Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I was wrong, only Marca selects Hierro as the best defender of La Liga 1994-95. The averages of Don Balón position him behind Hristo Vidakovic. In that closed comparison it was what inclined me towards one of the sides (Amavisca is included in their ideal team anyway), so I'll just change Paulo Sousa for Möller.
  2. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Yes, I think that the adjustment of the periods to analyze in Tom's alternative threads makes the South American cases can be seen favored or not, not that there really is any injustice about it (how could it slide).

    I just don't vote because it's difficult for me cut seasons for many cases.
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I understand, but if you did start voting for the 23 players and not just the TOTS I think that would be good of course. Maybe there are some cases like for Eastern Europe, where there are player ratings for the whole calendar year available but they can't be seen/found for the individual competitions, or where articles describe players form over the whole calendar year so I could see how that would make it harder (msioux found some such ratings for Argentina for 1969 and 1970 for example, but it might have been they were split between competitions but also summarised at the end of the year so it might depend on which articles can be found etc). In a lot of ways judging all players to pretty much the same calendar does make sense though, and since we are not doing it by calendar years for Europe (as Tom never was) then adjusting to match South American 'seasons' to European ones does seem the best compromise as long as whole competitions are not split up, even though the cycle of football in South America was probably always seen more as calendar year based pretty much overall (in contrast to most of Europe).

    I should have typed Zico's season for 1982/83 in my reply before, not just 1982 (I'm sure you understood, but just to clarify for others - I think I deleted the /83 by mistake when in a hurry to post!).
    Perú FC repped this.
  4. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    The list includes practically all the best of the year, but I'm surprised you do not include Weah between any of the top 5 places. That year he was the leader in obtaining prestigious individual awards ...
  5. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    These were the individual awards won by Weah in 1995:

    - African Footballer of the Year (by CAF)
    - BBC African Footballer of the Year
    - Ballon d'Or
    - FIFA World Player of the Year
    - Onze d'Or

    However, all refer to his annual period (1995) and not to his season (1994-95) and I'm pretty sure that his case got a big boost because of his bombastic first semester with AC Milan (which belongs to the following list).

    For the specific period of his season I think Weah starred in brilliant chapters in the UEFA Champions League for Paris Saint-Germain, but he doesn't seem to have had the same prominence or effectiveness at the local level in Ligue 1, Coupe de France or Coupe de la Ligue. I think his case for this list could be in the top 10 after my first 5 positions (next to Savicevic and Vialli).

    By the way, that first semester with AC Milan is part of a brilliant first campaign in Italy that did give him his first recognition based on the period of his season (his inclusion in the ESM Team of the Year in 1996), so I think his case is more solid for the 1996 list and encompasses a large part of those individual awards at the end of 1995 (actually, he occupies my first position in the following list).
    AD78 and PDG1978 repped this.
  6. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    I imagined. Actually many of the discrepancies we are having are due to a temporary issue. In my case (perhaps erroneously) the merits accumulated in 1995 include the 1994-95 season plus the prizes awarded at the end of 1995; In the same way, the merits accumulated in 1996, would include the entire 1995-96 season plus the prizes awarded in 1996. It is a practical matter; How can we discern how many votes of the Golden Ball or the FIFA World Player are awarded for the merits throughout the 1994-95 season or the 1995-96 season? In that sense, in other leagues there is no such problem, because the season coincides with the natural year ...
    Perú FC repped this.
  7. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    To be honest, I have not had that problem because I have practically not taking into account any individual prize based on a chronological year for most Europeans (and sometimes for Argentina and Mexico (that in this period they had European calendars)). I barely have them as guidelines.

    I also think that their results have strange mixtures of time (sometimes I think they reflect both the chronological year and the season period in the same vote), so I'm a bit reluctant to keep them very much in mind for this exercise.
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think we have to try to discern it the best we can mate, if you understand what I mean. To try and look into it (using footage, stats, storyline, reports, average ratings, memories etc etc - as much as we can basically). Taking a more recent example: I guess we shouldn't be tempted to elevate Cristiano Ronaldo for the 2012/13 season based on the Play-Off game vs Sweden (even though it was a big consideration for the Ballon d'Or voting).

    I agree with Peru that Weah is a prime candidate for 95/96, although also for one of the best Champions League performers in 94/95.
  9. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    I would like to be able to give points of view in this thread, but for this I need you to tell me briefly what criteria you use to select the players that you will highlight. Particularly, according to the time and sources available I modify the criteria; for example, unlike you, in these years, in the absence of statistics such as whoscore for example and the madness that would be to aim ratings and more ratings of multiple newspapers and magazines, I rely on awards, magazine rankings, teams of year, votes of the ESM ... But maybe there are other criteria that you manage. If it can be, clarify it and maybe I can try to help.
  10. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #1710 Perú FC, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
    I basically start by creating a map of the season. Similar to this:


    UEFA Champions League

    1. Juventus, 2. Ajax, SF Panathinaikos, SF Nantes
    QF B. Dortmund, QF Legia Warsaw, QF R. Madrid, QF Spartak Moscow

    Goal: Litmanen 9, Del Piero 6, Raúl 6, Warzycha 6, Kluivert 5
    Nikiforov 5, Ouédec 5, Ravanelli 5, Newell 4, Zamorano 4...

    UEFA Cup

    1. B. Munich, 2. Bordeaux, SF Barcelona, SF Slavia Prague

    Goal: Klinsmann 15, Ronaldo 6, Nilis 5, Nedved 5, Scholl 5
    Balbo 4, Casiraghi 4, Hobsch 4, Lennon 4, Moller 4...

    UEFA Cup Winners' Cup

    1. Paris SG, 2. Rapid Wien, SF Feyenoord, SF Deportivo La Coruña

    Goal: Samec 9, Bebeto 6, Jancker 6, Bibercic 5, Blinker 4
    Djorkaeff 4, Loko 4, Obiku 4, Stumpf 4, Thom 4...

    Intercontinental Cup

    1. Ajax, 2. Gremio (for the Brazilian team counts the previous list)

    Official Man of the Match: Blind

    1995-96 Premier League

    1. Manchester Utd. 82, 2. Newcastle Utd. 78, 3. Liverpool 71, 4. Aston Villa 63
    5. Arsenal 63, 6. Everton 61, 7. Blackburn Rovers, 8. Tottenham

    Goal: Shearer 31, Fowler 28, L. Ferdinand 25, Yorke 17, Sheringham 16
    Armstrong 15, Kanchelskis 15, Wright 15, Cantona 14, Collymore 14...

    Player of the Month: Fowler (2), Ginola, Yeboah, Sinclair, Lee, Collymore
    Yorke, Cantona, Kanchelskis

    PFA' Players Player of the Year: L. Ferdinand
    PFA Young Player of the Year: Fowler
    FWA Footballer of the Year: Cantona
    Premier League Player of the Season: Schmeichel


    This map should includes most of Europe's major leagues and competitions by then (Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Scotland, etc.), also some local cups (FA Cup, Coppa Italia, DFB-Pokal, Coupe de France, Copa del Rey, etc.), and the main continental cups of South America (Copa Libertadores, Recopa Sudamericana, etc.), the state tournaments and Brazilian Brasileirao, Argentine Torneo Apertura and Clausura, etc.

    This map starts simple, but I'm adding deep details (as information about assists and statistics of performances (from DBS Calcio, for example, and then WhoScored, Squawka, Marca, Guerin d'Oro, Etoile d'Or, etc.), various awards, considerations, etc.). For example, for Spain I add Don Balón Awards:

    Best Spanish Player: Caminero
    Best Foreign Player: Mijatovic
    Best Veteran Player: Francisco
    Best Breakthrough Player: de la Peña
    Best Spanish Player in the Euro: Sergi
    Best XI: Molina, Cristobal, Pochettino, Santi, Sergi, Simeone, Caminero
    Lardín, Pantic, Raúl, Mijatovic

    Or from Germany I take into account the Rangliste of Kicker and its Team of Year (published by Gregoriak here).

    Awards as South American Footballer of the Year and the Equipo Ideal de América I also add them. The more years go by there is more detailed information and I usually add particular information from bloggers and independent analysts. This stage takes a long time, I think, because there is a lot to read and watch and not everything is outlined, but there are comments and suggestions that I try to filter and estimate.

    The end result is a kind of very long and complex data map, however, there are usually certain patterns that I can notice for an elite group of players.

    To this I add the useful information that I can extract from here, BigSoccer, especially from the comments that provide very good and elaborate points of view, such as those of PDG1978 or PuckvanHeel, other threads with valuable information and estimates such as some rankings published by msioux75, Gregoriak or comme (he has specific threads about the best players for several seasons and other European competitions).

    I've memories since the 1990's, so I use my own experience and reinforce it with this elaborate map, I review each case in terms of skills, production, recognitions and records and try to give them a scale. Little by little all that tangle is taking shape and in the repetition I will establish better my feelings and choices.

    Of course, it's not a perfect exercise and it's quite subjective, but I think that the accuracy is better than the results of the Ballon d'Or eliminating (or trying to eliminate) the influence of votes by inertia based on the fame or previous level of a specific player.

    More or less that's how I'm doing this elaboration.
  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    This is my final revision of the 1996 list:

    OUT: BARESI, Franco (Italy & AC Milan)
    OUT: RONALDO (Brazil & PSV Eindhoven)
    OUT: SCHOLL, Mehmet (Germany & Bayern Munich)

    IN: CAMINERO, José Luis (Spain & Atlético de Madrid)
    IN: SCHMEICHEL, Peter (Denmark & Manchester United)
    IN: SIMEONE, Diego (Argentina & Atlético de Madrid)

    Top 23

    BATISTUTA, Gabriel (Argentina & Fiorentina)
    BLANC, Laurent (France & Auxerre)
    BLIND, Danny (Netherlands & Ajax)
    CAMINERO, José Luis (Spain & Atlético de Madrid)
    CANTONA, Éric (France & Manchester United)
    CHILAVERT, José Luis (Paraguay & Vélez Sarsfield)
    DEL PIERO, Alessandro (Italy & Juventus)
    DESAILLY, Marcel (France & AC Milan)
    GINOLA, David (France & Newcastle United)
    GULLIT, Ruud (Netherlands & Chelsea)
    KANCHELSKIS, Andrei (Russia & Everton)
    KLINSMANN, Jürgen (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    LITMANEN, Jari (Finland & Ajax)
    MALDINI, Paolo (Italy & AC Milan)
    MIJATOVIC, Predrag (Yugoslavia & Valencia)
    ORTEGA, Ariel (Argentina & River Plate)
    SAMMER, Matthias (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    SAVICEVIC, Dejan (Yugoslavia & AC Milan)
    SCHMEICHEL, Peter (Denmark & Manchester United)
    SHEARER, Alan (England & Blackburn Rovers)
    SIMEONE, Diego (Argentina & Atlético de Madrid)
    SUKER, Davor (Croatia & Sevilla)
    WEAH, George (Liberia & AC Milan)

    Podium: 1. George Weah, 2. Jari Litmanen and 3. Matthias Sammer
    Contenders: 4. Éric Cantona and 5. Predrag Mijatovic

    Honorable Mentions

    AGUINAGA, Álex (Ecuador & Necaxa)
    ALBERT, Philippe (Belgium & Newcastle United)
    ALBERTINI, Demetrio (Italy & AC Milan)
    ARCE, Francisco (Paraguay & Gremio)
    BAÍA, Vítor (Portugal & Porto)
    BARESI, Franco (Italy & AC Milan)
    BEARDSLEY, Peter (England & Newcastle United)
    BEBETO (Brazil & Deportivo La Coruña)
    BIERHOFF, Oliver (Germany & Udinese)
    CHIESA, Enrico (Italy & Sampdoria)
    CRESPO, Hernán (Argentina & River Plate)
    DAVIDS, Edgar (Netherlands & Ajax)
    DE BOER, Frank (Netherlands & Ajax)
    DE BOER, Ronald (Netherlands & Ajax)
    DESCHAMPS, Didier (France & Juventus)
    DJALMINHA (Brazil & Palmeiras)
    DJORKAEFF, Youri (France & Paris Saint-Germain)
    EILTS, Dieter (Germany & Werder Bremen)
    FERDINAND, Les (England & Newcastle United)
    FERRARA, Ciro (Italy & Juventus)
    FOWLER, Robbie (England & Liverpool)
    FRANCESCOLI, Enzo (Uruguay & River Plate)
    GAMARRA, Carlos (Paraguay & Internacional)
    GASCOIGNE, Paul (England & Rangers)
    GIGGS, Ryan (Wales & Manchester United)
    HÄSSLER, Thomas (Germany & Karlsruher)
    HELMER, Thomas (Germany & Bayern Múnich)
    KANU, Nwankwo (Nigeria & Ajax)
    KEANE, Roy (Ireland & Manchester United)
    KIKO (Spain & Atlético de Madrid)
    KINKLADZE, Georgi (Georgia & Manchester City)
    KLUIVERT, Patrick (Netherlands & Ajax)
    KOHLER, Jürgen (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    KÖPKE, Andreas (Germany & Eintracht Frankfurt)
    LAMA, Bernard (France & Paris Saint-Germain)
    LARDÍN, Jordi (Spain & Espanyol)
    LAUDRUP, Brian (Denmark & Rangers)
    LEE, Rob (England & Newcastle United)
    McMANAMAN, Steve (England & Liverpool)
    MOLINA, José Francisco (Spain & Atlético de Madrid)
    MÖLLER, Andreas (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    NEDVED, Pavel (Czech Republic & Sparta Prague)
    NEVILLE, Gary (England & Manchester United)
    NILIS, Luc (Belgium & PSV Eindhoven)
    NUNES, Paulo (Brazil & Gremio)
    PANTIC, Milinko (Yugoslavia & Atlético de Madrid)
    PENEV, Lyuboslav (Bulgaria & Atlético de Madrid)
    PERUZZI, Angelo (Italy & Juventus)
    PIZZI, Juan Antonio (Spain & Tenerife)
    POBORSKY, Karel (Czech Republic & Slavia Prague)
    PROTTI, Igor (Italy & Bari)
    RAÍ (Brazil & Paris Saint-Germain)
    RAÚL (Spain & Real Madrid)
    REIZIGER, Michael (Netherlands & Ajax)
    ROBERTO CARLOS (Brazil & Inter Milan)
    RONALDO (Brazil & PSV Eindhoven)
    RUI COSTA (Portugal & Fiorentina)
    SCHOLL, Mehmet (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    SEAMAN, David (England & Arsenal)
    SENSINI, Roberto (Argentina & Parma)
    SERGI (Spain & Barcelona)
    SIGNORI, Giuseppe (Italy & Lazio)
    VAN DER SAR, Edwin (Netherlands & Ajax)
    WARZYCHA, Krzysztof (Poland & Panathinaikos)
    YORKE, Dwight (Trinidad and Tobago & Aston Villa)
    ZIDANE, Zinedine (France & Girondins de Bordeaux)
    ZIEGE, Christian (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    ZORC, Michael (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)

    All Tops 23
    Honorable Mentions (1920-1984)
    Honorable Mentions (1985- )
  12. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    Undoubtedly, it is an incredibly exhaustive and unquestionable work because you gather a large set of statistical data. Congratulations for that and I hope you keep publishing these valuable lists.
  13. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    FC Nantes
    Since Nantes was eliminated by the eventual winner of the Final, have beaten them once + due to the alphabetical order, Nantes must be cited before Pana.
    Don't mind about the groups stage result as Nantes v Pana was on the last day match when the only goal was for Nantes to qualify and for Pana to keep the 1st place (so the 0-0).
  14. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Good input. The order in which they appear in the short tournaments on my maps is only referential according to the instances reached:

    1st, 2nd, Semifinalist, Semifinalist
    Quarterfinalist, Quarterfinalist, Quarterfinalist, Quarterfinalist

    Just to give me general insights to the competition in every season while I'm comparing sources watching videos and choosing players.
  15. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I added Rivaldo to the 1996 Honorable Mentions. Although that season he only played half a year for Palmeiras (he was transferred to Spain at mid-year) I was impressed by his level shown in the Campeonato Paulista (along with Djalminha). His team, despite being fleeting, seems to be remembered as one of the best in its history and established a goal scorer record.

    This is my final revision of the 1997 list:

    OUT: FIGO, Luís (Portugal & Barcelona)
    OUT: REDONDO, Fernando (Argentina & Real Madrid)
    OUT: SAMMER, Matthias (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)

    IN: BECKHAM, David (England & Manchester United)
    IN: DEL PIERO, Alessandro (Italy & Juventus)
    IN: DJORKAEFF, Youri (France & Inter Milan)

    Top 23

    BECKHAM, David (England & Manchester United)
    BERGKAMP, Dennis (Netherlands & Arsenal)
    DEL PIERO, Alessandro (Italy & Juventus)
    DESCHAMPS, Didier (France & Juventus)
    DJORKAEFF, Youri (France & Inter Milan)
    EDMUNDO (Brazil & Vasco da Gama)
    HIERRO, Fernando (Spain & Real Madrid)
    JUNINHO Paulista (Brazil & Middlesbrough)
    KOHLER, Jürgen (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    LUIS ENRIQUE (Spain & Barcelona)
    MIJATOVIC, Predrag (Yugoslavia & Real Madrid)
    RAÚL (Spain & Real Madrid)
    RIVALDO (Brazil & Deportivo La Coruña)
    ROBERTO CARLOS (Brazil & Real Madrid)
    ROMÁRIO (Brazil & Flamengo)
    RONALDO (Brazil & Barcelona)
    SALAS, Marcelo (Chile & River Plate)
    SEEDORF, Clarence (Netherlands & Real Madrid)
    SHEARER, Alan (England & Newcastle United)
    SUKER, Davor (Croatia & Real Madrid)
    THURAM, Lilian (France & Parma)
    ZIDANE, Zinedine (France & Juventus)
    ZOLA, Gianfranco (Italy & Chelsea)

    Podium: 1. Ronaldo, 2. Gianfranco Zola and 3. Davor Suker

    Honorable Mentions

    ADAMS, Tony (England & Arsenal)
    ALFONSO (Spain & Real Betis)
    ANDERSON, Sonny (Brazil & AS Monaco)
    ANGLOMA, Jocelyn (France & Inter Milan)
    AYALA, Celso (Paraguay & River Plate)
    BA, Ibrahim (France & Girondins de Bordeaux)
    BALAKOV, Krasimir (Bulgaria & Stuttgart)
    BATTY, David (England & Newcastle United)
    BIERHOFF, Oliver (Germany & Udinese)
    BOBIC, Fredi (Germany & Stuttgart)
    CANNAVARO, Fabio (Italy & Parma)
    CANTONA, Éric (France & Manchester United)
    DENÍLSON (Brazil & Sao Paulo)
    DI LIVIO, Angelo (Italy & Juventus)
    ÉLBER, Giovane (Brazil & Stuttgart)
    FERDINAND, Les (England & Newcastle United)
    FERRARA, Ciro (Italy & Juventus)
    FIGO, Luís (Portugal & Barcelona)
    FINIDI George (Nigeria & Real Betis)
    FOWLER, Robbie (England & Liverpool)
    FRANCESCOLI, Enzo (Uruguay & River Plate)
    GALLARDO, Marcelo (Argentina & River Plate)
    GIOVANNI (Brazil & Barcelona)
    GUARDIOLA, Josep (Spain & Barcelona)
    GUERRERO, Julen (Spain & Athletic Bilbao)
    IKPEBA, Victor (Nigeria & AS Monaco)
    INZAGHI, Filippo (Italy & Atalanta)
    JARDEL, Mário (Brazil & Porto)
    JARNI, Robert (Croatia & Real Betis)
    KAHN, Oliver (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    KEANE, Roy (Ireland & Manchester United)
    KIRSTEN, Ulf (Germany & Bayer Leverkusen)
    KLOS, Stefan (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    KÖPKE, Andreas (Germany & Olympique de Marseille)
    LAUDRUP, Brian (Denmark & Rangers)
    LEHMANN, Jens (Germany & Schalke 04)
    LEONARDO (Brazil & Paris Saint-Germain)
    MANCINI, Roberto (Italy & Sampdoria)
    MARTINS, Corentin (France & Deportivo La Coruña)
    McMANAMAN, Steve (England & Liverpool)
    MÖLLER, Andreas (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    MONTELLA, Vincenzo (Italy & Sampdoria)
    MONTERO, Paolo (Uruguay & Juventus)
    NAYBET, Noureddine (Morocco & Deportivo La Coruña)
    N'DORAM, Japhet (Chad & Nantes)
    NILIS, Luc (Belgium & PSV Eindhoven)
    PAGLIUCA, Gianluca (Italy & Inter Milan)
    PERUZZI, Angelo (Italy & Juventus)
    POLSTER, Toni (Austria & Köln)
    RAVANELLI, Fabrizio (Italy & Middlesbrough)
    REDONDO, Fernando (Argentina & Real Madrid)
    SAMMER, Matthias (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
    SCHMEICHEL, Peter (Denmark & Manchester United)
    SERGI (Spain & Barcelona)
    SOLANO, Nolberto (Peru & Sporting Cristal)
    SONGO'O, Jacques (Cameroon & Deportivo La Coruña)
    SÜKÜR, Hakan (Turkey & Galatasaray)
    THON, Olaf (Germany & Schalke 04)
    VERLAAT, Frank (Netherlands & Stuttgart)
    VERÓN, Juan Sebastián (Argentina & Sampdoria)
    VÍCTOR (Spain & Real Valladolid)
    VIEIRA, Patrick (France & Arsenal)
    WOSZ, Dariusz (Germany & Bochum)
    WRIGHT, Ian (England & Arsenal)

    All Tops 23
    Honorable Mentions (1920-1984)
    Honorable Mentions (1985- )
    Titanlux, AD78 and comme repped this.
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    With all due respect but Zola at #2 (8 goals, 9 assists in the league) looks a bit generous. I've seen others doubting whether he was world class, I don't agree with that, but do doubt to what extent he separated himself from others in his league (and although Cantona once again disappointed in an international setting, Bergkamp surely didn't with a great solo goal vs France for example).

    Yes Zola won the FWA award but not one of the others and was not in the PFA team of the year (although at the time it was not favorable for #10 players to get in). Not saying he wasn't elite but #2 might be somewhat generous or open for contention in terms of end product and/or influence.

    Sure though Chelsea's spell as a consistent top six side (with sole exception of 2015-16) started with Zola, although they were fifth at the moment he played his first game (the 13th round) and sixth at the end of the season.


    Romario in this for 1997 is also typical but won't dwell over that (again).
    carlito86 repped this.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Only three dutchmen mentioned (ironically, two of them not a starter for the national team) and only one for Portugal's best ever generation.... Eight for England, thirteen for Germany in a relative down year. Really?

    Uruguay had a country ELO of 27 at the time (the worst NED ever had since the 1970s was 15th in 1984) but still gets two in...
  18. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    What I agree is that Zola does not seem to have a consecrating season (like those of other second places), and, actually, maybe I have a slightly better impression about his 1994-95 season with Parma (I ranked him 5th in the 1995 list), but what happens basically is that I do not convince other better candidates.

    That season I think it was marked by Ronaldo's explosion, but although I think there are many candidates for the top 23, I do not find any other strong case that stand out clearly on that bulky group, at least I do not notice a round case.

    At the end of the year the Ballon d'Or positioned as Ronaldo's escorts to Mijatovic and Zidane. Adjusting the time to the 1996-97 season at club level, I think Mijatovic fell with respect with his previous season, at least as star and individual figure, although he played a very good tandem with Suker and was very prolific in his international year. Meanwhile, I think that the first season of Zidane with Juventus already showed jewels of enormous quality, but it was also one of his most irregular in Italy (that probably explains that, despite being nominated as Serie A Foreign Footballer of the Year, in sources dedicated to the average performance (like Guerin d'Oro or DBS Calcio) he does not appear so dominant).

    I'm not too sure about Bergkamp. His finesse is remarkable, but I feel that he did not reach such an impressive level as in the following season, does not seem to stand out exceptionally in the FA Premier League at any specific point (he was not nominated in any official award). I think it's possible that only thinking about the club season Ian Wright star in Arsenal's season and highlight a greater empowerment of Vieira at times. I don't see him very near to the podium (if that suggested).

    I thought of Roberto Carlos and Thuram, maybe more in the first, but I'm not so sure about his balance despite being so spectacular in attacking actions.
  19. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Really. At the beginning of the mapping I certainly keep in mind the balance about the highest rated teams and the best players numerically, but I feel that case by case they do not always coincide. There is a reason, as there are different fronts the cases may be scattered.

    For example, one of the Dutch you should refer to as a non-starter with Netherlands (and not even a member of his frequent squad) is Verlaat, but it seems to have been a pillar of Stuttgart that did very well in Bundesliga (was one of the entertainers of the local competition) and won the DFB-Pokal. Kicker rated him with 2 International-Class semesters and is 9th in the ratings of DBS Calcio, which gives consistency to his case. I don't have that same evidence about another Dutch player (apart of Bergkamp and Seedorf, both in the top 23), maybe Davids, but I'm not sure.

    Overmars had an abrupt interruption due to injury.

    It's similar with the Portuguese because although you mention their "Golden Generation", in that precise season and internationally (Portugal had an irregular year that led him to be out of the 1998 World Cup) I think that not much since. I also think Paulo Sousa and Rui Costa (also Vítor Baía) declined with respect to previous seasons at club level.
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    What did Zola do that was so much better? Zola his end product (goals, assists) was inferior, though his team awareness was very good. The main difference in Zola his favor is the FA Cup (but typically Arsenal went out vs Leeds in a match where he didn't play, unlike the other star players, just as the League Cup match vs Liverpool, they also started conceding goals in the UEFA Cup after he was forced to leave the field with injury) and Zola his famous England match, but Bergkamp had a great solo goal against the famous French backline (although that was a friendly). Arsenal finished 9 points ahead in the league table, and he was a major help behind Wright competing for the topscorer title (no Chelsea player scored more than 9 league goals). Zola was possibly slightly better but not by an enormous amount. Who else is a candidate for #2 is a more difficult question though.

    Once again you reveal your systematic disdain. We had one of the best national teams in the world at the time (proven a year later in the World Cup, for some like Valdano and Menotti we were even the best playing team) but folks like you and dearman (beckenbauer greater football personality than cruijff) are on a mission to erase the contribution and innovations from history. Three players in, given what other countries have (a multitude of that), fits in a long going pattern by you.

    Where they were robbed yes. The FIFA friends decided a World Cup without darling Germany was unacceptable and devised a plot (same as the new Nations League, unacceptable they get relegated). At the moment of Rui Costa his completely bizarre red card, Portugal was going to the World Cup, full stop.

    Uruguay gets two spots by default, 'golden generation' Portugal only one...
  21. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    Hi. Starting from the basis of the extraordinary work that you do by making this list and that I have not analyzed it in depth, allow me a comment that you should not take as a criticism or disagreement on my part.
    As you say, in this season there is a lot of equality in the individual elite. I get the feeling that the undisputed figure of the season was Ronaldo, but below, a lot of balance. In the same way that Zola and Suker, we could say that they earned the same or higher merits others like Zidane, Roberto Carlos or even Raúl, Mijatovic or Bergkamp. I insist, I speak "by heart" and taking a look at the awards of the year. I would like to have done a more complete analysis of this season with ratings, titles and statistics in order to try to be more serious and convincing.
    One more little thing: Perhaps Batistuta could have reached this season even if it was only an honorable mention?
    Perú FC repped this.
  22. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    For the initial question I think the answer is clear: the question is wrong. In the previous answer I mean precisely that I do not notice a big difference after the 1st place, so you can deduce that so much better does not make sense.

    On the other hand, to think about replacing him necessarily we would have to decide who would be a better candidate for that 2nd position and we apparently agree that it is difficult to find another player for this podium behind him and Suker (now last I thought even in Rivaldo). It's not so clear to me, actually, that's why I did not add contenders to this podium.

    Apart of my own observation and perception about his quality brushstrokes this season, I had in mind how his status in England exploded very quickly and I certainly broke the parity/doubt just from how it was that he won the FWA Footballer of the Year (once Player of the Month), against the rivals he had and without having played the full season in the FA Premier League. Of course, the fact that the various awards do not coincide does not take him away from the doubt.

    To be honest, Suker is not a plumbed candidate either. For me he was the 2nd best striker in La Liga, but many media do not match so clearly placing Alfonso in front, who does not even in my top 23.
  23. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I think your point is very diffuse. Here you present a somewhat vague idea about the Dutch national team without precision in the facts and in the period of analysis.

    In 1997 Netherlands played 5 official matches. Won 3, 2 of them against a very weak San Marino and 1 against Belgium. Lost to Turkey in Istanbul and tied in Amsterdam. Also played 2 friendles, lost to France in Paris and beat South Africa in Johannesburg. That same national team reached a high level, more activity and better results in 1998, a period that does not belong at all to this last list.

    But more importantly, you continue to refer to teams and this exercise aims at the individual analysis of the players, so it would be more useful that you signal to the specific players (surely Dutch), not to such a general idea about the team (less mixing resentments of issues that do not matter here).

    If possible, what Dutch player seems to be missing and why?
  24. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I think this also fits into an imprecise idea for what this exercise requires.

    I mean to judge the players based on what they played and the evidence that it is possible to review and verify, not on assumptions and presupposed ideas ("Golden Generation", etc.). Portugal played 5 official matches and their victories were local against Albania, Armenia and Northern Ireland. Tied against Northern Ireland in Belfast and Germany in Berlin.

    Which Portuguese player has a round case that year other than Figo for a top 23 or to be close among the honorable mentions? I struggle to see any great performance, I have no evidence of Rui Costa in a great season at club level (it was a warm season for Fiorentina) and his international influence does not seem similar to that of a year before (1996). I'm open to individual suggestions focusing in their cases.
  25. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I agree. As I mentioned earlier, I think this is a very close season behind the 1st place, so to complete the podium I have based on details that are not so decisive. The awards and various recognitions seem to me scattered and the more solid ones seem to be better based on the chronological year.

    These were my objective considerations:

    Gianfranco Zola

    1996-97 Parma: 11 matches (2 goals)
    1996-97 Chelsea: 30 matches (12 goals)

    Chelsea was 6th in the FA Premier League
    Chelsea won the FA Cup
    Chelsea Player of the Year was Mark Hughes (?)

    FWA Footballer of the Year
    FA Premier League Player of the Month: December 1996

    1997 Italy: 9 matches (3 goals)
    x1 vs. Northern Ireland (Friendly)
    x1 vs. England (World Cup Qualification)
    x1 vs. Moldova (World Cup Qualification)

    From this perspective I have not noticed a much better option this season.

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