track...

    maybe BB does know something
     
  11. fingersave

    fingersave Member

    Sep 28, 2009
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bedoya wants it and it shows. I'm surprised at how quickly the Nats brought him into camp and then onto the field. I guess the Nats scouts are a little more savvy than I give them credit for. Bedoya can play. He's another young player that gives the midfield real depth for the next cycle.

    Renken 16
    Luis Gil 16
    Lletget 17
    Adu 20
    Bedoya 22
    Torres 22
    Bradley 22
    Rogers 22
    Edu 23
    Gaven 23
    Holden 24
    Kljiestan 24
    Feilhaber 25
     
  12. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I wouldnt give them so much credit, he just did the most he could with his little minutes vs. honduras. All his touches and off the ball runs were crisp and with good thought.

    He is a smart player, and unlike torres, he is a player that runs up and down and up and down the field to cover area. This is what i feel attracts BB so much to him, is his ability to play 'his style', and thats why he feels there is little to no transistion needed to his approach to our NT.
     
  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Bedoya and Holden are other two players who have the brains ("football IQ") to keep moving off the ball with the right intention: putting themselves in position to get passes.
     
  14. fingersave

    fingersave Member

    Sep 28, 2009
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its important to be able to take what the coach tells you to do and to execute that as best as you can.

    If youre of the opinion that Torres is less able to do this, then your commentary would be more of a knock on Torres than a critique of Bedoya.
     
  15. FirstStar

    FirstStar Hustlin' for the USA

    Fulham Football Club
    Feb 1, 2005
    Time's Arrow
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two points above--

    First: As others have noted here, the USA is a very different team right now with Dempsey out there. He's dangerous and we need that. Moving him closer to the goal will be good for the USA, the issue has always been who should slot into his position. Holden was emerging as the answer, and now we are back to that question. Until we see Stu healthy and playing in the Prem again, this remains an open question. Perhaps Beasley, perhaps Feilhaber (although I'm not sold on either of these as 90 minute answers).

    Second-- Maybe Bedoya is great, maybe not, but there's no doubt that Bob should be placed in charge of identifying, scouting and developing talent for the USA. He's got an eye for that.
     
  16. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Its not a knock on the player. Just naturally Bedoya is used to the style of play BB wants compared to Torres, which its something that he isnt used to, and like i say its a easier fit for bedoya in BB's system where he wants to play compared to where he wants to play torres and how different it is to him, and how much trouble he has playing.

    Bedoya does alot of off the ball running and covering, which is bobs bread and butter defensive covering wise, Torres not so much.
     
  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    So, keeping the system used in the Confeds Cup:

    ---------------Howard-----------------
    Spector---DeMerit---Gooch---Bocanegra
    ---------Edu (DM)--Bradley (CM)-------
    Holden------------------------Donovan
    -----------Dempsey-------------------
    -------------------Jozy---------------

    With the following changes:

    Edu <> Clark
    Holden <> Dempsey
    Dempsey <> Davies

    Bradley as box-to-box CM will do the running through the middle. Donovan and Holden on the sides. They need to be top form, all three.

    IF Holden cannot make it, Beasley may be the answer, moving LD to the right and putting him on the left.
     
  18. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    by changes, do you mean substitutions?
     
  19. Grumpy in LA

    Grumpy in LA Bringing It Since 1807™

    Sep 10, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he means that those would be the players changed from June 2009 to June 2010 (rather than those subbed during any upcoming match).
     
  20. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Two of those "changes" are because Davies may not be match fit for the WC.

    The other, because Edu is back and I think he may be in better form than Clark come June.
     


  21. You are right about that and what worries me is that top clubs (like EPL clubs ) sign our best youth players at an increasing dropping age that makes them grow up and nurtured not in the Dutch fashion but in the shit ways of the English. One hallmark of the Dutch way of soccer life is the development of spatial awareness. The instinctively sensing where you should be or where someone else is. That isnot tought in the non Dutch youth systems. Actually it isnot even a predetermined thing in the Dutch youth system, it is a way of life that comes naturally and that is only the case because we donot stress results like winning in the first years. It is all about developing the skills and the intuitive mind set. We are a small country and by that measure we over achieve for decades on the soccer front. We do so because we somehow manage to make spatial awareness an intgral part of the Dutch soccer mind set, combined with the tactical saviness we also in that process embedded in the way we think about soccer.
    So for instance the Dutch defender Bruma, who was stolen from Feyenoord at a young age by Chelsea has no clue how to play in the Dutch tradition as he was out before he learned to apply it with Dutch players around him. He isnot fine tuned to Dutch players and Dutch opponents ( you learn as much Dutch play style from opponents as from team mates) as he is only exposed to the English style since leaving Feyenoord. So he is a great talent and a great defender, but it is questionable if he will be a contribution to the Orange team as the defenders were that came through the Dutch ranks, before heading abroad.
     
  22. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    That isnt just holland, but that style of soccer which is touch and go futsal style which holand plays, is similar to latin american style teams.

    You can tell with players like Sneijder(sp) and other players, by watching how they stop the ball with the bottom of the cleats and roll it alot, you can see they still have futsal instincts.

    I think of extreme examples like Davids, and his brother that futsal master.
     
  23. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    Practically every professional player recently has adopted the annoying habbit of stopping the ball with the bottom of their cleats and rolling it out in front of them, for no apparent reason. It has nothing to do with futsal. It's a fad that has been annoying me to no end lately.
     
  24. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Actually, it has alot to do with futsal! Thats how you are taught to control the ball, and roll it across the field. Thats how i was taught, and how i picked up to playing in door, as i watched the spanish futsal leagues saturday mornings on TVE broadcasts on direct tv years ago lol. It works pretty well, and lets you transition alot quicker and to see passes/shots faster then doing the instep stop, and shots (for me at least).

    Check this out, this is one of the best futsal players in the world, Jermaine Vanenberg (apparently Edgar Davids bro??), check out how he traps the ball on passes with teh bottom of his foot and how he can transition passes and stuff real fast by using the bottom of his foot.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-drQEALN0iA"]YouTube- JERMAINE VANENBURG (EDGAR DAVIDS BROTHER)[/ame]
     
  25. Grumpy in LA

    Grumpy in LA Bringing It Since 1807™

    Sep 10, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's probably both. A lot of players with futsal background (or other background that stresses close ball control) will do it, and then other people will see players with good skills doing it and therefore imitate it.
     

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